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Re: [Scouter_T] BALOO training - attendees who "already know everything"

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  • Kevin Pate
    Smile, offer empathy that with their vast experience it can be difficult to sit back, then give the hey, a light just starting glowing above my head, can you
    Message 1 of 10 , May 4 5:24 PM
      Smile, offer empathy that with their vast experience it can be difficult to sit back, then give the "hey, a light just starting glowing above my head, can you see it?!?" look and remind them you have their registration information and of course the council is always seeking out folks with great levels of past experience to recruit to help staff, or even direct future courses.  Note that because they care enough to come to a beginner's course they would be great rol models for others with far less experience, and indeed, they can help as an assistant during the upcoming round robins later in the day.
       
       
      They'll either catch on and hush, or leave skid marks as they flee toward the parking lot.  Either way, problem averted, if not entirely solved.
       
      Kevin in Norman, America
      whose former RT complaint forms looked suspiciously like RT staff volunteer forms

       
       




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sandra Martens
      when I have someone like that in my BALOO or OWL training I put them to work-helping the others, esp with knots, fire starting, camp set up ideas, and to run
      Message 2 of 10 , May 4 5:53 PM
        when I have someone like that in my BALOO or OWL training I put them to work-helping the others, esp with knots, fire starting, camp set up ideas, and to run our activities like scavenger hunt, nature critters, fire starters, etc.  then I ask them to help the next year.

        BTW- I have an old scouter going through the program again with his grandson.  He told me he didn't have to go through any outdoor training because he has done it all.  He's mostly done BS and hasn't been in CS for at least 20 yrs.  I told him to come anyway- Tigers can't don't Boy Scout stuff yet.

        he's coming.

        Sandy OWL

        --- On Mon, 5/4/09, aty2d <darleen.jeske@...> wrote:

        From: aty2d <darleen.jeske@...>
        Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO training - attendees who "already know everything"
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 2:39 PM

















        How do you folks handle the "know it alls" at BALOO trainings who say the training is a waste of their time because... (Eagle scout, former boy scout, go camping a lot, etc.).



        Many experience campers are great attendees - sharing their knowledge with others is great.



        My problem is the whiners who complain throughout the training because they already know everything!



        I would appreciate some template wording to use in the flyer so that people know upfront that nobody's grandfathered out because....



        thanks in advance for your help

        Yours in Scouting, Darleen































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Shilo
        I m having the same problem inside my pack! I have a Webelos Leader that is ex-military special forces. He doesn t think he needs any training. I just grin and
        Message 3 of 10 , May 4 6:52 PM
          I'm having the same problem inside my pack! I have a Webelos Leader that is ex-military special forces. He doesn't think he needs any training. I just grin and tell him that he will NOT take those boys camping without proper training. Our council requires certain training to do certain things and I told him that. I also told him that if he wants to go camping with his den then he must find a leader within the pack that has the required training or go to training.

          Others that say that they don't need training because past experiences I ask they to help out at training with less experienced campers, that usually gets them to training. (Expect the one in my pack =( he still thinks he don't need training)

          YIS,
          Shilo Nichols
          Andrew Jackson Council
          Eastern District Training Team
          Pack Trainer for Pack 575, Pearl, MS

          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...> wrote:
          >
          > when I have someone like that in my BALOO or OWL training I put them to work-helping the others, esp with knots, fire starting, camp set up ideas, and to run our activities like scavenger hunt, nature critters, fire starters, etc.  then I ask them to help the next year.
          >
          > BTW- I have an old scouter going through the program again with his grandson.  He told me he didn't have to go through any outdoor training because he has done it all.  He's mostly done BS and hasn't been in CS for at least 20 yrs.  I told him to come anyway- Tigers can't don't Boy Scout stuff yet.
          >
          > he's coming.
          >
          > Sandy OWL
          >
          > --- On Mon, 5/4/09, aty2d <darleen.jeske@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: aty2d <darleen.jeske@...>
          > Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO training - attendees who "already know everything"
          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 2:39 PM
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          > How do you folks handle the "know it alls" at BALOO trainings who say the training is a waste of their time because... (Eagle scout, former boy scout, go camping a lot, etc.).
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          > Many experience campers are great attendees - sharing their knowledge with others is great.
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          > My problem is the whiners who complain throughout the training because they already know everything!
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          > I would appreciate some template wording to use in the flyer so that people know upfront that nobody's grandfathered out because....
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          > thanks in advance for your help
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          > Yours in Scouting, Darleen
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        • Peter Mullaney
          Two quick things: I remind people that the purpose of the class is how to organize a successful Cub outing, not how to be a super camper. A Cub camping event
          Message 4 of 10 , May 4 8:35 PM
            Two quick things:

            I remind people that the purpose of the class is how to organize a
            successful Cub outing, not how to be a super camper. A Cub camping event is
            NOT a Boy Scout camping event and you can't treat it as such.

            I tell people that no matter how many times I've worked the class I
            invariably learn something new every class. I also solicit audience
            participation so these people can share their experiences. This usually is
            helpful when we talk about equipment.

            Other comments about recruiting them for staff have been made. Hopefully
            the one's who are 'legends in their own minds' won't take you up on the
            offer.


            Pete M.

            On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:39 PM, aty2d <darleen.jeske@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > How do you folks handle the "know it alls" at BALOO trainings who say the
            > training is a waste of their time because... (Eagle scout, former boy scout,
            > go camping a lot, etc.).
            >
            > Many experience campers are great attendees - sharing their knowledge with
            > others is great.
            >
            > My problem is the whiners who complain throughout the training because they
            > already know everything!
            >
            > I would appreciate some template wording to use in the flyer so that people
            > know upfront that nobody's grandfathered out because....
            >
            > thanks in advance for your help
            > Yours in Scouting, Darleen
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim & Chris Rooney
            A couple of observations and thoughts on this topic (from a former SF soldier myself - see sig line): • Camping with youngsters is SIGNIFICANTLY different
            Message 5 of 10 , May 5 5:12 AM
              A couple of observations and thoughts on this topic (from a former SF soldier myself - see sig line):

              • Camping with youngsters is SIGNIFICANTLY different that falling out of a plane or humping 20 miles into "Indian Country". (Obvious I know, but still...) The Army requires annual re-qualification on your primary and secondary weapons, even though you're "already trained", why do you suppose they do that. To ensure that key, core skills are retained and reinforced annually.
              • If you (ex-SF) Webelos leader is truly "ex-SF", he will know that training is for the benefit of all, not just the student, and that everyone in the class benefits from the experience of the rest.
              • BALOO is about planning and executing camping for kids and their families - NOT about the the instruction of backcountry camping skills. It is about how to adapt a camping activity to energize and excite inexperienced kids and family members into discovering the wonders of the outdoors.
              • Finally - as Scout Leaders - we are called to observe and live out the Scout Oath and Law. As a reminder, there are several that apply to this situation:


              • Scout Oath: "... To help other people at all times..." That means sharing your knowledge to other students in the class who can benefit from the depth of your experience.
              • Scout Law: "A scout is Loyal" (following those in leadership positions above them), "A Scout is Helpful" (sharing your experience and assisting in the successful execution of the class), "A Scout is Courteous" (allowing the class to proceed without interruption), "A Scout is Obedient" (following the rules of the organization s/he voluntarily joined).

              De Oppresso Liber...

              ---
              Jim Rooney
              Cubmaster - Pack 841 (ASM, Troop 868), Parker CO
              District Trainer, Pioneer Trails, Denver Area Council
              (ODA A21, 11SFGA, ODA B22, 10SFGA, 1st SF)
              (I used to be a Bobwhite..., and a Good Ol' Staffer too)

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Shilo" <shilochristy@...>
              To: "scouter t" <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, May 4, 2009 9:52:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO training - attendees who "already know everything"








              I'm having the same problem inside my pack! I have a Webelos Leader that is ex-military special forces. He doesn't think he needs any training. I just grin and tell him that he will NOT take those boys camping without proper training. Our council requires certain training to do certain things and I told him that. I also told him that if he wants to go camping with his den then he must find a leader within the pack that has the required training or go to training.

              Others that say that they don't need training because past experiences I ask they to help out at training with less experienced campers, that usually gets them to training. (Expect the one in my pack =( he still thinks he don't need training)

              YIS,
              Shilo Nichols
              Andrew Jackson Council
              Eastern District Training Team
              Pack Trainer for Pack 575, Pearl, MS

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com , Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...> wrote:
              >
              > when I have someone like that in my BALOO or OWL training I put them to work-helping the others, esp with knots, fire starting, camp set up ideas, and to run our activities like scavenger hunt, nature critters, fire starters, etc. then I ask them to help the next year.
              >
              > BTW- I have an old scouter going through the program again with his grandson. He told me he didn't have to go through any outdoor training because he has done it all. He's mostly done BS and hasn't been in CS for at least 20 yrs. I told him to come anyway- Tigers can't don't Boy Scout stuff yet.
              >
              > he's coming.
              >
              > Sandy OWL
              >
              > --- On Mon, 5/4/09, aty2d <darleen.jeske@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: aty2d <darleen.jeske@...>
              > Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO training - attendees who "already know everything"
              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 2:39 PM
              >
              >
              >
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              > How do you folks handle the "know it alls" at BALOO trainings who say the training is a waste of their time because... (Eagle scout, former boy scout, go camping a lot, etc.).
              >
              >
              >
              > Many experience campers are great attendees - sharing their knowledge with others is great.
              >
              >
              >
              > My problem is the whiners who complain throughout the training because they already know everything!
              >
              >
              >
              > I would appreciate some template wording to use in the flyer so that people know upfront that nobody's grandfathered out because....
              >
              >
              >
              > thanks in advance for your help
              >
              > Yours in Scouting, Darleen
              >
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ray Scott
              This MIGHT be the best post I ve ever seen here. Thanks for the perspective Jim. Ray Scott CM Pack 4126, Sylacauga AL _____ From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 10 , May 5 5:18 AM
                This MIGHT be the best post I've ever seen here. Thanks for the perspective
                Jim.

                Ray Scott

                CM Pack 4126, Sylacauga AL

                _____

                From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Jim & Chris Rooney
                Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 7:12 AM
                To: scouter t
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO training - attendees who "already know
                everything"

                A couple of observations and thoughts on this topic (from a former SF
                soldier myself - see sig line):

                . Camping with youngsters is SIGNIFICANTLY different that falling out of a
                plane or humping 20 miles into "Indian Country". (Obvious I know, but
                still...) The Army requires annual re-qualification on your primary and
                secondary weapons, even though you're "already trained", why do you suppose
                they do that. To ensure that key, core skills are retained and reinforced
                annually.
                . If you (ex-SF) Webelos leader is truly "ex-SF", he will know that training
                is for the benefit of all, not just the student, and that everyone in the
                class benefits from the experience of the rest.
                . BALOO is about planning and executing camping for kids and their families
                - NOT about the the instruction of backcountry camping skills. It is about
                how to adapt a camping activity to energize and excite inexperienced kids
                and family members into discovering the wonders of the outdoors.
                . Finally - as Scout Leaders - we are called to observe and live out the
                Scout Oath and Law. As a reminder, there are several that apply to this
                situation:

                . Scout Oath: "... To help other people at all times..." That means sharing
                your knowledge to other students in the class who can benefit from the depth
                of your experience.
                . Scout Law: "A scout is Loyal" (following those in leadership positions
                above them), "A Scout is Helpful" (sharing your experience and assisting in
                the successful execution of the class), "A Scout is Courteous" (allowing the
                class to proceed without interruption), "A Scout is Obedient" (following the
                rules of the organization s/he voluntarily joined).

                De Oppresso Liber...

                ---
                Jim Rooney
                Cubmaster - Pack 841 (ASM, Troop 868), Parker CO
                District Trainer, Pioneer Trails, Denver Area Council
                (ODA A21, 11SFGA, ODA B22, 10SFGA, 1st SF)
                (I used to be a Bobwhite..., and a Good Ol' Staffer too)
              • Bill Nelson
                I stole this from another council, but we are using it here: Ask any new Cub Scout why he wanted to join Scouting, and nine times out of ten, his answer will
                Message 7 of 10 , May 6 6:53 PM
                  I stole this from another council, but we are using it here:

                  Ask any new Cub Scout why he wanted to join Scouting, and nine times out of ten, his answer will be "to go camping." As his leader you may have the desire to follow through on the young boy's hope; however, you may not have the skills or the confidence to actually take him camping. The goal of the BALOO training experience is to provide you with the necessary skills and confidence to venture into the great outdoors with your Cub Scouts and provide them with a great first-time camping experience.

                  BALOO will help you gain knowledge of the BSA resources available to help carry out a successful pack camping activity and will provide the tools that you need to accomplish the goals for the Cub Scout camping program. It is very important that the boys' first-time camping experience be a good one – that the young Cub Scouts come home wanting more. To accomplish this goal, this training will focus on the health and safety of the participants, program planning, and a few basic outdoor skills.

                  ...

                  According to National BSA Standards, "Pack overnighters must be organized and led by an adult leader who has successfully completed BALOO training, within the past 2 years." Without a BALOO trained adult, packs CAN NOT participate in overnight camping except at council sponsored events. At least one adult from your pack must be BALOO trained to conduct a pack campout and must be in attendance at the campout.
                • Peter Mullaney
                  If you stole it from another council I believe they stole it from a video. ;-) By the way has the latest version of the CS Outdoor Program Guidelines been
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 7 9:56 AM
                    If you stole it from another council I believe they stole it from a video.
                    ;-)

                    By the way has the latest version of the CS Outdoor Program Guidelines been
                    posted in the files section? I haven't had a chance to look.

                    Our RT was great the other night - we staged it around an indoor
                    'campfire'. Participants were told to bring a camp chair to sit on. I got
                    to push our upcoming BALOO training. I told it like it is - the Scouting
                    course that they will have the most fun taking.

                    Pete M.

                    On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Bill Nelson <bnelson45@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > I stole this from another council, but we are using it here:
                    >
                    > Ask any new Cub Scout why he wanted to join Scouting, and nine times out of
                    > ten, his answer will be "to go camping." As his leader you may have the
                    > desire to follow through on the young boy's hope; however, you may not have
                    > the skills or the confidence to actually take him camping. The goal of the
                    > BALOO training experience is to provide you with the necessary skills and
                    > confidence to venture into the great outdoors with your Cub Scouts and
                    > provide them with a great first-time camping experience.
                    >
                    > BALOO will help you gain knowledge of the BSA resources available to help
                    > carry out a successful pack camping activity and will provide the tools that
                    > you need to accomplish the goals for the Cub Scout camping program. It is
                    > very important that the boys' first-time camping experience be a good one �
                    > that the young Cub Scouts come home wanting more. To accomplish this goal,
                    > this training will focus on the health and safety of the participants,
                    > program planning, and a few basic outdoor skills.
                    >
                    > ...
                    >
                    > According to National BSA Standards, "Pack overnighters must be organized
                    > and led by an adult leader who has successfully completed BALOO training,
                    > within the past 2 years." Without a BALOO trained adult, packs CAN NOT
                    > participate in overnight camping except at council sponsored events. At
                    > least one adult from your pack must be BALOO trained to conduct a pack
                    > campout and must be in attendance at the campout.
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lisa
                    ... I think a lot of the wording comes right from the Aims and Purposes section of BALOO too. I just taught it this weekend, but I don t have my book handy
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 7 10:14 AM
                      Peter Mullaney wrote:
                      > If you stole it from another council I believe they stole it from a video.
                      > ;-)
                      >

                      I think a lot of the wording comes right from the Aims and Purposes
                      section of BALOO too. I just taught it this weekend, but I don't have
                      my book handy to check.



                      --
                      Yours in Scouting,

                      Lisa Titus
                      CM Pack 358 http://www.pack358.us
                      ASM Troop 459 http://www.troop459.us
                      Daniel Webster Council http://www.nhscouting.org/
                      I used to be a Bear ... NE-I-250


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