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Re: [Scouter_T] To the moderators (was The legacy of Scouting is leadership)

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  • gottshalld@aol.com
    I will attempt to clarify my comments to Rick Rambo s post where he stated that the BSA claimed that from its survey that Leadership was the Legacy of
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 8, 2009
      I will attempt to clarify my comments to Rick Rambo's post where he stated that the BSA claimed that from its survey that Leadership was the Legacy of Scouting.? Rick stated a case for Character and asked for comment or opinion.

      Richard Pushies asked me to clarify my comments while Kelly and Ray feel that discussion on this issue is not appropriate for scouter_t.

      I would say that recent changes in format and content of training, the new National requirements that all front line leaders are now mandated to participate in training, and the continued discussion on the value of both the delivery and content of BSA training are at the core of both the BSA and this group.

      While many on this list are dedicated scouters, some, if not a majority, have a very short horizon of reference to place this discussion of the dynamics of change into context.

      So? back to my original response ...


      Leadership became a method in Boy Scouting in 1972.? This came as a rather radical change in the direction of Scouting in the USA.? These changes were introduced as "the Improved Scouting Program" which included the complete re-write of all rank requirements,? and the new Urban Emphasis in Scouting and de-emphasis of Scoutcraft. The concept of a separate Leadership Corps was introduced, which removed the vast majority of 14-15 year old scouts from standing patrols.

      Prior to 1972, leadership was principally developed as part of the Patrol Method.? Younger scouts witnessed and experienced both good and bad leadership in action and up close, by observation of their own and other patrols.? Good patrol leaders were rewarded with re-election.? Bad patrol leaders were removed.? The average age of a patrol leader prior to 1972 was 15 or 16.? There were no New Scout Patrols.? New scouts were distributed into existing patrols that had traditions and legacies that lasted decades.? There were no Troop Guides.? Rank advancement and integration into the troop and patrol fabric were the responsibility of the scout and his patrol leader.

      So in 1972, patrol leadership was gutted and moved to the Leadership Corps.? Post-1972 patrol leaders now had, in some cases, less than half the experience of their predecessor.? The expectation for 16+ scouts was that they would become JASMs or leave the troop for Exploring.

      Need less to say, the BSA needed to respond to this consequence, and so began the ERA OF CLASS ROOM LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT.? The BSA rolled out TLD; Troop Leader Development, PLD, Patrol Leader Development.

      In four short years later (1976), the BSA had to respond to declining membership (for more information on this refer to the Boy Power/Man Power membership scandal) by re-emphasizing Scoutcraft with "All Out for Scouting."? With the vast number of pre-1972 scouts with any "old school leadership" already gone, the BSA launched the retro-learning experience for SPLs at Brownsea Double Two and Operation Flying Start to bring back the skills learned to their troops.

      In three short years later (1979), the BSA replaced TLD and PLD with JLT and a new Scout Handbook, authored by Green Bar Bill Hillcourt, was issued.? But the damage was done, membership dropped from 6.5 million in 1972 to 4.3 million in 1980.

      The Leadership Corps was formally removed in 1989 with the advent of Varsity in 1984 and Venture in 1989.? Both of these programs were removed from the troop program and spun off in 1998.

      So, in the pre-1972 patrol you learned leadership by actually experiencing the situation.? In the post-1972 patrol, you learned leadership in a situational leadership role play.

      So from 1910 to 1972, leadership development was a by-product of the patrol method.

      From 1972 to the present, leadership development is a course to attend.

      That is the basis of my response regarding my thought on Leadership as Scouting's Legacy.

      So since 1972, leadership development has been the focus of the following training for youth, by anocrym; TLD, PLD, BSD2, TJLT, JLT, NYLT, and TLT (not counting Regional or National courses).

      The question that I have is why did we have so many scouts in a program that was so obviously berifted of leadership yet since we have attempted to remedy the problem by training all these leaders our ranks are but a fraction of what it was?

      Could it be that we have lead the program away from a Legacy of a Game with a Purpose to a Legacy of Leadership?

      Now we require training for adult leaders ... I think that I see a trend here.


      Dave Gottshall
      Boston Minuteman Council

      P.S. Considering there has only been 8 postings in the past 10 days to this group, I hardly believe that this thread is taking up much of the available bandwidth, nor do I think that it is off-topic.? We could also look at adult leader training, but as has been noted, Scouts-L has had much more information and dialog regarding that subject over the past several days and I really disapprove of cross-posting commentary.

      Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • winsor_compound
      Ditto Tracy Winsor
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 9, 2009
        Ditto

        Tracy Winsor
        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'll vote for that, too.
        >
        >
        >
        > Ray Scott
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of Kelly Parker
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:57 AM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Scouter_T] To the moderators
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I have been a member of this group since shortly after its beginning, and I
        > have gotten great training tips and lots of resources through it. I have
        > tried to contribute on those occasions where I had specific experience or
        > background to assist others. I have recommended the group to dozens of
        > trainers throughout my council.
        >
        > That said, I am very disappointed in the recent trend to turn this group
        > into another rec.scouting or scouts-l discussion, where the focus is not on
        > training, but on everyone's opinion of how national is doing a lousy job,
        > Scouting ain't what it used to be, and to ridicule elected leaders who are
        > of differing views than the author. Please-this is a list about training,
        > and has always in the past been focused on helping trainers in the districts
        > do a better job. Can we just get back to that and leave the griping and
        > politics for some other group?
        >
        > If I am out of line here, please write back to me personally and explain how
        > "Real leadership dies back in 1972." Helps improve Scout training.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        >
        > Kelly Parker
        >
        > CM, St. Gregory's Pack 43
        >
        > Pueblo District, Grand Canyon Council
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        > [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:41 AM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        > Subject: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 2059
        >
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        > Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)
        >
        > 1a.
        >
        > Re: The legacy of Scouting is leadership From: gottshalld@aol.
        > <mailto:gottshalld%40aol.com> com
        >
        > 1b.
        >
        > Re: The legacy of Scouting is leadership From: Richard C. Pushies
        >
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        > 1a.
        >
        > <http://groups.
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scouter_t/message/10666;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc2t0bTd0
        > > yahoo.com/group/scouter_t/message/10666;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc2t0bTd0
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        > BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDY0NDQ4NjM-> Re: The legacy of Scouting
        > is leadership
        >
        > Posted by: "gottshalld@aol. <mailto:gottshalld%40aol.com> com"
        > <mailto:gottshalld@aol. <mailto:gottshalld%40aol.com>
        > com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20The%20legacy%20of%20Scouting%2
        > 0is%20leadership> gottshalld@aol. <mailto:gottshalld%40aol.com> com
        > <http://profiles. <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gottshalld>
        > yahoo.com/gottshalld> gottshalld
        >
        > Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:13 am (PDT)
        >
        > Rick,
        >
        > Real leadership dies back in 1972.
        >
        > Leadership was not a method of Scouting prior to 1972, with the advent of
        > the Leadership Corps.
        >
        > All references to leadership before 1972 was a by-product of effective use
        > of the patrol method.
        >
        > Patrols elected leaders.? Patrol members learned leadership by direct
        > observation and participation as part of an engaged patrol member, not by
        > attending some management class with contrived examples.
        >
        > I can only hope that patrol management is a short-lived legacy.
        >
        > Dave Gottshall
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Rick Rambo < <mailto:rickram%40comcast.net> rickram@comcast.
        > <mailto:rickram%40comcast.net> net>
        > To: <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> scouter_t@yahoogrou
        > <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        > Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 9:36 pm
        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] The legacy of Scouting is leadership
        >
        > According to the BSA the legacy of Scouting is Leadership!
        >
        > SOOOOOOooooo,
        >
        > Does anyone have an opinion regarding the overwhelming difference of opinion
        >
        > between those who took the poll and the "correct" answer?
        >
        > I, too agree that Leadership is a lasting legacy of Scouting. I see this in
        >
        > my own life and others who have been involved with Scouting - that they are
        >
        > often times the default choices for leaders in various situations.
        >
        > However, I believe that Character is a necessary component of true
        >
        > leadership. I am sure you have seen people that have been placed in a
        >
        > leadership role, but lack Character. More often than not, they end up
        >
        > ultimately failing in their attempt at Leadership.
        >
        > Just my two cents, looking forward to reading others'.
        >
        > Rick Rambo
        >
        > Bunches of trainings and Wood Badges
        >
        > Currently RT Commissioner
        >
        > "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination,
        >
        > or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and
        >
        > evidence." -John Adams
        >
        > "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
        >
        > Liberty is a well-armed lamb." Benjamin Franklin
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > Back to top
        >
        > <mailto:gottshalld@aol. <mailto:gottshalld%40aol.com>
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        > 1b.
        >
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        > BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyNDY0NDQ4NjM-> Re: The legacy of Scouting
        > is leadership
        >
        > Posted by: "Richard C. Pushies"
        > <mailto:rick@pushies. <mailto:rick%40pushies.com>
        > com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20The%20legacy%20of%20Scouting%20i
        > s%20leadership> rick@pushies. <mailto:rick%40pushies.com> com
        > <http://profiles. <http://profiles.yahoo.com/rpushies> yahoo.com/rpushies>
        > rpushies
        >
        > Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:37 am (PDT)
        >
        > Hi Dave,
        >
        > Thanks for sharing your perspective. I do not understand your perspective,
        > but I appreciate that you took the time to share.
        >
        > You wrote, "Real leadership dies back in 1972." What? I do not understand
        > this comment, please explain. What do you characterize as "real leadership"
        > in this statrment? Do we now have unreal leadership in Scouting?
        >
        > You wrote, "Leadership was not a method of Scouting prior to 1972, with the
        > advent of the Leadership Corps." Yet Lord Baden-Powell is quoted as saying
        > "Every boy deserves a trained leader." Leaders provide leadership in my
        > book. The Boy Scouts of America included leadership as one of the 8 methods
        > of Scouting for a reason. You seem to believe that was a mistake, is that
        > correct?
        >
        > Teaching effective leadership skills to Scouts increases their ability to be
        > good leaders.
        >
        > You wrote, "Patrols elected leaders.?" It is my understanding that the
        > election of patrol leaders still takes place at the troop level. When I
        > first became a Scoutmaster in 1980 my Scouts elected patrol leaders and they
        > are electing patrol leaders in my grandson's troop today. What is your
        > point?
        >
        > You wrote, "Patrol members learned leadership by direct observation and
        > participation as part of an engaged patrol member, . . ." Observing the
        > example of a good patrol leader is still a valid way to learn. But, what if
        > the current patrol leader is a terrible leader? Does the observed poor
        > performance of a patrol leader then become the standard of leadership for
        > all the patrol members? Teaching first aid in this manner would not be very
        > effective, would it?
        >
        > ". . ., not by attending some management class with contrived examples."
        > Your definition of managment and mine must differ. I was taught that you
        > manage things and lead people. Please share your definition of the terms
        > management and leadership because I do not understand your position.
        > "Contrived examples" is an interesting choice of words. Please provide an
        > explanation of what you mean.
        >
        > You wrote,"I can only hope that patrol management is a short-lived legacy."
        > Well, it appears that the Boy Scouts of America sees things differently than
        > you as they have defined leadership as the legacy of Scouting. I agree with
        > the Boy Scouts of America and do not understand your perspective at all. I
        > hope the legacy of leadership in Scouting endures for another hundred years!
        >
        > My favorite quotation on leadership comes from Napolean and he said, "A
        > leaders is a dealer in hope." What say you?
        >
        > Yours Truly in Scouting,
        > Rick Pushies
        >
        > Back to top
        >
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      • Richard C. Pushies
        Hi Dave, Thanks for your posting regarding leadership as it pertains to training. We obviously see things from different perspectives. There is much in your
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 9, 2009
          Hi Dave,

          Thanks for your posting regarding leadership as it pertains to training. We obviously see things from different perspectives. There is much in your information that I see as valid, but I believe you miss a key point. You stated, "So from 1910 to 1972, leadership development was a by-product of the patrol method." Leadership development is still a by-product of the patrol method. However, Scouting has found that teaching leadership skills to boys is a more efficient method of developing good leaders than relying solely on observation of other leaders in action.

          My days of Scouting as a youth took place before the 1972 shift away from the traditional outdoor program of Scouting. My first tenure as a Scoutmaster began in 1980, so I missed much of the frustration from that period of "Urban Scouting." It is my position that it was not the change in leadership training that caused the downturn in membership, it was a loss of focus on the promise of Scouting. That promise of Scouting is adventure! Boys want adventure and they see adventure calling to them in the great outdoors.

          You seem to feel that providing leadership training to boys is contrary to providing a quality Scouting program. Yet leadership training has been part of Scouting from the very beginning of the movement. Yes, how we train leaders has evolved and it will continue to evolve. Lord Baden-Powell said, "Scouting is a game with a purpose." It still is a game with a purpose and leadership is the legacy of that game with a purpose. It is so for me, my son and my grandson. That gives me something more than a "short horizon of reference" in my perspective.

          As a Scoutmaster, when I helped my Scouts become better leaders, I relied on the leadership training provided by the Boy Scouts of America to help give my Scouts the skills needed to become better leaders. This training supplemented the direct guidance I gave my youth leaders and the observations they made of other leaders in action. The younger Scouts still observed these trained youth leaders in action as in your pre-1972 scenario. They just observed better leaders in action because their leaders had been given leadership training. I do not see teaching leadership training solely by observing leaders in action as a better or more efficient method of leadership training.

          Watch the video clip of Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates where he tells how leadership training in Scouting was the only time in his life that he was actually taught how to lead others. This former Director of the CIA and now Secretary of Defense sees the leadership training he received in Scouting as important in his life. What kind of a leader would he be today if he only observed his patrol leader in action? http://ricksnews.pushies.com/Training/youth_leadership.htm

          The National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) continues to use the patrol method to help leadership skills grow at the patrol level. If you have not served on staff for an NYLT course doing so may provide you with a new appreciation of the value of training youth leaders in Scouting. Training youth leaders in leadership skills makes better leaders.

          Your position that the training of leaders is the cause of the downturn in Scouting membership could fit the few facts you present. However, I believe your conclusion is wrong, the cause is far greater in scope than you present. That is my opinion and we all know about opinions - every one has one!

          Lord Bade-Powell said, "Every boy deserves a trained leader." Rick Pushies says, "Every Scout deserves to be trained as a leader."

          Be good to yourself.

          Yours Truly in Scouting,
          Rick Pushies
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