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RE: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

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  • Ray Scott
    It doesn t seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay my fees as well. It s a matter of deciding what s important. Ray Scott _____ From:
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
      my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.



      Ray Scott

      _____

      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of gottshalld@...
      Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; scouts-l@...
      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?











      I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.

      So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.

      I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and well
      ahead of most families increase in disposable income.

      ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
      even start.

      Dave Gottshall

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>
      comcast.net>
      To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
      Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

      Maybe I am behind on my reading...

      I just recieved this from our council office:

      Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase

      The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
      meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
      for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
      2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
      Exploring fee remains $10.

      A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
      the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
      Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
      the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
      support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
      cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well as
      the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from staff
      and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
      considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase the
      fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
      period of at least three years.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • gottshalld@aol.com
      Ray, Transportation is important.? If your car in 2002 cost $12K and in 2009 the same car cost $26K, what choice would you make?? You would look into other
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
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        Ray,

        Transportation is important.? If your car in 2002 cost $12K and in 2009 the same car cost $26K, what choice would you make?? You would look into other options.

        The BSA does not need another barrier to membership, either new or continued.

        Dave Gottshall
      • corinnajones@hotmail.com
        The issue is really not the leaders children, but those boys whose parents couldn t care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would hate
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          The issue is really not the leaders' children, but those boys whose parents
          couldn't care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would
          hate to loose these boys, since they need the program most.
          The leaders who no longer have boys in the program, but used to pitch in for
          those who couldn't afford it might be forced to think twice during these
          tough times - financially and time-wise. Many struggling units in our area
          are run by non-parents, because the parents choose not to step up. These
          leaders are frequently active in their own kids' troops and crews, as well
          as commissioners, RT commissioners, and district sub-committee chairs.
          Please don't tell me they need to do more or do a better job.

          Corinna
        • Ray Scott
          Wow. Maybe I can back up and we can possibly chalk my post up to a rookie mistake or something. But I certainly don t see how I implied this means leaders need
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 4, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Wow. Maybe I can back up and we can possibly chalk my post up to a rookie
            mistake or something. But I certainly don't see how I implied this means
            leaders need to do more.



            I acknowledge that the condition our condition is in varies widely from
            region to region right now, and I admit that didn't take that into
            consideration. I can only speak from my own experience in scouting, and that
            leads me to say and to continue to maintain that it doesn't seem
            unreasonable. It still seems to me a miniscule percentage when compared to
            annual total of all the other costs.



            And thankfully the scale of the increase is not on par with the absurd
            transportation example. If my transportation increased that much I would
            have to walk to scouts for sure.



            Ray

            _____

            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of corinnajones@...
            Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:18 PM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?








            The issue is really not the leaders' children, but those boys whose parents
            couldn't care less or are on the fence. There are lots of those, and I would

            hate to loose these boys, since they need the program most.
            The leaders who no longer have boys in the program, but used to pitch in for

            those who couldn't afford it might be forced to think twice during these
            tough times - financially and time-wise. Many struggling units in our area
            are run by non-parents, because the parents choose not to step up. These
            leaders are frequently active in their own kids' troops and crews, as well
            as commissioners, RT commissioners, and district sub-committee chairs.
            Please don't tell me they need to do more or do a better job.

            Corinna





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ftooth
            C mon, $5 a year is not a barrier . What are the other barriers to membership? Should membership be free? Scouting is not without cost, so WHO should pay
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 5, 2009
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              C'mon, $5 a year is not a "barrier". What are the other barriers to membership?

              Should membership be free? Scouting is not without cost, so WHO should pay the cost?

              What's the real gripe here, it can't be a lousy 5 bucks?
              Frank Toothaker

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:
              >
              > The BSA does not need another barrier to membership, either new or continued.
              >
              > Dave Gottshall
            • Brian Sutilla
              First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn t mean it is coming. Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave,
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn't mean it is coming.

                Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.


                Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are for a whole year.

                Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

                Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to support that and all of its activities.

                Ok, off my soap Box.

                Yours in Scouting,
                Brian Sutilla




                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:
                >
                > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
                > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
                >
                >
                >
                > Ray Scott
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of gottshalld@...
                > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; scouts-l@...
                > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
                >
                > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
                >
                > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and well
                > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
                >
                > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
                > even start.
                >
                > Dave Gottshall
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>
                > comcast.net>
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
                > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                >
                > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
                >
                > I just recieved this from our council office:
                >
                > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
                >
                > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
                > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
                > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
                > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
                > Exploring fee remains $10.
                >
                > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
                > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
                > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
                > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
                > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
                > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well as
                > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from staff
                > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
                > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase the
                > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
                > period of at least three years.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Melina Baker
                Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I m operating on the assumption it is true. When I posted something about the increase to our district s
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I'm operating on the
                  assumption it is true.



                  When I posted something about the increase to our district's yahoo group, I
                  also compared it to sports. Before we were a scouting family, we were a
                  soccer family. In my area, soccer was cheaper than any other sport for
                  registration and equipment, so it made for a good comparison. To
                  participate fully for a Cub Scout today wound up to be roughly the same cost
                  as to participate at a minimum for soccer (per costs seven years ago). We
                  paid in excess of $2,000 a year for my daughter, who was a star player,
                  deeply committed to the game, to play to the full level of her capabilities!
                  I pointed out to our group that nearly any activity can be as costly as
                  parents are willing to commit themselves to pay, but very few have such an
                  inexpensive buy-in as scouts - $25 for a year, and that includes a magazine.



                  Melina Baker

                  Cubmaster, Pack 403





                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Brian Sutilla
                  Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:17 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?








                  First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that
                  doesn't mean it is coming.

                  Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first
                  increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and
                  if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at
                  inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a
                  small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will
                  find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.

                  Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is
                  still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are
                  for a whole year.

                  Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

                  Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees
                  into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to
                  support that and all of its activities.

                  Ok, off my soap Box.

                  Yours in Scouting,
                  Brian Sutilla

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray
                  Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
                  > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ray Scott
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  Behalf
                  > Of gottshalld@...
                  > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                  scouts-l@...
                  > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
                  >
                  > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
                  >
                  > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and
                  well
                  > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
                  >
                  > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
                  > even start.
                  >
                  > Dave Gottshall
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>
                  > comcast.net>
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
                  > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                  >
                  > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
                  >
                  > I just recieved this from our council office:
                  >
                  > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
                  >
                  > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
                  > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
                  > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
                  > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
                  > Exploring fee remains $10.
                  >
                  > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
                  > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
                  > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
                  > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
                  > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
                  > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well
                  as
                  > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from
                  staff
                  > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
                  > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase
                  the
                  > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
                  > period of at least three years.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Christopher Connolly
                  I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn them away. 

                    The sports argument does not always work.  Some parents just don't care.
                     Chris Connolly




                    ________________________________
                    From: Melina Baker <melina@...>
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 12:48:02 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?





                    Our DE confirmed the rate increase this past week, so I'm operating on the
                    assumption it is true.

                    When I posted something about the increase to our district's yahoo group, I
                    also compared it to sports. Before we were a scouting family, we were a
                    soccer family. In my area, soccer was cheaper than any other sport for
                    registration and equipment, so it made for a good comparison. To
                    participate fully for a Cub Scout today wound up to be roughly the same cost
                    as to participate at a minimum for soccer (per costs seven years ago). We
                    paid in excess of $2,000 a year for my daughter, who was a star player,
                    deeply committed to the game, to play to the full level of her capabilities!
                    I pointed out to our group that nearly any activity can be as costly as
                    parents are willing to commit themselves to pay, but very few have such an
                    inexpensive buy-in as scouts - $25 for a year, and that includes a magazine.

                    Melina Baker

                    Cubmaster, Pack 403

                    From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                    Of Brian Sutilla
                    Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:17 AM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                    First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that
                    doesn't mean it is coming.

                    Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first
                    increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and
                    if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at
                    inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a
                    small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will
                    find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.

                    Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is
                    still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are
                    for a whole year.

                    Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.

                    Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees
                    into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to
                    support that and all of its activities.

                    Ok, off my soap Box.

                    Yours in Scouting,
                    Brian Sutilla

                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> , "Ray
                    Scott" <rayscott3@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay
                    > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ray Scott
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com>
                    [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ] On
                    Behalf
                    > Of gottshalld@. ..
                    > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM
                    > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ;
                    scouts-l@...
                    > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.
                    >
                    > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.
                    >
                    > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and
                    well
                    > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.
                    >
                    > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't
                    > even start.
                    >
                    > Dave Gottshall
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_ sandells% 40comcast. net>
                    > comcast.net>
                    > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_ t%40yahoogroups. com> ps.com
                    > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am
                    > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?
                    >
                    > Maybe I am behind on my reading...
                    >
                    > I just recieved this from our council office:
                    >
                    > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase
                    >
                    > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business
                    > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee
                    > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,
                    > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The
                    > Exploring fee remains $10.
                    >
                    > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both
                    > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National
                    > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to
                    > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council
                    > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the
                    > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well
                    as
                    > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from
                    staff
                    > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these
                    > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase
                    the
                    > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a
                    > period of at least three years.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • gottshalld@aol.com
                    Brian, If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Brian,

                      If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.

                      You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.

                      What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.

                      What about the BSA Foundation?

                      You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.

                      Dave Gottshall??




                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Brian Sutilla <spatula@...>
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:16 am
                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?































                      First to all...I have not seen this through my official channels. But that doesn't mean it is coming.



                      Second, Yes in 2003 it went from $7 to $10. But Dave, that was the first increase in the registration fee (not boys' life) since AT LEAST 1993 (and if memory serves it was a lot longer). If you truly want to look at inflation, look at the cost for scouting when it started to now. Not just a small period of time. I am not going to do that, but I am guessing you will find we are still way behind the cumulative inflation rate.



                      Third, How much do parents pay for soccer? Baseball? Football? etc? This is still a HUGE bargain!!! Oh and most of those are only for 6 weeks. We are for a whole year.



                      Fourth, every council has the "if you can't afford it, we will help" clause.



                      Lastly, Every unit should be building registration fees and boys life fees into their unit budget plans. The youth and unit should be fundraising to support that and all of its activities.



                      Ok, off my soap Box.



                      Yours in Scouting,

                      Brian Sutilla



                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Scott" <rayscott3@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > It doesn't seem unreasonable. I have three scouts in the program and I pay

                      > my fees as well. It's a matter of deciding what's important.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Ray Scott

                      >

                      > _____

                      >

                      > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

                      > Of gottshalld@...

                      > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:36 PM

                      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; scouts-l@...

                      > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > I am cross-posting my response to let others know about the increase.

                      >

                      > So in 2002 the fee was $7 and now $15.

                      >

                      > I would say that this is slightly higher that the rate of inflation and well

                      > ahead of most families increase in disposable income.

                      >

                      > ... we wonder why they leave ... now we can start wondering why they don't

                      > even start.

                      >

                      > Dave Gottshall

                      >

                      > -----Original Message-----

                      > From: Michael <the_sandells@ <mailto:the_sandells%40comcast.net>

                      > comcast.net>

                      > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com

                      > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 7:44 am

                      > Subject: [Scouter_T] Fee Increase?

                      >

                      > Maybe I am behind on my reading...

                      >

                      > I just recieved this from our council office:

                      >

                      > Traditional Membership Registration Fee Increase

                      >

                      > The BSA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution at the business

                      > meeting on May 22 to increase the traditional membership registration fee

                      > for all youth and adults to $15 from its current $10, effective Jan. 1,

                      > 2010. The last fee increase, which was from $7 to $10, was in 2003. The

                      > Exploring fee remains $10.

                      >

                      > A great deal of thought and consideration went into this decision by both

                      > the Executive Board and the Membership Fee Task Force led by National

                      > Commissioner Tico Perez. Consideration was given to an expected deficit to

                      > the National Council operating budget, the impact to program and council

                      > support, the necessary funding required over the next several years, the

                      > cost of implementing fee increases annually in systems and forms, as well as

                      > the overall fees paid by councils. Input was sought and received from staff

                      > and volunteers at the council level. Finally, given all these

                      > considerations, it was determined that the best approach was to increase the

                      > fee to the level chosen and make every effort to hold that level for a

                      > period of at least three years.

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >


























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Brant Lippincott
                      Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don t think that this increase is
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                        Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don't think that this increase is designed to bring IN anyone.  If I recall correctly, nation has said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the registration process - and nothing else.  I've been in IT for many years and banks used to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account on the books - that was 20 years ago.  The last time someone mentioned a figure it was more like $5.

                        Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee.  $60 and up.  Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their fee.  That would make the $5 increase a moot point.

                        Cub units don't charge a large annual fee, so that may be a potential problem...  If you approach it as "the BSA has made a small increase - due to an increase in their costs", I think most will not have a problem.  Remember that the actual cost of running the program is over $100/boy - typically funded thru FOS.

                        Stress the benefits - leadership, etc...  I don't think this will be a problem for most.

                        Brant Lippincott



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Christopher Connolly <fire_medic_cjc@...>
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:12:14 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                        I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in.  Too many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that this will only turn them away. 

                        The sports argument does not always work.  Some parents just don't care.
                         Chris Connolly
                      • ftooth
                        Not sure what your point is? The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That s a good thing, no? None are
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                          Not sure what your point is?

                          The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That's a good thing, no? None are mandatory; you donate out of the goodness of your heart. The membership fee is mandatory; members must pay $15 per year.
                          I've a sneakin' hunch that if there was no BSA Foundation, no FOS, and no West, the membership fee would be a tad higher. Maybe the membership fee should be $1,000 and the James West $15.

                          Maybe the national jamboree is a waste of money, maybe Philmont too? Maybe we should we scrap the Handbook, publications, Eagle program, etc etc.

                          Frank Toothaker
                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:
                          > Brian,
                          >
                          > If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.
                          >
                          > You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.
                          >
                          > What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.
                          >
                          > What about the BSA Foundation?
                          >
                          > You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.
                          >
                          > Dave Gottshall??
                        • bill smith
                          Most, almost all of us white middle class folk will gladly pay the extra $5 and hardly notice it. Since we make up the overwhelming majority of BSA membership,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                            Most, almost all of us white middle class folk
                            will gladly pay the extra $5 and hardly notice it.
                            Since we make up the overwhelming majority
                            of BSA membership, membership will suffer
                            only a negligible drop.
                            On the other hand, even with an unbelievable
                            drop of 10% in registration, BSA National will
                            still come out with a 35% increase in revenue,
                            The big losers will be a few single parent families
                            who will balance $5 against food and transportation
                            costs to and from work. Then there's those outreach
                            programs that are funded by fixed budgets. They
                            will drop one third of their members. Who cares?
                            They're just poor uderpriv. trash anyway.

                            Have a great time at the Jambo.

                            bill smith
                            The best gift for a Cub Scout.......
                            ......get his parents involved!
                            http://wtsmith.com/rt.html

                            Brant Lippincott wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit. Scouting DOES have a
                            > benefit. This is a relatively minor increase. I don't think that
                            > this increase is designed to bring IN anyone. If I recall correctly,
                            > nation has said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the
                            > registration process - and nothing else. I've been in IT for many
                            > years and banks used to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account
                            > on the books - that was 20 years ago. The last time someone mentioned
                            > a figure it was more like $5.
                            >
                            > Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee. $60 and
                            > up. Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their
                            > fee. That would make the $5 increase a moot point.
                            >
                            > Cub units don't charge a large annual fee, so that may be a potential
                            > problem... If you approach it as "the BSA has made a small increase -
                            > due to an increase in their costs", I think most will not have a
                            > problem. Remember that the actual cost of running the program is over
                            > $100/boy - typically funded thru FOS.
                            >
                            > Stress the benefits - leadership, etc... I don't think this will be a
                            > problem for most.
                            >
                            > Brant Lippincott
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: Christopher Connolly <fire_medic_cjc@...
                            > <mailto:fire_medic_cjc%40yahoo.com>>
                            > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 2:12:14 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?
                            >
                            > I think that this will cost us more scouts that it will bring in. Too
                            > many parents that already complain about the costs and I think that
                            > this will only turn them away.
                            >
                          • Roy Fisher
                            ... From: Brant Lippincott Subject: Re: Fee Increase? Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a benefit.  This is a relatively
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Brant Lippincott
                              Subject: Re: Fee Increase?

                              Cost is only a problem in absence of benefit.  Scouting DOES have a
                              benefit.  This is a relatively minor increase.  I don't think that this
                              increase is designed to bring IN anyone.  If I recall correctly, nation has
                              said that the old $10 fee covered the costs of running the registration
                              process - and nothing else.  I've been in IT for many years and banks used
                              to say that it cost $1/month to keep an account on the books - that was 20
                              years ago.  The last time someone mentioned a figure it was more like $5.

                              Many BOY scout units have a fairly significant annual fee.  $60 and up. 
                              Some SHOULD be willing to absorb this cost and not increase their fee.  That
                              would make the $5 increase a moot point.
                              >>>>>>>>>>>

                              If this were the only increase you might be right. Regarding the cost of
                              registration, most of that is borne by the local Councils not National.

                              But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                              (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                              than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the same
                              time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                              transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.

                              And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief, neckerchief
                              slide and hat each year.

                              I would be willing to bet that most units will not see a 50% increase in
                              their popcorn commissions or other fund raising activities. Given the
                              economic conditions in most areas of the country many units will be darned
                              lucky to stay flat from last year.

                              But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree site
                              somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?

                              In years past, our Troop has always paid for all of the youth and adult
                              registration. We were already discussing eliminating paying for adults
                              because of reductions in our fund raising income and increases in our other
                              costs; this nails the coffin shut.

                              Roy Fisher
                            • ftooth
                              Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment, transportation etc etc etc etc. It is ALL for the Scouts ! WHO besides Scouts SHOULD
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                                Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment, transportation etc etc etc etc.

                                It is ALL for the Scouts !

                                WHO besides Scouts SHOULD pay for it?? The Scoutmaster maybe? The taxpayer? WHO should pay? It ain't free!

                                Frank Toothaker

                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Fisher" <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                                > (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                                > than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the same
                                > time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                                > transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.
                                >
                                > And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief, neckerchief
                                > slide and hat each year...
                                >
                                > But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree site
                                > somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?
                              • gottshalld@aol.com
                                Frank, That is only the tip of the iceberg. FOS is voluntary.? But goodness of heart has nothing to do with it.? Every year the Council comes in to my unit
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
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                                  Frank,

                                  That is only the tip of the iceberg.

                                  FOS is voluntary.? But goodness of heart has nothing to do with it.? Every year the Council comes in to my unit crying poor mouth, setting a recommendation of donation of over $100 per family.? While I do feel bad for the local council and provide many hours attempting to support its program efforts and do write a check, I feel that the whole structure and accounting scheme can not be sustained on the backs of its members.

                                  I also feel that National is totally out-of-touch with both local councils and units.? In the Northeast, we have many local high adventure programs.? These programs provide a wide variety of locales and opportunities.? But there is no coordination, no National clearinghouse, no National support.? Now we see that National is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy, develop, and staff another National High Adventure.? IMHO, this is a colossal waste of money, places additional financial stress on local councils and their programs, with no benefit to youth or units.

                                  Do you remember the reason why uniforms cost so much?? The BSA wanted to have them "Made in America."? A noble goal and we all went along.? Now that the new uniforms are made overseas, did the cost of the uniforms go down in pricing consistent with the difference in manufacturing costs? Nope.Wind-fall profits to the BSA.

                                  Now the BSA through their new licensing agreements and enforcement programs, the BSA is driving small local service companies out of the scout service business and driving those that require anything with a BSA trademark to National Supply, National Scout Shops, or a select group of licensees that pay a fee to the BSA for the privilege to serve their members.? Those additional costs are being paid by the members in increased fee costs. More profits for the BSA.

                                  This is not a small increase.? With membership at just south of 3 million, this "small increase" generates an ADDITIONAL $15 MILLION.? What increase in service to my unit will I see for my units portion of this fee increase?

                                  So we see more of our monies going to Irving, continued decline in membership, National's own actions undermining the finances and programs of its local councils, and you ask me what the point is?

                                  Frank, can I be any clearer?

                                  Dave Gottshall





                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: ftooth <ftooth@...>
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 9:10 pm
                                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?































                                  Not sure what your point is?



                                  The BSA Foundation, FOS, and James West award are all designed to raise funds for Scouting. That's a good thing, no? None are mandatory; you donate out of the goodness of your heart. The membership fee is mandatory; members must pay $15 per year.

                                  I've a sneakin' hunch that if there was no BSA Foundation, no FOS, and no West, the membership fee would be a tad higher. Maybe the membership fee should be $1,000 and the James West $15.



                                  Maybe the national jamboree is a waste of money, maybe Philmont too? Maybe we should we scrap the Handbook, publications, Eagle program, etc etc.



                                  Frank Toothaker

                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:

                                  > Brian,

                                  >

                                  > If you want to go back, how far do you want to go?? How about 1910.? The cost of scouting in 1910 is a very small fraction of the cost of scouting in 2010.

                                  >

                                  > You only have to go back to the 1964 NJ to see the start of the gross inflation in the cost of? National events and the "Disneyization" which occurred during the A.P. Hill years.

                                  >

                                  > What about the hat-in-hand council program of SME/FOS and the contrived James E. West Buy-a-Knot.

                                  >

                                  > What about the BSA Foundation?

                                  >

                                  > You do not want to go down this road.? You will only make my point.

                                  >

                                  > Dave Gottshall??


























                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Roy Fisher
                                  You are absolutely right; someone has to pay. But by the same token at some point someone says it just ain t worth it. The BENEFIT you mention is very
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    You are absolutely right; someone has to pay. But by the same token at some
                                    point someone says "it just ain't worth it." The BENEFIT you mention is
                                    very intangible and often not even noticed for a number of years after
                                    leaving the program. Where is the tipping point were the cost exceeds the
                                    benefit? I'm sure I don't know, but I'm also sure that there will be a
                                    number of folks that will be 'running the numbers' the next time their unit
                                    recharters.

                                    I can go camping for much less and don't even have to mess with a tour
                                    permit.

                                    Roy Fisher

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of ftooth
                                    Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 8:56 PM
                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Fee Increase?

                                    Merit badge books, patches, handbooks, uniforms, jamboree site, equipment,
                                    transportation etc etc etc etc.

                                    It is ALL for the Scouts !

                                    WHO besides Scouts SHOULD pay for it?? The Scoutmaster maybe? The taxpayer?
                                    WHO should pay? It ain't free!

                                    Frank Toothaker

                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Fisher" <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > But let's look at the larger picture: 50% increase in registration fees
                                    > (hardly minor in my book), merit badge books that cost $4.95 up from less
                                    > than $3.00, rank patches, merit badges etc. increased over 100% in the
                                    same
                                    > time frame as the registration increase, higher camping fees, increased
                                    > transportation costs, the cost of equipment, and oh yeah the new uniform.

                                    >
                                    > And if you are in Cubs you get to buy a spiffy new neckerchief,
                                    neckerchief
                                    > slide and hat each year...
                                    >
                                    > But I guess BSA has to find the funding for their new National Jamboree
                                    site
                                    > somewhere, so why not put it on the backs of Scouts?



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