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Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

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  • corinnajones@hotmail.com
    The issue is really not the leaders children, but those boys whose parents couldn t care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would hate
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
      The issue is really not the leaders' children, but those boys whose parents
      couldn't care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would
      hate to loose these boys, since they need the program most.
      The leaders who no longer have boys in the program, but used to pitch in for
      those who couldn't afford it might be forced to think twice during these
      tough times - financially and time-wise. Many struggling units in our area
      are run by non-parents, because the parents choose not to step up. These
      leaders are frequently active in their own kids' troops and crews, as well
      as commissioners, RT commissioners, and district sub-committee chairs.
      Please don't tell me they need to do more or do a better job.

      Corinna
    • Ray Scott
      Wow. Maybe I can back up and we can possibly chalk my post up to a rookie mistake or something. But I certainly don t see how I implied this means leaders need
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
        Wow. Maybe I can back up and we can possibly chalk my post up to a rookie
        mistake or something. But I certainly don't see how I implied this means
        leaders need to do more.



        I acknowledge that the condition our condition is in varies widely from
        region to region right now, and I admit that didn't take that into
        consideration. I can only speak from my own experience in scouting, and that
        leads me to say and to continue to maintain that it doesn't seem
        unreasonable. It still seems to me a miniscule percentage when compared to
        annual total of all the other costs.



        And thankfully the scale of the increase is not on par with the absurd
        transportation example. If my transportation increased that much I would
        have to walk to scouts for sure.



        Ray

        _____

        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of corinnajones@...
        Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:18 PM
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?








        The issue is really not the leaders' children, but those boys whose parents
        couldn't care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would

        hate to loose these boys, since they need the program most.
        The leaders who no longer have boys in the program, but used to pitch in for

        those who couldn't afford it might be forced to think twice during these
        tough times - financially and time-wise. Many struggling units in our area
        are run by non-parents, because the parents choose not to step up. These
        leaders are frequently active in their own kids' troops and crews, as well
        as commissioners, RT commissioners, and district sub-committee chairs.
        Please don't tell me they need to do more or do a better job.

        Corinna





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ftooth
        C mon, $5 a year is not a barrier . What are the other barriers to membership? Should membership be free? Scouting is not without cost, so WHO should pay
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 5, 2009
          C'mon, $5 a year is not a "barrier". What are the other barriers to membership?

          Should membership be free? Scouting is not without cost, so WHO should pay the cost?

          What's the real gripe here, it can't be a lousy 5 bucks?
          Frank Toothaker

          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:
          >
          > The BSA does not need another barrier to membership, either new or continued.
          >
          > Dave Gottshall
        • Brian Sutilla
          First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn t mean it is coming. Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave,
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
            First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn't mean it is coming.

            Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.


            Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are for a whole year.

            Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

            Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to support that and all of its activities.

            Ok, off my soap Box.

            Yours in Scouting,
            Brian Sutilla




            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:
            >
            > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
            > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
            >
            >
            >
            > Ray Scott
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of gottshalld@...
            > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
            > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; scouts-l@...
            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
            >
            > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
            >
            > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and well
            > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
            >
            > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
            > even start.
            >
            > Dave Gottshall
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>
            > comcast.net>
            > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
            > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
            > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
            >
            > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
            >
            > I just recieved this from our council office:
            >
            > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
            >
            > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
            > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
            > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
            > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
            > Exploring fee remains $10.
            >
            > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
            > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
            > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
            > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
            > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
            > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well as
            > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from staff
            > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
            > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase the
            > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
            > period of at least three years.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Melina Baker
            Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I m operating on the assumption it is true. When I posted something about the increase to our district s
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
              Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I'm operating on the
              assumption it is true.



              When I posted something about the increase to our district's yahoo group, I
              also compared it to sports. Before we were a scouting family, we were a
              soccer family. In my area, soccer was cheaper than any other sport for
              registration and equipment, so it made for a good comparison. To
              participate fully for a Cub Scout today wound up to be roughly the same cost
              as to participate at a minimum for soccer (per costs seven years ago). We
              paid in excess of $2,000 a year for my daughter, who was a star player,
              deeply committed to the game, to play to the full level of her capabilities!
              I pointed out to our group that nearly any activity can be as costly as
              parents are willing to commit themselves to pay, but very few have such an
              inexpensive buy-in as scouts - $25 for a year, and that includes a magazine.



              Melina Baker

              Cubmaster, Pack 403





              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Brian Sutilla
              Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:17 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?








              First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that
              doesn't mean it is coming.

              Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first
              increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and
              if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at
              inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a
              small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will
              find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.

              Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is
              still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are
              for a whole year.

              Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

              Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees
              into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to
              support that and all of its activities.

              Ok, off my soap Box.

              Yours in Scouting,
              Brian Sutilla

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray
              Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:
              >
              > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
              > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
              >
              >
              >
              > Ray Scott
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf
              > Of gottshalld@...
              > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              scouts-l@...
              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
              >
              > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
              >
              > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and
              well
              > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
              >
              > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
              > even start.
              >
              > Dave Gottshall
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>
              > comcast.net>
              > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
              > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
              > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
              >
              > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
              >
              > I just recieved this from our council office:
              >
              > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
              >
              > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
              > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
              > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
              > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
              > Exploring fee remains $10.
              >
              > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
              > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
              > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
              > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
              > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
              > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well
              as
              > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from
              staff
              > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
              > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase
              the
              > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
              > period of at least three years.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Christopher Connolly
              I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn them away. 

                The sports argument does not always work.  Some parents just don't care.
                 Chris Connolly




                ________________________________
                From: Melina Baker <melina@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 12:48:02 PM
                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?





                Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I'm operating on the
                assumption it is true.

                When I posted something about the increase to our district's yahoo group, I
                also compared it to sports. Before we were a scouting family, we were a
                soccer family. In my area, soccer was cheaper than any other sport for
                registration and equipment, so it made for a good comparison. To
                participate fully for a Cub Scout today wound up to be roughly the same cost
                as to participate at a minimum for soccer (per costs seven years ago). We
                paid in excess of $2,000 a year for my daughter, who was a star player,
                deeply committed to the game, to play to the full level of her capabilities!
                I pointed out to our group that nearly any activity can be as costly as
                parents are willing to commit themselves to pay, but very few have such an
                inexpensive buy-in as scouts - $25 for a year, and that includes a magazine.

                Melina Baker

                Cubmaster, Pack 403

                From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                Of Brian Sutilla
                Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:17 AM
                To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that
                doesn't mean it is coming.

                Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first
                increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and
                if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at
                inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a
                small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will
                find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.

                Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is
                still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are
                for a whole year.

                Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

                Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees
                into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to
                support that and all of its activities.

                Ok, off my soap Box.

                Yours in Scouting,
                Brian Sutilla

                --- In scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> , "Ray
                Scott" <rayscott3@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
                > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
                >
                >
                >
                > Ray Scott
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com>
                [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ] On
                Behalf
                > Of gottshalld@. ..
                > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ;
                scouts-l@...
                > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
                >
                > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
                >
                > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and
                well
                > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
                >
                > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
                > even start.
                >
                > Dave Gottshall
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_ sandells% 40comcast. net>
                > comcast.net>
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ps.com
                > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
                > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                >
                > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
                >
                > I just recieved this from our council office:
                >
                > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
                >
                > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
                > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
                > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
                > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
                > Exploring fee remains $10.
                >
                > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
                > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
                > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
                > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
                > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
                > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well
                as
                > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from
                staff
                > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
                > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase
                the
                > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
                > period of at least three years.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gottshalld@aol.com
                Brian, If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                  Brian,

                  If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.

                  You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.

                  What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.

                  What about the BSA Foundation?

                  You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.

                  Dave Gottshall??




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Brian Sutilla <spatula@...>
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:16 am
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?































                  First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn't mean it is coming.



                  Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.



                  Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are for a whole year.



                  Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.



                  Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to support that and all of its activities.



                  Ok, off my soap Box.



                  Yours in Scouting,

                  Brian Sutilla



                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:

                  >

                  > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay

                  > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Ray Scott

                  >

                  > _____

                  >

                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

                  > Of gottshalld@...

                  > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM

                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; scouts-l@...

                  > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.

                  >

                  > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.

                  >

                  > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and well

                  > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.

                  >

                  > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't

                  > even start.

                  >

                  > Dave Gottshall

                  >

                  > -----Original Message-----

                  > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>

                  > comcast.net>

                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com

                  > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am

                  > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

                  >

                  > Maybe I am behind on my reading...

                  >

                  > I just recieved this from our council office:

                  >

                  > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase

                  >

                  > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business

                  > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee

                  > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,

                  > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The

                  > Exploring fee remains $10.

                  >

                  > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both

                  > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National

                  > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to

                  > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council

                  > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the

                  > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well as

                  > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from staff

                  > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these

                  > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase the

                  > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a

                  > period of at least three years.

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >


























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Brant Lippincott
                  Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don t think that this increase is
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                    Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don't think that this increase is designed to bring IN anyone.  If I recall correctly, nation has said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the registration process - and nothing else.  I've been in IT for many years and banks used to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account on the books - that was 20 years ago.  The last time someone mentioned a figure it was more like $5.

                    Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee.  $60 and up.  Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their fee.  That would make the $5 increase a moot point.

                    Cub units don't charge a large annual fee, so that may be a potential problem...  If you approach it as "the BSA has made a small increase - due to an increase in their costs", I think most will not have a problem.  Remember that the actual cost of running the program is over $100/boy - typically funded thru FOS.

                    Stress the benefits - leadership, etc...  I don't think this will be a problem for most.

                    Brant Lippincott



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Christopher Connolly <fire_medic_cjc@...>
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:12:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                    I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn them away. 

                    The sports argument does not always work.  Some parents just don't care.
                     Chris Connolly
                  • ftooth
                    Not sure what your point is? The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That s a good thing, no? None are
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                      Not sure what your point is?

                      The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That's a good thing, no? None are mandatory; you donate out of the goodness of your heart. The membership fee is mandatory; members must pay $15 per year.
                      I've a sneakin' hunch that if there was no BSA Foundation, no FOS, and no West, the membership fee would be a tad higher. Maybe the membership fee should be $1,000 and the James West $15.

                      Maybe the national jamboree is a waste of money, maybe Philmont too? Maybe we should we scrap the Handbook, publications, Eagle program, etc etc.

                      Frank Toothaker
                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:
                      > Brian,
                      >
                      > If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.
                      >
                      > You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.
                      >
                      > What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.
                      >
                      > What about the BSA Foundation?
                      >
                      > You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.
                      >
                      > Dave Gottshall??
                    • bill smith
                      Most, almost all of us white middle class folk will gladly pay the extra $5 and hardly notice it. Since we make up the overwhelming majority of BSA membership,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                        Most, almost all of us white middle class folk
                        will gladly pay the extra $5 and hardly notice it.
                        Since we make up the overwhelming majority
                        of BSA membership, membership will suffer
                        only a negligible drop.
                        On the other hand, even with an unbelievable
                        drop of 10% in registration, BSA National will
                        still come out with a 35% increase in revenue,
                        The big losers will be a few single parent families
                        who will balance $5 against food and transportation
                        costs to and from work. Then there's those outreach
                        programs that are funded by fixed budgets. They
                        will drop one third of their members. Who cares?
                        They're just poor uderpriv. trash anyway.

                        Have a great time at the Jambo.

                        bill smith
                        The best gift for a Cub Scout.......
                        ......get his parents involved!
                        http://wtsmith.com/rt.html

                        Brant Lippincott wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit. Scouting DOES have a
                        > benefit. This is a relatively minor increase. I don't think that
                        > this increase is designed to bring IN anyone. If I recall correctly,
                        > nation has said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the
                        > registration process - and nothing else. I've been in IT for many
                        > years and banks used to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account
                        > on the books - that was 20 years ago. The last time someone mentioned
                        > a figure it was more like $5.
                        >
                        > Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee. $60 and
                        > up. Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their
                        > fee. That would make the $5 increase a moot point.
                        >
                        > Cub units don't charge a large annual fee, so that may be a potential
                        > problem... If you approach it as "the BSA has made a small increase -
                        > due to an increase in their costs", I think most will not have a
                        > problem. Remember that the actual cost of running the program is over
                        > $100/boy - typically funded thru FOS.
                        >
                        > Stress the benefits - leadership, etc... I don't think this will be a
                        > problem for most.
                        >
                        > Brant Lippincott
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Christopher Connolly <fire_medic_cjc@...
                        > <mailto:fire_medic_cjc%40yahoo.com>>
                        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:12:14 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?
                        >
                        > I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in. Too
                        > many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that
                        > this will only turn them away.
                        >
                      • Roy Fisher
                        ... From: Brant Lippincott Subject: Re: Fee Increase? Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Brant Lippincott
                          Subject: Re: Fee Increase?

                          Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a
                          benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don't think that this
                          increase is designed to bring IN anyone.  If I recall correctly, nation has
                          said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the registration
                          process - and nothing else.  I've been in IT for many years and banks used
                          to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account on the books - that was 20
                          years ago.  The last time someone mentioned a figure it was more like $5.

                          Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee.  $60 and up. 
                          Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their fee.  That
                          would make the $5 increase a moot point.
                          >>>>>>>>>>>

                          If this were the only increase you might be right. Regarding the cost of
                          registration, most of that is borne by the local Councils not National.

                          But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                          (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                          than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the same
                          time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                          transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.

                          And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief, neckerchief
                          slide and hat each year.

                          I would be willing to bet that most units will not see a 50% increase in
                          their popcorn commissions or other fund raising activities. Given the
                          economic conditions in most areas of the country many units will be darned
                          lucky to stay flat from last year.

                          But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree site
                          somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?

                          In years past, our Troop has always paid for all of the youth and adult
                          registration. We were already discussing eliminating paying for adults
                          because of reductions in our fund raising income and increases in our other
                          costs; this nails the coffin shut.

                          Roy Fisher
                        • ftooth
                          Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment, transportation etc etc etc etc. It is ALL for the Scouts ! WHO besides Scouts SHOULD
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                            Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment, transportation etc etc etc etc.

                            It is ALL for the Scouts !

                            WHO besides Scouts SHOULD pay for it?? The Scoutmaster maybe? The taxpayer? WHO should pay? It ain't free!

                            Frank Toothaker

                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Fisher" <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                            > (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                            > than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the same
                            > time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                            > transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.
                            >
                            > And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief, neckerchief
                            > slide and hat each year...
                            >
                            > But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree site
                            > somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?
                          • gottshalld@aol.com
                            Frank, That is only the tip of the iceberg. FOS is voluntary.? But goodness of heart has nothing to do with it.? Every year the Council comes in to my unit
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                              Frank,

                              That is only the tip of the iceberg.

                              FOS is voluntary.? But goodness of heart has nothing to do with it.? Every year the Council comes in to my unit crying poor mouth, setting a recommendation of donation of over $100 per family.? While I do feel bad for the local council and provide many hours attempting to support its program efforts and do write a check, I feel that the whole structure and accounting scheme can not be sustained on the backs of its members.

                              I also feel that National is totally out-of-touch with both local councils and units.? In the Northeast, we have many local high adventure programs.? These programs provide a wide variety of locales and opportunities.? But there is no coordination, no National clearinghouse, no National support.? Now we see that National is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy, develop, and staff another National High Adventure.? IMHO, this is a colossal waste of money, places additional financial stress on local councils and their programs, with no benefit to youth or units.

                              Do you remember the reason why uniforms cost so much?? The BSA wanted to have them "Made in America."? A noble goal and we all went along.? Now that the new uniforms are made overseas, did the cost of the uniforms go down in pricing consistent with the difference in manufacturing costs? Nope.Wind-fall profits to the BSA.

                              Now the BSA through their new licensing agreements and enforcement programs, the BSA is driving small local service companies out of the scout service business and driving those that require anything with a BSA trademark to National Supply, National Scout Shops, or a select group of licensees that pay a fee to the BSA for the privilege to serve their members.? Those additional costs are being paid by the members in increased fee costs. More profits for the BSA.

                              This is not a small increase.? With membership at just south of 3 million, this "small increase" generates an ADDITIONAL $15 MILLION.? What increase in service to my unit will I see for my units portion of this fee increase?

                              So we see more of our monies going to Irving, continued decline in membership, National's own actions undermining the finances and programs of its local councils, and you ask me what the point is?

                              Frank, can I be any clearer?

                              Dave Gottshall





                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: ftooth <ftooth@...>
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 9:10 pm
                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?































                              Not sure what your point is?



                              The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That's a good thing, no? None are mandatory; you donate out of the goodness of your heart. The membership fee is mandatory; members must pay $15 per year.

                              I've a sneakin' hunch that if there was no BSA Foundation, no FOS, and no West, the membership fee would be a tad higher. Maybe the membership fee should be $1,000 and the James West $15.



                              Maybe the national jamboree is a waste of money, maybe Philmont too? Maybe we should we scrap the Handbook, publications, Eagle program, etc etc.



                              Frank Toothaker

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:

                              > Brian,

                              >

                              > If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.

                              >

                              > You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.

                              >

                              > What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.

                              >

                              > What about the BSA Foundation?

                              >

                              > You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.

                              >

                              > Dave Gottshall??


























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Roy Fisher
                              You are absolutely right; someone has to pay. But by the same token at some point someone says it just ain t worth it. The BENEFIT you mention is very
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                                You are absolutely right; someone has to pay. But by the same token at some
                                point someone says "it just ain't worth it." The BENEFIT you mention is
                                very intangible and often not even noticed for a number of years after
                                leaving the program. Where is the tipping point were the cost exceeds the
                                benefit? I'm sure I don't know, but I'm also sure that there will be a
                                number of folks that will be 'running the numbers' the next time their unit
                                recharters.

                                I can go camping for much less and don't even have to mess with a tour
                                permit.

                                Roy Fisher

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                Of ftooth
                                Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 8:56 PM
                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                                Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment,
                                transportation etc etc etc etc.

                                It is ALL for the Scouts !

                                WHO besides Scouts SHOULD pay for it?? The Scoutmaster maybe? The taxpayer?
                                WHO should pay? It ain't free!

                                Frank Toothaker

                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Fisher" <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                                > (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                                > than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the
                                same
                                > time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                                > transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.

                                >
                                > And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief,
                                neckerchief
                                > slide and hat each year...
                                >
                                > But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree
                                site
                                > somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?



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