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RE: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping

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  • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
    You caught me regarding dens, and you ve got me thinking. I interpreted my council s edict to be that all Tour Permits that involved camping require a leader
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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      You caught me regarding dens, and you've got me thinking. I
      interpreted my council's edict to be that all Tour Permits that
      involved camping require a leader in the pack to be BALOO trained.
      To me this included WEBELOS overnighters. Actually I think this
      question came up in one of our courses and I think the Training
      Chairwoman said that the Pack still had to have someone with BALOO
      training. I'll have to ask this point blank before the start of
      our next course.

      By the way, according to the brochure this course is intended for
      a 'new' person to come in and fill a 'need', not another task for
      the CC, CM, ACM, WDL, or DL to take on. Wink, wink.

      Anyhow, in case I've given anyone the wrong impression, BALOO
      is an excellent course even for people who are experienced campers.


      Pete Mullaney

      Patriots Path Council
      New Jersey
    • Debbie Beer
      It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way everyone is
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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        It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I
        suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way
        everyone is covered.
        Having only one person baloo trained is a little impractical unless they
        have lots of free time and love to spend it camping with the scouts.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Steve Meyers" <meyerses@...>
        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:41 PM
        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping


        > As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping.
        > Dens CAN'T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without
        BALOO.
        > So, we are only talking about Pack overnighters.
        >
        > At 02:06 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
        > >Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be
        impractical.
        >
        > Steve Meyers
        > Pellissippi District Training
        > Great Smoky Mountain Council
        >
        >
        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Lloyd Solis
        The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states: Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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          The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states:
          "Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO training to properly understand the importance of program intent,
          youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age appropriate activities and sufficient adult participation. Permits for
          campouts shall be issued locally. Packs are to use Local Tour Permit No. 34426."

          Then two references are given: A Guide to Safe Scouting #34416
          Camping Progam and Property Management #20-920
          I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

          You can interpret the above paragraph as you wish. My take is 'giving leadership' implies attending and supervising the activity.

          I have not found a 'directive' in BALOO syllabus stating 'must attend' the campout. I think the implication is there.

          Lloyd
          New Orleans


          Steve Meyers wrote:

          > Hi Scouters,
          >
          > I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
          > This came from an individual that attended a Philmont Training course and received this information from a Mr. Sherman from National.
          >
          > This conflicts with information that I have heard from this list.
          > Can anyone confirm or repudiate this information with reference?
          >
          > Steve Meyers
          > Pellissippi District Cub Scout Training
          > Great Smoky Mountain Council
          >
          >
          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Wendell Brown
          ... Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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            On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:

            >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

            Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
            (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
            recent than the most recent printed copy) says:

            "Pack Overnighters

            These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
            family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
            activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
            Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
            the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
            health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
            each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
            giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
            Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
            understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
            guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
            activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
            shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
            34426."



            Wendell Brown
            Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
            A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
          • William Hicks
            I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout. As far as webelos
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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              I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just
              posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout.

              As far as webelos patrol campouts, I doubt BSA would hold them to a lower level
              of health & safety standards than they would a pack campout. The books may not
              say they have to have a BALOO trained leader in attendance, but that could
              simply be an oversight. Until my council or national comes out with something
              in writing that says otherwise my CM & I (comm chair) insist that webelos
              campouts have a BALOO trained leader.

              I have not seen the new local tour permit, BUT I am TOLD it has a place to fill
              in the BALOO trained leader's name ATTENDING the campout. Does anybody have
              one of these forms yet or has it been posted on the web? The wording on the
              form may hold the key!!! evil grin

              Thanks for the full quote Wendell! It has made up my mind as to how I will
              present the material while doing district and pack level training.

              YIS

              William


              --- Wendell Brown <wbrown@...> wrote:
              > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:
              >
              > >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO
              > requirement.
              >
              > Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
              > (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
              > recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
              >
              > "Pack Overnighters
              >
              > These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
              > family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
              > activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
              > Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
              > the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
              > health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
              > each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
              > giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
              > Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
              > understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
              > guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
              > activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
              > shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
              > 34426."
              >
              >
              >
              > Wendell Brown
              > Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
              > A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
              >
              >
              >


              =====
              William Hicks
              281-476-9404
              Pack 268 CC
              Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
              Sam Houston Area Council
              http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

              __________________________________________________
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            • Lloyd Solis
              ... BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It also says how BALOO training is directed. The target participant is a new
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                "Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]" wrote:

                > Hi Sean,
                > You certainly have a valid point but consider the
                > following ........
                > If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word.
                > It's plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter
                > must be trained? After all every adult there should be
                > giving leadership. I think each council will make their
                > own interpretation. I've learned from this list that my
                > council's take on "National's" policy is not necessarily
                > the same in other councils.
                >
                > Food for thought,
                >
                > Pete Mullaney

                BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It
                also says how BALOO training is directed. "The target participant is a new Cub
                Scout Leader who has minimal camping experience but wants to plan and carry out
                an entry level outdoor experience for the pack."

                Now that statement, to me, really muddies up the water. All of a sudden this
                'brand new person' is going to be the 'pack authority' after this one 8 hour
                training session?

                I think it wise to have all pack leaders attend BALOO and supplement it with
                Outdoor Leadership Fundamentals or Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. Of course,
                I'm a training nut.

                I really chuckle when the district and council hold overnight campouts. All of
                these 'brand new" campers showing up after dark with brand new or borrowed
                tents. Missing parts, few instructions, trying to put up their "Hilton Inns"
                with a penlight and a bunch of tired whiny kids running around.
                No concept of whether they're in a depression, run-off water channel, on a tree
                root system guaranteed to give you a night's sleep to remember forever, or
                under trees with dead branches just waiting for the next breeze. And then the
                scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get these
                folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't have
                their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                Lloyd
              • William Hicks
                ... Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain! I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a campsite with another pack.
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                  --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@...> wrote:

                  > the
                  > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get
                  > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't
                  >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                  > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                  > Lloyd
                  >
                  >

                  Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                  I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a
                  campsite with another pack. It was about 1 am and I awake to two fathers
                  trying to put up a monster three room tent with the two moms holding the
                  flashlights where they think their husbands should be looking while the 6 kids
                  (all wolf age or younger) try to "help dad"!

                  Luckily I had the exact same tent for when my wife goes camping with the boys
                  and I. I got out a few lanterns and had them in their sleeping bags in 30
                  minutes or so.

                  They were wonderful people (the next morning when we met with the sun up) but
                  it was their first campout ever and their pack had told them nothing as to what
                  to expect or what to bring.

                  We are all soft hearted souls are we not???

                  YIS

                  William




                  =====
                  William Hicks
                  281-476-9404
                  Pack 268 CC
                  Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                  Sam Houston Area Council
                  http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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                • colemans@ma.ultranet.com
                  If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it s no wonder so many families don t come back for a second time. Every camper has been out on their
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 11, 2001
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                    If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it's no wonder
                    so many families don't come back for a second time. Every camper has
                    been out on their first time and if that experience is a happy one,
                    they'll be back. However, if that experience is marked by memories of
                    camping elitists in tan-shirts, shorts and two color socks, those
                    families won't be back.

                    Yes, BALOO training will help and the more people that are trained,
                    the better, but BALOO is not going to make people better campers, nor
                    is OWL. It's camping that makes people better campers and first timers
                    are rookies trying something new.

                    I remember my first cub overnight with my son and it wasn't perfect by
                    any stretch of the imagination and I had been a cub leader for a
                    couple of years by then. As an assistant cubmaster and Camp
                    volunteer, I help sell the camp programs of my council. As a Webelos
                    Den Leader, I try to get Webelos out camping before their crossover in
                    order to get them ready. If I convince a boy and his parents to
                    attend one of these events, I hope they do not run into any
                    condescending non-"first-time" campers who find their difficulties
                    fodder for public griping.

                    Chris Coleman
                    WDL, CA Pack 17 Fitchburg, MA
                    CSRTC Massasoit District, Nashua Valley Council



                    --- In scouter_t@y..., William Hicks <williamhicks@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > the
                    > > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours
                    helping get
                    > > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why
                    they can't
                    > >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                    > > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can
                    gather.
                    > > Lloyd
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                    >
                    > YIS
                    >
                    > William
                  • William
                    Hey Chris, I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced. Just the opposite.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 11, 2001
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                      Hey Chris,

                      I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to
                      insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced.
                      Just the opposite.

                      If you read the last line of my post I state that "we are all just a
                      bunch of soft hearted souls." meaning that as Scouts we help someone
                      who needs it even if it does mean getting out of a night warm
                      sleeping bag at 1 am on a 35 degree night.

                      My first camping trip with my son (he was a wolf) was just as bad. I
                      had to borrow most of the equipment we had with us.

                      The point of the post was that the pack this family was with did not
                      prepare them! I may have not made my point very clear, I tend to
                      ramble when telling stories.

                      Please please please do nto think I was saying anything bad about the
                      first time campers. I was one too and I welcomed all the help I
                      could get!!

                      YIS...

                      William
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