Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

BALOO and Camping

Expand Messages
  • Steve Meyers
    Hi Scouters, I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event. This came
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 10 10:04 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Scouters,

      I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
      This came from an individual that attended a Philmont Training course and received this information from a Mr. Sherman from National.

      This conflicts with information that I have heard from this list.
      Can anyone confirm or repudiate this information with reference?

      Steve Meyers
      Pellissippi District Cub Scout Training
      Great Smoky Mountain Council
    • Sean Scott
      Steve wrote: I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event. From the
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 10 10:28 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Steve wrote: I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must
        accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.

        From the Guide to Safe Scouting (online edition
        http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html):

        Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
        Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
        understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines,
        health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and
        sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued
        locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.

        I suppose this depends on your definition of "giving leadership". I'll admit
        that I was one of those individuals that was saying the BALOO trained leader
        did not have to attend.

        I can see how some might argue the policy is vague and does not specifically
        state the BALOO trained leader be in attendance. After all, I can provide
        leadership and delegate responsibility without being in attendance. However,
        reading this more closely leads me to change my opinion and agree with what
        Steve was told: That the Scouter must also attend the event. I believe that
        "giving leadership" is a process that begins with the inital planning stages
        and follows through to all the way to evaluation. The intent was probably
        that the trained leader participate in the actual campout.

        My 2 cents...

        Sean
        --
        Sean Scott
        Cub Roundtable Commissioner
        Training Chairman
        Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District

        WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
      • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
        At our training team breakfast at the beginning of this year we had a person from the national office speak. It was indicated that a pack camping position was
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 10 11:06 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          At our training team breakfast at the beginning of this year we
          had a person from the national office speak. It was indicated that
          a pack camping position was in the works. Training for this position
          would logically include BALOO. Making this person attend all
          pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be impractical.

          Nowhere in the syllabus did I see any statement that the trained
          person must attend the event. For the two courses I have been on
          staff we have told participants that the trained person does not
          necessarily have to attend. Maybe each council gives their own
          interpretation.

          Pete Mullaney
          Patriots Path Council
          New Jersey

          > ----------
          > From: Steve Meyers
          > Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping
          >
          > Hi Scouters,
          >
          > I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a
          > pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
          > This came from an individual that attended a Philmont Training course and
          > received this information from a Mr. Sherman from National.
          >
          > This conflicts with information that I have heard from this list.
          > Can anyone confirm or repudiate this information with reference?
          >
          > Steve Meyers
          > Pellissippi District Cub Scout Training
          > Great Smoky Mountain Council
        • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
          ... Hi Sean, You certainly have a valid point but consider the following ........ If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word. It s plural, does that
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 10 11:26 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            > ----------
            > From: Sean Scott
            >
            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping
            >
            > Steve wrote: I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual
            > must
            > accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
            >
            > From the Guide to Safe Scouting (online edition
            > http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html):
            >
            > Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
            > Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
            > understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines,
            > health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and
            > sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued
            > locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.
            >
            > I suppose this depends on your definition of "giving leadership". I'll
            > admit
            > that I was one of those individuals that was saying the BALOO trained
            > leader
            > did not have to attend.
            >
            Hi Sean,
            You certainly have a valid point but consider the
            following ........
            If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word.
            It's plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter
            must be trained? After all every adult there should be
            giving leadership. I think each council will make their
            own interpretation. I've learned from this list that my
            council's take on "National's" policy is not necessarily
            the same in other councils.

            Food for thought,

            Pete Mullaney
          • Steve Meyers
            As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping. Dens CAN T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without BALOO. So, we are only talking about
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 10 11:41 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping.
              Dens CAN'T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without BALOO.
              So, we are only talking about Pack overnighters.

              At 02:06 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
              >Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be impractical.

              Steve Meyers
              Pellissippi District Training
              Great Smoky Mountain Council
            • William Hicks
              Everybody has been right on one big point so far: The BALOO book nor GSS state clearly if the pack s BALOO trained leader needs to attend the campout or not.
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 10 11:44 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Everybody has been right on one big point so far:

                The BALOO book nor GSS state clearly if the pack's BALOO trained leader needs
                to attend the campout or not.

                Nothing offical has been given out on paper yet on SHAC's council policy toward
                this question. What I have been encouraging packs to do so far is send a few
                leaders, not just one, to get BALOO trained. Very seldom is it one person who
                plans every aspect of a packout anyway.

                My pack is sending the CM, ACM, comm chair (myself, i'm helping teach it) and
                who ever else wants to attend! We are also encouraging our Webelos leaders to
                go as they do their own campouts from time to time.

                The old saying, "Better safe than sorry" comes to mind!!!

                YIS,

                William

                =====
                William Hicks
                281-476-9404
                Pack 268 CC
                Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                Sam Houston Area Council
                http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
                http://im.yahoo.com/
              • Sean Scott
                Peter wrote: If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word. It s plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter must be trained? After all every
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 10 11:54 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Peter wrote: If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word. It's
                  plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter must be trained? After
                  all every adult there should be giving leadership.

                  Yeah, I can see it going both ways. The wording is vague. Now if you pick
                  nits and say 'adults' plural, that makes my life happier--every adult that
                  could concievably be on a campout in my district has to attend my training!
                  On the other hand, they won't all want to take training, and might not
                  accept the role of leader for the duration of the campout if there's that
                  stipulation. So we've succeeded in alienating adults from a leadership role,
                  or even participation...

                  Peter also wrote: At our training team breakfast at the beginning of this
                  year we had a person from the national office speak. It was indicated that
                  a pack camping position was in the works. Training for this position would
                  logically include BALOO. Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS
                  campouts would be impractical.

                  Ah, but there's the rub! BALOO is not required for Webelos overnighters--OWL
                  kicks in, so your BALOO leader wouldn't need to go (unless they're also the
                  OWL trained Webelos leader...) Remember also that the opportunities for Cub
                  Scout camping include only:

                  Family camping
                  Pack overnighters
                  Webelos den campouts

                  So there would be no further requirement for the BALOO person besides the
                  pack overnighter. Den camping for non-Webelos dens is not (currently) an
                  option.

                  Overall, we had a very positive response from our first BALOO. Many leaders
                  found the information practical and applicable to many situations outside a
                  pack overnight experience, ranging from den meetings to troop campouts.
                  We're choosing to promote it that way and expect a LOT of folks at our next
                  trainings in December and January--maybe we'll beat the 100+ that Heart of
                  America had in April! The benefit will be that many units will have multiple
                  BALOO trained leaders and will be better prepared to have at least one in
                  attendance at their campouts!

                  Sean
                  --
                  Sean Scott
                  Cub Roundtable Commissioner
                  Training Chairman
                  Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District

                  WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
                • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                  You caught me regarding dens, and you ve got me thinking. I interpreted my council s edict to be that all Tour Permits that involved camping require a leader
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 10 1:03 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You caught me regarding dens, and you've got me thinking. I
                    interpreted my council's edict to be that all Tour Permits that
                    involved camping require a leader in the pack to be BALOO trained.
                    To me this included WEBELOS overnighters. Actually I think this
                    question came up in one of our courses and I think the Training
                    Chairwoman said that the Pack still had to have someone with BALOO
                    training. I'll have to ask this point blank before the start of
                    our next course.

                    By the way, according to the brochure this course is intended for
                    a 'new' person to come in and fill a 'need', not another task for
                    the CC, CM, ACM, WDL, or DL to take on. Wink, wink.

                    Anyhow, in case I've given anyone the wrong impression, BALOO
                    is an excellent course even for people who are experienced campers.


                    Pete Mullaney

                    Patriots Path Council
                    New Jersey
                  • Debbie Beer
                    It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way everyone is
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 10 1:10 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      It is for family camp outs within the pack and for pack camp outs. I
                      suggest that every den have at least one person take the training that way
                      everyone is covered.
                      Having only one person baloo trained is a little impractical unless they
                      have lots of free time and love to spend it camping with the scouts.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Steve Meyers" <meyerses@...>
                      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:41 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BALOO and Camping


                      > As I understand it, BALOO is only for PACK camping.
                      > Dens CAN'T camp even with BALOO and Webelos can already camp without
                      BALOO.
                      > So, we are only talking about Pack overnighters.
                      >
                      > At 02:06 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
                      > >Making this person attend all pack/den/WEBELOS campouts would be
                      impractical.
                      >
                      > Steve Meyers
                      > Pellissippi District Training
                      > Great Smoky Mountain Council
                      >
                      >
                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • Lloyd Solis
                      The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states: Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 10 1:59 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The wording in 13-631 Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2001 states:
                        "Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete BALOO training to properly understand the importance of program intent,
                        youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age appropriate activities and sufficient adult participation. Permits for
                        campouts shall be issued locally. Packs are to use Local Tour Permit No. 34426."

                        Then two references are given: A Guide to Safe Scouting #34416
                        Camping Progam and Property Management #20-920
                        I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

                        You can interpret the above paragraph as you wish. My take is 'giving leadership' implies attending and supervising the activity.

                        I have not found a 'directive' in BALOO syllabus stating 'must attend' the campout. I think the implication is there.

                        Lloyd
                        New Orleans


                        Steve Meyers wrote:

                        > Hi Scouters,
                        >
                        > I was informed last night that a BALOO trained individual must accompany a pack on a camping event; in addition to planning the event.
                        > This came from an individual that attended a Philmont Training course and received this information from a Mr. Sherman from National.
                        >
                        > This conflicts with information that I have heard from this list.
                        > Can anyone confirm or repudiate this information with reference?
                        >
                        > Steve Meyers
                        > Pellissippi District Cub Scout Training
                        > Great Smoky Mountain Council
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Wendell Brown
                        ... Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 10 2:14 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:

                          >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO requirement.

                          Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
                          (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
                          recent than the most recent printed copy) says:

                          "Pack Overnighters

                          These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
                          family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
                          activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
                          Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
                          the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
                          health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
                          each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
                          giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
                          Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
                          understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
                          guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
                          activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
                          shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
                          34426."



                          Wendell Brown
                          Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                          A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
                        • William Hicks
                          I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout. As far as webelos
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 10 2:26 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I not sure how everybody else reads it, but my view on the post Wendall just
                            posted is that the BALOO trained leader must attend the campout.

                            As far as webelos patrol campouts, I doubt BSA would hold them to a lower level
                            of health & safety standards than they would a pack campout. The books may not
                            say they have to have a BALOO trained leader in attendance, but that could
                            simply be an oversight. Until my council or national comes out with something
                            in writing that says otherwise my CM & I (comm chair) insist that webelos
                            campouts have a BALOO trained leader.

                            I have not seen the new local tour permit, BUT I am TOLD it has a place to fill
                            in the BALOO trained leader's name ATTENDING the campout. Does anybody have
                            one of these forms yet or has it been posted on the web? The wording on the
                            form may hold the key!!! evil grin

                            Thanks for the full quote Wendell! It has made up my mind as to how I will
                            present the material while doing district and pack level training.

                            YIS

                            William


                            --- Wendell Brown <wbrown@...> wrote:
                            > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:59:25 -0500, Lloyd Solis wrote:
                            >
                            > >I do not have the latter but G2SS latest information does not state a BALOO
                            > requirement.
                            >
                            > Actually, Lloyd the ONLINE version
                            > (http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html) of G2SS (which is more
                            > recent than the most recent printed copy) says:
                            >
                            > "Pack Overnighters
                            >
                            > These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one
                            > family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
                            > activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use
                            > Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate,
                            > the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA
                            > health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases,
                            > each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Adults
                            > giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult
                            > Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly
                            > understand the importance of program intent, youth protection
                            > guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate
                            > activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts
                            > shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No.
                            > 34426."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Wendell Brown
                            > Scouting The Net -- http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                            > A Mini-Yahoo for the scouting community.
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            =====
                            William Hicks
                            281-476-9404
                            Pack 268 CC
                            Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                            Sam Houston Area Council
                            http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
                            http://im.yahoo.com/
                          • Lloyd Solis
                            ... BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It also says how BALOO training is directed. The target participant is a new
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 10 2:47 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]" wrote:

                              > Hi Sean,
                              > You certainly have a valid point but consider the
                              > following ........
                              > If we want to pick more nits, look at the first word.
                              > It's plural, does that mean every adult on an overnighter
                              > must be trained? After all every adult there should be
                              > giving leadership. I think each council will make their
                              > own interpretation. I've learned from this list that my
                              > council's take on "National's" policy is not necessarily
                              > the same in other councils.
                              >
                              > Food for thought,
                              >
                              > Pete Mullaney

                              BALOO syllabus states that at least one pack leader must be BALOO trained. It
                              also says how BALOO training is directed. "The target participant is a new Cub
                              Scout Leader who has minimal camping experience but wants to plan and carry out
                              an entry level outdoor experience for the pack."

                              Now that statement, to me, really muddies up the water. All of a sudden this
                              'brand new person' is going to be the 'pack authority' after this one 8 hour
                              training session?

                              I think it wise to have all pack leaders attend BALOO and supplement it with
                              Outdoor Leadership Fundamentals or Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. Of course,
                              I'm a training nut.

                              I really chuckle when the district and council hold overnight campouts. All of
                              these 'brand new" campers showing up after dark with brand new or borrowed
                              tents. Missing parts, few instructions, trying to put up their "Hilton Inns"
                              with a penlight and a bunch of tired whiny kids running around.
                              No concept of whether they're in a depression, run-off water channel, on a tree
                              root system guaranteed to give you a night's sleep to remember forever, or
                              under trees with dead branches just waiting for the next breeze. And then the
                              scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get these
                              folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't have
                              their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                              God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                              Lloyd
                            • William Hicks
                              ... Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain! I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a campsite with another pack.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 10 3:34 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@...> wrote:

                                > the
                                > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours helping get
                                > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why they can't
                                >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                                > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can gather.
                                > Lloyd
                                >
                                >

                                Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                                I had two families show up to a council campout where my pack was sharing a
                                campsite with another pack. It was about 1 am and I awake to two fathers
                                trying to put up a monster three room tent with the two moms holding the
                                flashlights where they think their husbands should be looking while the 6 kids
                                (all wolf age or younger) try to "help dad"!

                                Luckily I had the exact same tent for when my wife goes camping with the boys
                                and I. I got out a few lanterns and had them in their sleeping bags in 30
                                minutes or so.

                                They were wonderful people (the next morning when we met with the sun up) but
                                it was their first campout ever and their pack had told them nothing as to what
                                to expect or what to bring.

                                We are all soft hearted souls are we not???

                                YIS

                                William




                                =====
                                William Hicks
                                281-476-9404
                                Pack 268 CC
                                Bayshore District Cub Training Coordinator
                                Sam Houston Area Council
                                http://www.geocities.com/cubpack268

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
                                http://im.yahoo.com/
                              • colemans@ma.ultranet.com
                                If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it s no wonder so many families don t come back for a second time. Every camper has been out on their
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 11 5:18 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  If helping these first time campers is causing us pain, it's no wonder
                                  so many families don't come back for a second time. Every camper has
                                  been out on their first time and if that experience is a happy one,
                                  they'll be back. However, if that experience is marked by memories of
                                  camping elitists in tan-shirts, shorts and two color socks, those
                                  families won't be back.

                                  Yes, BALOO training will help and the more people that are trained,
                                  the better, but BALOO is not going to make people better campers, nor
                                  is OWL. It's camping that makes people better campers and first timers
                                  are rookies trying something new.

                                  I remember my first cub overnight with my son and it wasn't perfect by
                                  any stretch of the imagination and I had been a cub leader for a
                                  couple of years by then. As an assistant cubmaster and Camp
                                  volunteer, I help sell the camp programs of my council. As a Webelos
                                  Den Leader, I try to get Webelos out camping before their crossover in
                                  order to get them ready. If I convince a boy and his parents to
                                  attend one of these events, I hope they do not run into any
                                  condescending non-"first-time" campers who find their difficulties
                                  fodder for public griping.

                                  Chris Coleman
                                  WDL, CA Pack 17 Fitchburg, MA
                                  CSRTC Massasoit District, Nashua Valley Council



                                  --- In scouter_t@y..., William Hicks <williamhicks@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- Lloyd Solis <paperclp@s...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > the
                                  > > scouter in me takes over and we spend the next several hours
                                  helping get
                                  > > these folks under their shelters. Oh, then you have to explain why
                                  they can't
                                  > >have their individual campfires right next to their tent.
                                  > > God, you better be watching me, I need all the points I can
                                  gather.
                                  > > Lloyd
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Been There Done That Brother! I feel your pain!

                                  >
                                  > YIS
                                  >
                                  > William
                                • William
                                  Hey Chris, I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced. Just the opposite.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 11 8:26 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hey Chris,

                                    I think you mis-understood my post. By no means did I intend to
                                    insult or gripe about the first time campers I have experienced.
                                    Just the opposite.

                                    If you read the last line of my post I state that "we are all just a
                                    bunch of soft hearted souls." meaning that as Scouts we help someone
                                    who needs it even if it does mean getting out of a night warm
                                    sleeping bag at 1 am on a 35 degree night.

                                    My first camping trip with my son (he was a wolf) was just as bad. I
                                    had to borrow most of the equipment we had with us.

                                    The point of the post was that the pack this family was with did not
                                    prepare them! I may have not made my point very clear, I tend to
                                    ramble when telling stories.

                                    Please please please do nto think I was saying anything bad about the
                                    first time campers. I was one too and I welcomed all the help I
                                    could get!!

                                    YIS...

                                    William
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.