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Re: [scots-origins] Are some names interchangeable?

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  • Sheena Jarvis
    As I found out with my biggest brick walls 2 names can prove a confusion. In my case my GGG. G father went with his birth surname, then when his mother
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 28, 2004
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      As I found out with my biggest 'brick walls '2 names can prove a confusion. In my case my GGG. G father went with his 'birth' surname, then when his mother remarried he took on her new surname, then later switched back to the original birth -father surname. I would not have caught on had I not sought help from a researcher.
      I had seen some clues but unaware of the connection had disregarded them only to find they were relevant. So perhaps your 'confusion' may be of the same like. Sheena


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • IACSCOTT@aol.com
      Hi The question may be resolved by considering whether the individual is married or single. It has to be remembered that in Scotland a woman does not lose her
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 28, 2004
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        Hi

        The question may be resolved by considering whether the individual is
        married or single. It has to be remembered that in Scotland a woman does not lose
        her own name on marriage and may continue to use her maiden name after
        marriage. There are many instances where a married woman is recorded by her maiden
        name in the Census but will be known by her husband's surname in daily life.

        Confusing, but nonetheless it is the situation and could explain your
        McConochy/Duncan dilemma.

        Ian A C Scott.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • SnowQueen1962@aol.com
        I was told that MacRae and McCraw were but now I don t believe it. Do alot of checking before you are taken in like I was, Alice I wonder if the surnames-
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 28, 2004
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          I was told that MacRae and McCraw were but now I don't believe it. Do alot
          of checking before you are taken in like I was, Alice

          I wonder if the surnames- McConochy and Duncan are sometimes
          interchangeable. It would help my research to know whether I'm
          looking for two different people or just one woman who somtimes goes
          by McConochy and other times by Duncan. Many thanks!

          Robert F. Cathcart, M.D. orthomed.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Katherine Liney
          Hi I didn t see the first message in this thread but as far as I know McConnachie (a sept of Clan Robertson) is actually son of Duncan so that might be the
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Hi
            I didn't see the first message in this thread but as far as I know
            McConnachie (a sept of Clan Robertson) is actually "son of Duncan" so that
            might be the anser
            Kay


            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          • Tom McQuarrie
            I have a question and I am asking it with all due respect. Perhaps I should explain that I have a brick wall and I can not put a crack in it. I understand that
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 1, 2004
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              I have a question and I am asking it with all due respect. Perhaps I should
              explain that I have a brick wall and I can not put a crack in it. I
              understand that people can get locked into their beliefs , Like "I
              researched my family tree all the way back to Adam" but at the same time
              (particularly when your up against a brick wall) it would be easy to connect
              the dots by a formula that gets around the brick wall but .....That even
              gets harder when we grew up in a different time and culture then our
              ancestors.
              Believe me I want to crack the code nothing more
              How can you be sure ?
              Tom McQuarrie
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sheena Jarvis" <sheenajarvis@...>
              To: <scots-origins@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:48 AM
              Subject: Re: [scots-origins] Are some names interchangeable?


              >
              > As I found out with my biggest 'brick walls '2 names can prove a
              > confusion. In my case my GGG. G father went with his 'birth' surname, then
              > when his mother remarried he took on her new surname, then later switched
              > back to the original birth -father surname. I would not have caught on had
              > I not sought help from a researcher.
              > I had seen some clues but unaware of the connection had disregarded them
              > only to find they were relevant. So perhaps your 'confusion' may be of the
              > same like. Sheena
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------
              > This message comes from the Scots Origins Discussion Group, sponsored by
              > Scots Origins (www.scotsorigins.com). The group has been set up so that
              > members can share genealogical information about Scotland, to reply send
              > an email to scots-origins@yahoogroups.com
              >
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              > scots-origins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            • Katherine Liney
              Hello In the area I live, and research in, McRae and McRaw are most definitely interchangeable, but not always!! Kay
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 1, 2004
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                Hello
                In the area I live, and research in, McRae and McRaw are most definitely
                interchangeable, but not always!!
                Kay


                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Anne Brennan
                Hi I think the solution might be in looking at the possibility of a change from Gaelic to English or Scots. Condochie/Conochie (various spellings) seems to be
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 2, 2004
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                  Hi
                  I think the solution might be in looking at the possibility of a change from
                  Gaelic to English or Scots. Condochie/Conochie (various spellings) seems to
                  be the Gaelic equivalent of Duncan (to this day some Duncan's are nicknamed
                  'Doakie', 'Dochie' etc. in some areas.

                  Thus someone who is literally 'the son of Duncan', could be called Duncanson
                  or MacCondochie, and remember also that when names were being written down,
                  particularly from the Gaelic, phonetic spelling was often the rule if the
                  writer was not themselves a Gaelic speaker.
                • Janet
                  You ve given me an in here. I am firmly of the belief that in searching genealogy you have to be aware of all the tangled webs that human beings weave and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 2, 2004
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                    You've given me an "in" here. I am firmly of the belief that in
                    searching genealogy you have to be aware of all the tangled webs that
                    human beings weave and all the sadness that struck in families in
                    Scotland, particularly the poor areas, those who were Roman Catholics.

                    With the help of an online angel, we untangled a conundrum I had. A
                    grandfather with a name the same as two others? Nope, my grandfather
                    was widowed twice before he married my grandmother for the third time.
                    All three wives predeceased him, dying in childbirth or consumption,
                    several children did not survive beyond their first birthday. My
                    grandfather's address at the time of marriage and the time of birth
                    and death we could link together to confirm the scenario.

                    Tis a good thing if you have a calculator built into your keyboard as
                    I have. ;-)
                    Check out the date of birth with the date of marriage and the date of
                    the last child, that will tell you a lot - whether or not all the
                    children are of the same parent. That's another conundrum my
                    ancestors have caused me. If by chance you find that a woman
                    couldn't possibly have had a child at 75 you know you could have her
                    birth date wrong or that all the children are not hers; they could
                    even be her husband's from a former marriage. You find that she might
                    have been older than her husband, even that she was pregnant before
                    she married and being able to link the people together by addresses,
                    but you only get that when you can check out records.

                    Hope I have given you something to think about that you haven't
                    already. :-)

                    Janet


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Tom McQuarrie" <tishimself@...>

                    >
                    > I have a question and I am asking it with all due respect. Perhaps I
                    > should
                    > explain that I have a brick wall and I can not put a crack in it. I
                    > understand that people can get locked into their beliefs , Like "I
                    > researched my family tree all the way back to Adam" but at the same
                    > time
                    > (particularly when your up against a brick wall) it would be easy to
                    > connect
                    > the dots by a formula that gets around the brick wall but .....That
                    > even
                    > gets harder when we grew up in a different time and culture then our
                    > ancestors.
                    > Believe me I want to crack the code nothing more
                    > How can you be sure ?
                    > Tom McQuarrie
                  • Tolegranny
                    I have similiar names interchangeable in my family. McQueen, Queen and Quin. This has caused me to be pressed hard against the brick wall in my research.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 2, 2004
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                      I have similiar names interchangeable in my family. McQueen, Queen and
                      Quin. This has caused me to be pressed hard against the brick wall in my
                      research.

                      *****
                      Brush Hugs & Stamped Kisses
                      Tolegranny
                      Beautiful Southern Ontario
                      http://community.webshots.com/user/tolegranny
                      mail to: ruralroote@...

                      >
                    • Sheena Jarvis
                      Judging from your answer it would appear you took some sort of offence I cannot see why! I was just giving you a possible answer through my own experience. My
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 2, 2004
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                        Judging from your answer it would appear you took some sort of offence I cannot see why! I was just giving you a possible answer through my own experience. My 'brick wall ' took 5 years to break through and I had to turn to someone who had a little more experience than I. I know only too well how frustrating it can be wading through the maze to reach the 'prize'. Sheena


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carole
                        Hi Tom I think all we can do is the best we can. I know with researching my family tree like you I have hit brick walls that a crack is no existant which is
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          Hi Tom
                          I think all we can do is the best we can. I know with researching my family tree like you I have hit brick walls that a crack is no existant which is frustrating but we just have to keep going. I write what I find and there is usually someone out there who will tell you if it is wrong. I always say to people that this is what I have found it is all done to the best of my knowledge and if there is something that they know to be wrong I will correct it but I need proof from them that what I have written is wrong and only then will I correct it. Others of more experience here will no doubt be able to answer you better.
                          Carole

                          Tom McQuarrie <tishimself@...> wrote:

                          I have a question and I am asking it with all due respect. Perhaps I should
                          explain that I have a brick wall and I can not put a crack in it. I
                          understand that people can get locked into their beliefs , Like "I
                          researched my family tree all the way back to Adam" but at the same time
                          (particularly when your up against a brick wall) it would be easy to connect
                          the dots by a formula that gets around the brick wall but .....That even
                          gets harder when we grew up in a different time and culture then our
                          ancestors.
                          Believe me I want to crack the code nothing more
                          How can you be sure ?
                          Tom McQuarrie
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Sheena Jarvis"
                          To:
                          Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:48 AM
                          Subject: Re: [scots-origins] Are some names interchangeable?


                          >
                          > As I found out with my biggest 'brick walls '2 names can prove a
                          > confusion. In my case my GGG. G father went with his 'birth' surname, then
                          > when his mother remarried he took on her new surname, then later switched
                          > back to the original birth -father surname. I would not have caught on had
                          > I not sought help from a researcher.
                          > I had seen some clues but unaware of the connection had disregarded them
                          > only to find they were relevant. So perhaps your 'confusion' may be of the
                          > same like. Sheena
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------------------------------------------------
                          > This message comes from the Scots Origins Discussion Group, sponsored by
                          > Scots Origins (www.scotsorigins.com). The group has been set up so that
                          > members can share genealogical information about Scotland, to reply send
                          > an email to scots-origins@yahoogroups.com
                          >
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                          >
                          >




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                        • Wayne D. Jackson
                          Indeed, I know what you mean, with my family of McGEN, aka McGAN, McGANN, McGAAN, and probably McGeachan, MacGahan, MacGachane, Maghan, Magan, Machan, etc.,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 4, 2004
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                            Indeed, I know what you mean, with my family of McGEN, aka McGAN, McGANN,
                            McGAAN, and probably McGeachan, MacGahan, MacGachane, Maghan, Magan,
                            Machan, etc., derivations; and all these Scottish (no Irish relatives yet
                            found even though I am in the mid-1700s searching Strathclyde, Nithsdale,
                            and Galloway! ). Variants of this Scottish name are even found on the
                            signatories of the Ragman Roll of 1296, with "Mac Gahen, Roland (del counte
                            de Wiggeton)" and "Maghan, Patrik de (del counte de Lanark)" and "Maghan,
                            William de (del counte de Lanark)," though I dare not claim any direct
                            descent without proof. With it might come the shame of knowing they
                            submitted to the English King Edward I, during his conquest of Scotland.
                            But, I really don't believe in the taint of "blood guilt"!

                            By the way, for the names on the Ragman Roll of 1296, please see:
                            http://www.rampantscotland.com/ragman/

                            Not that there is anything wrong having with an Irish heritage in Scotland
                            (who doesn't and is a pure-blooded Pict?), but I doubt if I will ever know
                            if my family is from Dal Raida, or are Gall Gaels, or refugees from later
                            social. political, religious, or economic turmoil! Mine may have even fled
                            the Great Irish Famine of 1741 (SIC, not the1840s!). Or that search may end
                            in a bind alley.

                            I am sure there are thousands of Scottish surnames that have hundreds of
                            thousands of phonetic variants. We shan't be bored in our hunt for
                            ancestors! 'Tis fun to pound our heads against that brick wall, because it
                            feels so good when we pause for a rest!

                            Wayne
                            Kirkland, Washington, USA



                            At 07:46 AM 11/2/2004 -0500, Tolegranny wrote:

                            >I have similiar names interchangeable in my family. McQueen, Queen and
                            >Quin. This has caused me to be pressed hard against the brick wall in my
                            >research.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Carole
                            Hi Folks My maiden name is one that has many spellings and pronunciations. We say it as Menzies but in Scotland I have heard that it is Mingus and I have heard
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 4, 2004
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                              Hi Folks
                              My maiden name is one that has many spellings and pronunciations. We say it as Menzies but in Scotland I have heard that it is Mingus and I have heard there are other variations so I have hit a brick wall for this part of my research as well.
                              Carole

                              Tolegranny <ruralroote@...> wrote:

                              I have similiar names interchangeable in my family. McQueen, Queen and
                              Quin. This has caused me to be pressed hard against the brick wall in my
                              research.

                              *****
                              Brush Hugs & Stamped Kisses
                              Tolegranny
                              Beautiful Southern Ontario
                              http://community.webshots.com/user/tolegranny
                              mail to: ruralroote@...

                              >



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                            • Robert Worden
                              I really can t answer your question. However, my wife s family has some interesting spellings which all trace back to the same three brothers. Her family uses
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                I really can't answer your question. However, my wife's family has
                                some interesting spellings which all trace back to the same three
                                brothers. Her family uses the McCuiston spelling but it is also
                                found as McCuistion, McQuistan, McQuiston, McQuistion, McChristian,
                                McQueston, on and on etc. The name results from trying to spell it
                                the way it is pronounced and the family pronounces it differently,
                                from McOoshton, McChristain, McQuestion, to McHughston. Take your
                                pick, it is the same family. So, does it happen -absolutely yes it
                                does. Does it happen in your family - I don't have the foggiest.

                                --- In scots-origins@yahoogroups.com, "bondgen" <bondgen@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I wonder if the surnames- McConochy and Duncan are sometimes
                                > interchangeable. It would help my research to know whether I'm
                                > looking for two different people or just one woman who somtimes
                                goes
                                > by McConochy and other times by Duncan. Many thanks!
                              • Gordon Moir
                                Mingus is the correct pronunciation in Scotland. It is not unusual for words here, to sound different than they spell. eg., well known ones are Milngavie,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                  Mingus is the correct pronunciation in Scotland. It is not unusual for words here, to sound different
                                  than they spell. eg., well known ones are Milngavie, is pronounced Mulguy. Daziel. is pronounced Dee-ell, Buckhaven is Buckhind, don't ask me why...Gordie

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Carole
                                  To: scots-origins@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:34 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [scots-origins] Are some names interchangeable?



                                  Hi Folks
                                  My maiden name is one that has many spellings and pronunciations. We say it as Menzies but in Scotland I have heard that it is Mingus and I have heard there are other variations so I have hit a brick wall for this part of my research as well.
                                  Carole

                                  Tolegranny <ruralroote@...> wrote:

                                  I have similiar names interchangeable in my family. McQueen, Queen and
                                  Quin. This has caused me to be pressed hard against the brick wall in my
                                  research.

                                  *****
                                  Brush Hugs & Stamped Kisses
                                  Tolegranny
                                  Beautiful Southern Ontario
                                  http://community.webshots.com/user/tolegranny
                                  mail to: ruralroote@...

                                  >



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                                • Janet
                                  Sometimes its only with the addition of an s or an i rather than an e ; I ve thought this is due to people s hand writing. Janet ... From: Robert
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                    Sometimes its only with the addition of an "s" or an "i" rather than
                                    an "e"; I've thought this is due to people's hand writing.

                                    Janet


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Robert Worden" <rworden@...>


                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I really can't answer your question. However, my wife's family has
                                    > some interesting spellings which all trace back to the same three
                                    > brothers. Her family uses the McCuiston spelling but it is also
                                    > found as McCuistion, McQuistan, McQuiston, McQuistion, McChristian,
                                    > McQueston, on and on etc. The name results from trying to spell it
                                    > the way it is pronounced and the family pronounces it differently,
                                    > from McOoshton, McChristain, McQuestion, to McHughston. Take your
                                    > pick, it is the same family. So, does it happen -absolutely yes it
                                    > does. Does it happen in your family - I don't have the foggiest.
                                    >
                                  • Bonnie
                                    Thank-you to everyone who responded to my email asking about the names Duncan and McConochy. It seems possible that my gg grandmother may have had her maiden
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 11, 2004
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                                      Thank-you to everyone who responded to my email asking about the names Duncan and McConochy. It seems possible that my gg grandmother may have had her maiden name recorded for the births of her children by different people and different methods- Gaelic for some and English for the others. I will never be sure of that unless I do more research but your thoughts and opinions were very much appreciated!
                                      The research concerns the Lamonts living at Piperhall, Isle of Bute in the1840 -1880 timeframe. Duncan and Isabella Lamont had six children- four of which were registered as having parents Duncan Lamont and Isabella(McConochy) and the last two -Duncan Lamont and Isabella (Duncan). I have not been able to find any info on Isabella - birth, marriage etc. I don't know where she came from. The other burning question is about where they lived. The 1841 census shows them living at Butt Maddy. I wonder if this might have been the name of their property. I would appreciate any help.
                                      Thanks again.
                                      Bonnie

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • bondgen
                                      Thankyou to everyone who responded to my question. It seems the general consensus is that the names Duncan and McConochy are likely the same due to the Gaelic
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 11, 2004
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                                        Thankyou to everyone who responded to my question. It seems the
                                        general consensus is that the names Duncan and McConochy are likely
                                        the same due to the Gaelic influence. I realize that I need to do
                                        more research to be sure I'm dealing with one person - not two.
                                        The research is about the Lamont family living at Piperhall, Isle of
                                        Bute, Scotland in the 1840- 1870 timeframe. These were my gg
                                        grandparents- Duncan and Isabella Lamont who had six children. The
                                        mother's maiden name for the first 4 children was listed as McConochy
                                        and was listed as Duncan for the last 2. I hve not been able to find
                                        any other info on Isabella- birth, marriage etc. The other burning
                                        question was the place they lived on the 1841 census-"Butt
                                        Maddy."This does not seem to be a village or town. I wonder if their
                                        property had this name. I would appreciate any help!
                                        Thanks again.
                                        Bonnie
                                      • Katherine Liney
                                        I have forwarded your message to another researcher from the Isle of Bute (she also grew up there and might be able to help with the place name) Her Robertsons
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                          I have forwarded your message to another researcher from the Isle of Bute
                                          (she also grew up there and might be able to help with the place name) Her
                                          Robertsons ancestors were McConnachie at one time and then changed to
                                          Robertson)
                                          In my own experience here in Perthshire, the Gaelic form of a name died
                                          out towards the middle of the 19th century when Gaelic began to be frowned
                                          on.
                                          for instance, Patrick became Peter and McVurich became McPherson
                                          Kay


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        • IACSCOTT@aol.com
                                          At the present time I am slowly working my way through the OPR microfilm for Lismore, Argyllshire and apart from the interchange of surnames the names of
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 15, 2004
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                                            At the present time I am slowly working my way through the OPR microfilm for
                                            Lismore, Argyllshire and apart from the interchange of surnames the names of
                                            places can be found to take several different forms and it appears to be a
                                            case of who was maintaining the OPR at the time. The period I am referring to
                                            is around 1770/80 and Gaelic would be the native tongue.

                                            However, research has shown that McGheil and McGregor or McGrigor are
                                            interchangeable in Argyllshire as are McDonald and McKealliach or McKeallaigh.

                                            What has intrigued me about this is the fact that my first wife who died
                                            some years ago insisted, as did her brothers and sisters, that their name was
                                            MacGregor and their ancestry was in Lismore. I started to research my family
                                            history and that of hers as it is part of my sons family history and had hit a
                                            brick wall until I discovered that McGheil was interchangeable with McGrigor.

                                            Having purchased the Lismore OPR film from NRH I now see that her ancestors
                                            births were recorded consistently as McGheil or McGrigor rather than
                                            MacGregor.

                                            Ian A C Scott


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