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RE: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping

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  • Steve Meyers
    As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping. Dens CAN T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without BALOO. So, we are only talking about
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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      As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping.
      Dens CAN'T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without BALOO.
      So, we are only talking about Pack overnighters.

      At 02:06 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
      >Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be impractical.

      Steve Meyers
      Pellissippi District Training
      Great Smoky Mountain Council
    • William Hicks
      Everybody has been right on one big point so far: The BALOO book nor GSS state clearly if the pack s BALOO trained leader needs to attend the campout or not.
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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        Everybody has been right on one big point so far:

        The BALOO book nor GSS state clearly if the pack's BALOO trained leader needs
        to attend the campout or not.

        Nothing offical has been given out on paper yet on SHAC's council policy toward
        this question. What I have been encouraging packs to do so far is send a few
        leaders, not just one, to get BALOO trained. Very seldom is it one person who
        plans every aspect of a packout anyway.

        My pack is sending the CM, ACM, comm chair (myself, i'm helping teach it) and
        who ever else wants to attend! We are also encouraging our Webelos leaders to
        go as they do their own campouts from time to time.

        The old saying, "Better safe than sorry" comes to mind!!!

        YIS,

        William

        =====
        William Hicks
        281-476-9404
        Pack 268 CC
        Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
        Sam Houston Area Council
        http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

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      • Sean Scott
        Peter wrote: If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word. It s plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter must be trained? After all every
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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          Peter wrote: If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word. It's
          plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter must be trained? After
          all every adult there should be giving leadership.

          Yeah, I can see it going both ways. The wording is vague. Now if you pick
          nits and say 'adults' plural, that makes my life happier--every adult that
          could concievably be on a campout in my district has to attend my training!
          On the other hand, they won't all want to take training, and might not
          accept the role of leader for the duration of the campout if there's that
          stipulation. So we've succeeded in alienating adults from a leadership role,
          or even participation...

          Peter also wrote: At our training team breakfast at the beginning of this
          year we had a person from the national office speak. It was indicated that
          a pack camping position was in the works. Training for this position would
          logically include BALOO. Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS
          campouts would be impractical.

          Ah, but there's the rub! BALOO is not required for Webelos overnighters--OWL
          kicks in, so your BALOO leader wouldn't need to go (unless they're also the
          OWL trained Webelos leader...) Remember also that the opportunities for Cub
          Scout camping include only:

          Family camping
          Pack overnighters
          Webelos den campouts

          So there would be no further requirement for the BALOO person besides the
          pack overnighter. Den camping for non-Webelos dens is not (currently) an
          option.

          Overall, we had a very positive response from our first BALOO. Many leaders
          found the information practical and applicable to many situations outside a
          pack overnight experience, ranging from den meetings to troop campouts.
          We're choosing to promote it that way and expect a LOT of folks at our next
          trainings in December and January--maybe we'll beat the 100+ that Heart of
          America had in April! The benefit will be that many units will have multiple
          BALOO trained leaders and will be better prepared to have at least one in
          attendance at their campouts!

          Sean
          --
          Sean Scott
          Cub Roundtable Commissioner
          Training Chairman
          Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District

          WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
        • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
          You caught me regarding dens, and you ve got me thinking. I interpreted my council s edict to be that all Tour Permits that involved camping require a leader
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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            You caught me regarding dens, and you've got me thinking. I
            interpreted my council's edict to be that all Tour Permits that
            involved camping require a leader in the pack to be BALOO trained.
            To me this included WEBELOS overnighters. Actually I think this
            question came up in one of our courses and I think the Training
            Chairwoman said that the Pack still had to have someone with BALOO
            training. I'll have to ask this point blank before the start of
            our next course.

            By the way, according to the brochure this course is intended for
            a 'new' person to come in and fill a 'need', not another task for
            the CC, CM, ACM, WDL, or DL to take on. Wink, wink.

            Anyhow, in case I've given anyone the wrong impression, BALOO
            is an excellent course even for people who are experienced campers.


            Pete Mullaney

            Patriots Path Council
            New Jersey
          • Debbie Beer
            It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way everyone is
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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              It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I
              suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way
              everyone is covered.
              Having only one person baloo trained is a little impractical unless they
              have lots of free time and love to spend it camping with the scouts.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Steve Meyers" <meyerses@...>
              To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:41 PM
              Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping


              > As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping.
              > Dens CAN'T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without
              BALOO.
              > So, we are only talking about Pack overnighters.
              >
              > At 02:06 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
              > >Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be
              impractical.
              >
              > Steve Meyers
              > Pellissippi District Training
              > Great Smoky Mountain Council
              >
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
            • Lloyd Solis
              The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states: Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states:
                "Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO training to properly understand the importance of program intent,
                youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age appropriate activities and sufficient adult participation. Permits for
                campouts shall be issued locally. Packs are to use Local Tour Permit No. 34426."

                Then two references are given: A Guide to Safe Scouting #34416
                Camping Progam and Property Management #20-920
                I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

                You can interpret the above paragraph as you wish. My take is 'giving leadership' implies attending and supervising the activity.

                I have not found a 'directive' in BALOO syllabus stating 'must attend' the campout. I think the implication is there.

                Lloyd
                New Orleans


                Steve Meyers wrote:

                > Hi Scouters,
                >
                > I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
                > This came from an individual that attended a Philmont Training course and received this information from a Mr. Sherman from National.
                >
                > This conflicts with information that I have heard from this list.
                > Can anyone confirm or repudiate this information with reference?
                >
                > Steve Meyers
                > Pellissippi District Cub Scout Training
                > Great Smoky Mountain Council
                >
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Wendell Brown
                ... Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                  On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:

                  >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

                  Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
                  (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
                  recent than the most recent printed copy) says:

                  "Pack Overnighters

                  These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
                  family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
                  activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
                  Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
                  the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
                  health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
                  each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
                  giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
                  Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
                  understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
                  guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
                  activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
                  shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
                  34426."



                  Wendell Brown
                  Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                  A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
                • William Hicks
                  I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout. As far as webelos
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                    I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just
                    posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout.

                    As far as webelos patrol campouts, I doubt BSA would hold them to a lower level
                    of health & safety standards than they would a pack campout. The books may not
                    say they have to have a BALOO trained leader in attendance, but that could
                    simply be an oversight. Until my council or national comes out with something
                    in writing that says otherwise my CM & I (comm chair) insist that webelos
                    campouts have a BALOO trained leader.

                    I have not seen the new local tour permit, BUT I am TOLD it has a place to fill
                    in the BALOO trained leader's name ATTENDING the campout. Does anybody have
                    one of these forms yet or has it been posted on the web? The wording on the
                    form may hold the key!!! evil grin

                    Thanks for the full quote Wendell! It has made up my mind as to how I will
                    present the material while doing district and pack level training.

                    YIS

                    William


                    --- Wendell Brown <wbrown@...> wrote:
                    > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:
                    >
                    > >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO
                    > requirement.
                    >
                    > Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
                    > (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
                    > recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
                    >
                    > "Pack Overnighters
                    >
                    > These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
                    > family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
                    > activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
                    > Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
                    > the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
                    > health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
                    > each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
                    > giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
                    > Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
                    > understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
                    > guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
                    > activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
                    > shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
                    > 34426."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Wendell Brown
                    > Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                    > A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    =====
                    William Hicks
                    281-476-9404
                    Pack 268 CC
                    Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                    Sam Houston Area Council
                    http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Lloyd Solis
                    ... BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It also says how BALOO training is directed. The target participant is a new
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                      "Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]" wrote:

                      > Hi Sean,
                      > You certainly have a valid point but consider the
                      > following ........
                      > If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word.
                      > It's plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter
                      > must be trained? After all every adult there should be
                      > giving leadership. I think each council will make their
                      > own interpretation. I've learned from this list that my
                      > council's take on "National's" policy is not necessarily
                      > the same in other councils.
                      >
                      > Food for thought,
                      >
                      > Pete Mullaney

                      BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It
                      also says how BALOO training is directed. "The target participant is a new Cub
                      Scout Leader who has minimal camping experience but wants to plan and carry out
                      an entry level outdoor experience for the pack."

                      Now that statement, to me, really muddies up the water. All of a sudden this
                      'brand new person' is going to be the 'pack authority' after this one 8 hour
                      training session?

                      I think it wise to have all pack leaders attend BALOO and supplement it with
                      Outdoor Leadership Fundamentals or Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. Of course,
                      I'm a training nut.

                      I really chuckle when the district and council hold overnight campouts. All of
                      these 'brand new" campers showing up after dark with brand new or borrowed
                      tents. Missing parts, few instructions, trying to put up their "Hilton Inns"
                      with a penlight and a bunch of tired whiny kids running around.
                      No concept of whether they're in a depression, run-off water channel, on a tree
                      root system guaranteed to give you a night's sleep to remember forever, or
                      under trees with dead branches just waiting for the next breeze. And then the
                      scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get these
                      folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't have
                      their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                      God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                      Lloyd
                    • William Hicks
                      ... Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain! I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a campsite with another pack.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 10, 2001
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                        --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@...> wrote:

                        > the
                        > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get
                        > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't
                        >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                        > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                        > Lloyd
                        >
                        >

                        Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                        I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a
                        campsite with another pack. It was about 1 am and I awake to two fathers
                        trying to put up a monster three room tent with the two moms holding the
                        flashlights where they think their husbands should be looking while the 6 kids
                        (all wolf age or younger) try to "help dad"!

                        Luckily I had the exact same tent for when my wife goes camping with the boys
                        and I. I got out a few lanterns and had them in their sleeping bags in 30
                        minutes or so.

                        They were wonderful people (the next morning when we met with the sun up) but
                        it was their first campout ever and their pack had told them nothing as to what
                        to expect or what to bring.

                        We are all soft hearted souls are we not???

                        YIS

                        William




                        =====
                        William Hicks
                        281-476-9404
                        Pack 268 CC
                        Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                        Sam Houston Area Council
                        http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
                        http://im.yahoo.com/
                      • colemans@ma.ultranet.com
                        If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it s no wonder so many families don t come back for a second time. Every camper has been out on their
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 11, 2001
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                          If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it's no wonder
                          so many families don't come back for a second time. Every camper has
                          been out on their first time and if that experience is a happy one,
                          they'll be back. However, if that experience is marked by memories of
                          camping elitists in tan-shirts, shorts and two color socks, those
                          families won't be back.

                          Yes, BALOO training will help and the more people that are trained,
                          the better, but BALOO is not going to make people better campers, nor
                          is OWL. It's camping that makes people better campers and first timers
                          are rookies trying something new.

                          I remember my first cub overnight with my son and it wasn't perfect by
                          any stretch of the imagination and I had been a cub leader for a
                          couple of years by then. As an assistant cubmaster and Camp
                          volunteer, I help sell the camp programs of my council. As a Webelos
                          Den Leader, I try to get Webelos out camping before their crossover in
                          order to get them ready. If I convince a boy and his parents to
                          attend one of these events, I hope they do not run into any
                          condescending non-"first-time" campers who find their difficulties
                          fodder for public griping.

                          Chris Coleman
                          WDL, CA Pack 17 Fitchburg, MA
                          CSRTC Massasoit District, Nashua Valley Council



                          --- In scouter_t@y..., William Hicks <williamhicks@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > the
                          > > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours
                          helping get
                          > > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why
                          they can't
                          > >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                          > > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can
                          gather.
                          > > Lloyd
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                          >
                          > YIS
                          >
                          > William
                        • William
                          Hey Chris, I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced. Just the opposite.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 11, 2001
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                            Hey Chris,

                            I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to
                            insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced.
                            Just the opposite.

                            If you read the last line of my post I state that "we are all just a
                            bunch of soft hearted souls." meaning that as Scouts we help someone
                            who needs it even if it does mean getting out of a night warm
                            sleeping bag at 1 am on a 35 degree night.

                            My first camping trip with my son (he was a wolf) was just as bad. I
                            had to borrow most of the equipment we had with us.

                            The point of the post was that the pack this family was with did not
                            prepare them! I may have not made my point very clear, I tend to
                            ramble when telling stories.

                            Please please please do nto think I was saying anything bad about the
                            first time campers. I was one too and I welcomed all the help I
                            could get!!

                            YIS...

                            William
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