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Re: [scots-origins] Migration to England.

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  • Janet
    Hi Alistair, I ve been thinking of what you have written here and, from the point of view of the professional researcher, I can understand that certainty has
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 22, 2004
      Hi Alistair,

      I've been thinking of what you have written here and, from the point of view of
      the professional researcher, I can understand that "certainty" has to be
      acceptable to the researcher. I don't accept any paper records where there is
      not some substantial evidence to confirm relationship, with earlier records I
      have found applying the same criteria. I suppose I am fortunate in that I spent
      several years searching through title deeds of families. I try and find the
      birth record to confirm the parentage because we find so often repetitive naming
      patterns. Then I look for marriage confirmation and the death records,
      hopefully to find the informant, a sibling, or parent even. Perhaps I have
      been very fortunate up to now.
      I don't consider you have wandered off my original question because its
      interesting to know what standards others apply. I found a parent for my
      individual and the only hope I have of being able to validate them is as someone
      has said in Parish records but until then, they will be noted on my brick wall
      as a conundrum still to be confirmed. I couldn't possibly accept the names of
      people that I haven't been able to confirm in some way because I feel I am
      responsible for passing on records that can be relied upon by my successors who
      may find an interest in it when I am gone.
      Even more recent register entries were made by the individual themselves. Here
      in the UK now the census forms are filled in by the head of the family and
      collected by the Census Clerks.

      Janet


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Alistair Cameron" <acameron@...>

      > Pre Civil registration years the records are sparse and elementary in detail.
      > "CERTAINTY" has to be in the judgement of the researcher rather that in the
      > wording of paper records. One may be
      > lucky and find a useful group of confirming records. Sadly these are often
      > dated as at death of the subject- a burial registration, will, tombstone
      > inscription, obituary, transfer of title
      > to the lands of the deceased may not cover the marriage and other LIFE data re
      > the deceased.
      >
      > An important limitation to "certainty" is the fact that even recent register
      > entries, are not claimed to be truthful. The Registrar will merely assert that
      > "this is the Information which we
      > were given". If the Informant gets it wrong, tough luck for us!!
      >
      > Sorry Janet, that I have wandered off your specific query.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > ALISTAIR M. CAMERON http://quozl.netrek.org/cameron-research/
    • Janet
      Susan, that s very kind. I ll flag this mail for the purposes of sharing later. I do have his occupation, and the Church where he was married, where his
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 22, 2004
        Susan, that's very kind. I'll flag this mail for the purposes of sharing
        later. I do have his occupation, and the Church where he was married, where his
        children were baptised, and a note of his death in England. I just need his
        birth certificate to give me his parents' names and then I would be leaping over
        the wall again.

        Have a good Christmas one and all.

        Janet


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Susan Harvey" <pippyx@...>

        >
        > Janet,
        > I too have this problem .
        > My gt--grandfather was born in 1784 in Biggar Lanarkshire ,Scotland. and was
        > in Wales by 1810.This is all I know about the Scottish side of my research.I
        > have an advantage after he came toWales as a special document exists.
        >
        > Do you have any idea what your ancestor /family did for a living or Church
        > wise, medals prizes, wills made , etc as there are many organisations that
        > have vey early records in England and Wales.
        > I am going to be away until 29/12 but if you like to get back to me with any
        > *snippets of information however vague will follow up.
        > Look forward to hearing from you .
        > Seasons Greetings,
        > Sue in LLantrisant Wales UK
      • Janet
        Hope you had a good Christmas Susan. Here s the information. David Kirkpatrick was born 1783 m. Bold Street Liverpool Universalist in 1818 and died 1837 He
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2005
          Hope you had a good Christmas Susan. Here's the information.

          David Kirkpatrick was born 1783 m. Bold Street Liverpool Universalist in 1818
          and died 1837
          He was listed as having an occupation of "Surgeon". I've checked out as much as
          I can about the possibility of being a medical practitioner, an SKS did likewise
          and drew blanks.
          In some records I have there is a useful indication as to whether they were born
          in the County and I seem to remember I saw that the reply against his name was
          "No".

          We know from history that the Scots came into England down the west coast.

          David Kirkpatricks last daughter, born 1833 was named Elizabeth Johnson
          Kirkpatrick. The naming pattern suggests to me that Johnson might have been
          David Kirkpatrick's mother's maiden name suggesting also they came from Scotland
          and Dumfries where the Johnson family are significant.

          If you can do any look ups I would be extremely grateful.

          Janet



          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Susan Harvey" <pippyx@...>
          >
          >>
          >> Janet,
          >> I too have this problem .
          >> My gt--grandfather was born in 1784 in Biggar Lanarkshire ,Scotland. and was
          >> in Wales by 1810.This is all I know about the Scottish side of my research.I
          >> have an advantage after he came toWales as a special document exists.
          >>
          >> Do you have any idea what your ancestor /family did for a living or Church
          >> wise, medals prizes, wills made , etc as there are many organisations that
          >> have vey early records in England and Wales.
          >> I am going to be away until 29/12 but if you like to get back to me with any
          >> *snippets of information however vague will follow up.
          >> Look forward to hearing from you .

          >> Seasons Greetings,
          >> Sue in LLantrisant Wales UK
        • Rena MCCARTHY
          Hi, I discovered this site which helped me follow my grandparents from Glasgow to England. Part of the site is funded with Lottery money and is organised by
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2005
            Hi,
            I discovered this site which helped me follow my grandparents from Glasgow
            to England. Part of the site is funded with Lottery money and is organised
            by Lincolnshire University. Currently is shows digital images of English
            and Welsh trade and residential directories from 1855 to 1913.

            There are some northern England directories, so if you have Border families
            or possibly have a tradesman or a seafarer disappear from Scotland for a
            while you may be
            lucky enough to find them here.

            www.historicaldirectories.org

            Happy Hunting in 2005 everyone.
            Rena
            ==
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Janet"
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Alistair Cameron
          • IACSCOTT@aol.com
            In a message dated 04/01/2005 16:01:16 GMT Standard Time, wightway@clara.co.uk writes: I suppose I am fortunate in that I spent several years searching
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2005
              In a message dated 04/01/2005 16:01:16 GMT Standard Time,
              wightway@... writes:

              I suppose I am fortunate in that I spent
              several years searching through title deeds of families. I try and find
              the
              birth record to confirm the parentage because we find so often repetitive
              naming
              patterns. Then I look for marriage confirmation and the death records,
              hopefully to find the informant, a sibling, or parent even. Perhaps I have
              been very fortunate up to now.



              Hi Janet

              You have been fortunate to be able to document everything so thoroughly. For
              many of us our ancestors were farm servants, domestic servants, mill
              workers, and the like who lived in tied cottages during their period of service with
              a particular employer and few had anything worthwhile to necessitate the
              writing of a will so places like Scottish Documents or the Register of Sasines
              hold very little promise of information. This leaves us with the OPR's,
              Monumental Inscriptions and, perhaps, a snippet or two in a newspaper archive or
              those of the estate on which they worked along with a few family letters or
              photographs which have had names written on them. It was not until I was
              researching in the 1920s that I found a property owner and a will in my direct line
              and then going backwards I was back into the early 1700's before I found
              another but that property did not come down my line as it was a daughter which
              made the connection and in those days the property passed to the eldest son.

              As I see it, the further back you go the less certain you can be that you
              have the correct individual as records are scarce and in many cases what is
              there gives only the briefest of information. Personally, if I can feel
              reasonably comfortable (but not absolutely certain) I have found the correct person I
              will enter the information into the records but add a note with any
              reservations I have. In this way I feel I am telling anyone interested the ground
              that has been covered but they should be prepared to do further research.

              As an aside when researching one of my ancestors I found he had worked for
              the Duke of Gordon and Richmond on the estate at Gordon Castle and in the
              National Archives I read in the Estate papers that in 1836 the workers were
              invited to a meal in the Castle in December. Each man was to take with him a
              knife, fork and spoon and he could invite his wife or a lady friend to join the
              party in the evening (they did not partake of the meal) but the men were
              reminded 'the females are to be of good moral character'. The workers names were
              listed.

              Ian A C Scott


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alistair Cameron
              ... For Scotland records of rural families before 1800 one can be easily stalled with primary paper records. These need to be placed before the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2005
                Thanks to Janet, who wrote:

                > Hi Alistair,
                >
                > I've been thinking of what you have written here and, from the point of view of
                > the professional researcher, I can understand that "certainty" has to be
                > acceptable to the researcher. I don't accept any paper records where there is
                > not some substantial evidence to confirm relationship, with earlier records I
                > have found applying the same criteria.

                For Scotland records of rural families before 1800 one can be easily stalled with <unconfirmed> primary paper records. These need to be placed before the client of course, with some care!

                Even more recent register entries were made by the individual themselves. Here

                > in the UK now the census forms are filled in by the head of the family and
                > collected by the Census Clerks.
                >

                A great advance, thanks to Universal Education in the more civilised countries. But not an option in pre- 1800 UK. In England where English is still the majority language, 3/4 of the
                England and Wales persons aged 14 in 1840 were unable to write, p.697 "Groundwork of British History" refers.


                Cheers,

                ALISTAIR M. CAMERON http://quozl.netrek.org/cameron-research/

                PO Box 215 BUNDANOON NSW 2578 AUSTRALIA
              • Janet
                Many thanks for offering the link. I didn t find my Surgeon but will keep a check on the site in future. Janet ... From: Rena MCCARTHY
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 5, 2005
                  Many thanks for offering the link. I didn't find my Surgeon but will keep a
                  check on the site in future.

                  Janet



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Rena MCCARTHY" <Rena@...>


                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > I discovered this site which helped me follow my grandparents from Glasgow
                  > to England. Part of the site is funded with Lottery money and is organised
                  > by Lincolnshire University. Currently is shows digital images of English
                  > and Welsh trade and residential directories from 1855 to 1913.
                  >
                  > There are some northern England directories, so if you have Border families
                  > or possibly have a tradesman or a seafarer disappear from Scotland for a
                  > while you may be
                  > lucky enough to find them here.
                  >
                  > www.historicaldirectories.org
                  >
                  > Happy Hunting in 2005 everyone.
                  > Rena
                  > ==
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Janet"
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Alistair Cameron
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------
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                • Janet
                  Interesting Ian, thank you for your response. I should say I have also been fortunate to have people find information for me without even asking, the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 5, 2005
                    Interesting Ian, thank you for your response. I should say I have also been
                    fortunate to have people find information for me without even asking, the
                    camaraderie in these groups is encouraging and quite amazing. My maternal line
                    were either farmers themselves or in the printing industry in Scotland and a son
                    of a Scottish printer took his knowledge to London. My paternal line was even
                    more amazing in that no sooner had I got the name of my natural father's parents
                    and typed it into Genes Reunited I was told there was someone there looking for
                    that very person. Imagine my surprise to find my grandfather had been a busy
                    man and fathered more children than I could possibly imagine. It was not that
                    there were others with the same name, but that he had been married 3 times. A
                    contact with the member on GR produced a complete line back to the mid 1700s and
                    a live cousin I didn't know I had.

                    It is clearly a shame that more information of an earlier date is not available,
                    though I suppose it might be in future. I'm now back to 1776ish and looking at
                    Parish records where I know the identity of the Parish, but it's nay easy in
                    Scotland. Are there any records of changes in parish designations?

                    Janet


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <IACSCOTT@...>

                    > Hi Janet
                    >
                    > You have been fortunate to be able to document everything so thoroughly. For
                    > many of us our ancestors were farm servants, domestic servants, mill
                    > workers, and the like who lived in tied cottages during their period of
                    > service with
                    > a particular employer and few had anything worthwhile to necessitate the
                    > writing of a will so places like Scottish Documents or the Register of
                    > Sasines
                    > hold very little promise of information. This leaves us with the OPR's,
                    > Monumental Inscriptions and, perhaps, a snippet or two in a newspaper archive
                    > or
                    > those of the estate on which they worked along with a few family letters or
                    > photographs which have had names written on them. It was not until I was
                    > researching in the 1920s that I found a property owner and a will in my direct
                    > line
                    > and then going backwards I was back into the early 1700's before I found
                    > another but that property did not come down my line as it was a daughter which
                    > made the connection and in those days the property passed to the eldest son.
                    >
                    > As I see it, the further back you go the less certain you can be that you
                    > have the correct individual as records are scarce and in many cases what is
                    > there gives only the briefest of information. Personally, if I can feel
                    > reasonably comfortable (but not absolutely certain) I have found the correct
                    > person I
                    > will enter the information into the records but add a note with any
                    > reservations I have. In this way I feel I am telling anyone interested the
                    > ground
                    > that has been covered but they should be prepared to do further research.
                    >
                    > As an aside when researching one of my ancestors I found he had worked for
                    > the Duke of Gordon and Richmond on the estate at Gordon Castle and in the
                    > National Archives I read in the Estate papers that in 1836 the workers were
                    > invited to a meal in the Castle in December. Each man was to take with him a
                    > knife, fork and spoon and he could invite his wife or a lady friend to join
                    > the
                    > party in the evening (they did not partake of the meal) but the men were
                    > reminded 'the females are to be of good moral character'. The workers names
                    > were
                    > listed.
                    >
                    > Ian A C Scott
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