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Ruling on Bethancourt ?

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  • wenat501
    Will we be able to load Bethancourt as a RP into weekly pitching lineup while keeping him on bench as a C ? If there has been a note from the Scoresheet front
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 19, 2017

      Will we be able to load Bethancourt as a RP into weekly pitching lineup while keeping him on bench

      as a C ? If there has been a note from the Scoresheet  front office on this I missed it. The experiment

      seems to be gaining momentum in San Diego.

    • Jeff Barton
      Programmer Dave is looking into that, and we hope to have a definitive answer in a couple of days. However, I doubt we can have Bethancourt act as both a
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 20, 2017
        Programmer Dave is looking into that, and we hope to have a definitive answer in a couple of days.  However, I doubt we can have Bethancourt act as both a pitcher and a catcher (for this season anyhow) as I (as a non-programmer) am guessing that will take uite a bit of programming change.  So for now I would guess that you should not count on being able to use him as a pitcher in 2017.  But a more definite answer is hopefully forthcoming in a couple of days.  - Jeff


        On 3/19/17 5:36 PM, jmjwombat@... [scoresheet-talk] wrote:
         

        Will we be able to load Bethancourt as a RP into weekly pitching lineup while keeping him on bench

        as a C ? If there has been a note from the Scoresheet  front office on this I missed it. The experiment

        seems to be gaining momentum in San Diego.


        -- 
        Scoresheet Sports - offering the best in fantasy games
        PO Box 1097
        Grass Valley, CA 95945
        530-470-1880
      • garthhewitt
        This sounds like a much bigger issue than Bethancourt. If a backend RP can hit and catch, then a SP should be able to PH. Friends of the Court brief already
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 20, 2017

          This sounds like a much bigger issue than Bethancourt.  If a backend RP can hit and catch, then a SP should be able to PH.  Friends of the Court brief already submitted by the Committee to Let MadBum hit.

          If a programmer tells me this requires a big change best not attempted so close to the season, I believe.
        • wenat501
          Thanks for the response. What would be possibility of giving Bethancourt his own pitching # ? I realize this could set up unrealistic scenario of him pitching
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 20, 2017

            Thanks for the response. What would be possibility of giving Bethancourt his own pitching # ?

            I realize this could set up unrealistic scenario of him pitching to himself. I don't envy the

            programming challenge and, quite likely, it will have minimal effect, maybe 10 pitching

            appearances. But there is also remote possibility Bethancourt finds his niche and

            the Padres let him learn on the job. On a better team it wouldn't be an issue.


          • Dave Barton
            I’m sorry, but having someone pitch and play a different position in Scoresheet (even in different games) isn’t something that can happen anytime soon, and
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 21, 2017
              I’m sorry, but having someone pitch and play a different position in Scoresheet (even in different games) isn’t something that can happen anytime soon, and certainly not for this season. There are probably hundreds of points in the code and data structures that assume that a player is one or the other. Also occasionally a position player pitches in the majors in garbage time, but you probably don’t want that player pitching for you ahead of Pitcher,AAA. Similar rare things are pitchers not batting 9th, pitchers switching between L and R handed, pitchers pinch hitting, etc. There is a lot of complicated lineup juggling, luck balancing, etc. code that just doesn’t allow for these very rare possibilities (plus there are definitely cases where you don’t want it to). And testing any such change would take about as long as programming it. I’m sorry, this just isn’t cost effective, and not something you’d all want to pay for in increased team fees in the future (and we definitely couldn’t get it done for this year). I am sorry to be the bearer of this bad news.

              So Betancourt will definitely only be a catcher in Scoresheet in 2017, not a pitcher.

              Play Ball, Dave Barton

              On Mar 20, 2017, at 6:56 AM, Jeff Barton <jeff@...> wrote:

              Programmer Dave is looking into that, and we hope to have a definitive answer in a couple of days.  However, I doubt we can have Bethancourt act as both a pitcher and a catcher (for this season anyhow) as I (as a non-programmer) am guessing that will take uite a bit of programming change.  So for now I would guess that you should not count on being able to use him as a pitcher in 2017.  But a more definite answer is hopefully forthcoming in a couple of days.  - Jeff


              On 3/19/17 5:36 PM, jmjwombat@... [scoresheet-talk] wrote:

              Will we be able to load Bethancourt as a RP into weekly pitching lineup while keeping him on bench

              as a C ? If there has been a note from the Scoresheet  front office on this I missed it. The experiment

              seems to be gaining momentum in San Diego. 


              -- 
              Scoresheet Sports - offering the best in fantasy games
              PO Box 1097
              Grass Valley, CA 95945
              530-470-1880

            • Wayne Stonehouse
              It’s not like we don’t have another 240ish other relievers to choose from. This certainly should not effect anyone’s enjoyment in Scoresheet baseball.
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 21, 2017

                It’s not like we don’t have another 240ish other relievers to choose from. This certainly should not effect anyone’s enjoyment in Scoresheet baseball.

                 

                Thanks for all your good work, Dave

                 

                From: scoresheet-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scoresheet-talk@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: March 21, 2017 5:10 PM
                To: Scoresheet Talk <scoresheet-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: ## Ruling on Bethancourt ?

                 

                 

                I’m sorry, but having someone pitch and play a different position in Scoresheet (even in different games) isn’t something that can happen anytime soon, and certainly not for this season. There are probably hundreds of points in the code and data structures that assume that a player is one or the other. Also occasionally a position player pitches in the majors in garbage time, but you probably don’t want that player pitching for you ahead of Pitcher,AAA. Similar rare things are pitchers not batting 9th, pitchers switching between L and R handed, pitchers pinch hitting, etc. There is a lot of complicated lineup juggling, luck balancing, etc. code that just doesn’t allow for these very rare possibilities (plus there are definitely cases where you don’t want it to). And testing any such change would take about as long as programming it. I’m sorry, this just isn’t cost effective, and not something you’d all want to pay for in increased team fees in the future (and we definitely couldn’t get it done for this year). I am sorry to be the bearer of this bad news.

                 

                So Betancourt will definitely only be a catcher in Scoresheet in 2017, not a pitcher.

                 

                Play Ball, Dave Barton

                 

                On Mar 20, 2017, at 6:56 AM, Jeff Barton <jeff@...> wrote:

                 

                Programmer Dave is looking into that, and we hope to have a definitive answer in a couple of days.  However, I doubt we can have Bethancourt act as both a pitcher and a catcher (for this season anyhow) as I (as a non-programmer) am guessing that will take uite a bit of programming change.  So for now I would guess that you should not count on being able to use him as a pitcher in 2017.  But a more definite answer is hopefully forthcoming in a couple of days.  - Jeff


                On 3/19/17 5:36 PM, jmjwombat@... [scoresheet-talk] wrote:

                Will we be able to load Bethancourt as a RP into weekly pitching lineup while keeping him on bench

                as a C ? If there has been a note from the Scoresheet  front office on this I missed it. The experiment

                seems to be gaining momentum in San Diego. 



                -- 
                Scoresheet Sports - offering the best in fantasy games
                PO Box 1097
                Grass Valley, CA 95945
                530-470-1880

                 

              • lepton65
                Thanks for the detailed explanation, Dave. I appreciate the difficulties and can certainly understand why you re reluctant to take on such a major project
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 22, 2017
                  Thanks for the detailed explanation, Dave.  I appreciate the difficulties and can certainly understand why you're reluctant to take on such a major project when it will only affect a guy like Bethancourt, who is only marginally useful as a catcher and may not have much more value as a reliever.

                  That said ... Shohei Otani is coming.
                • wenat501
                  I want to echo the thanks to both Dave and Jeff for their detailed explanation and responsiveness. I agree having Bethancourt as C only makes the most sense
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 22, 2017

                    I want to echo the thanks to both Dave and Jeff for their detailed explanation

                    and responsiveness. I agree having Bethancourt as C only makes the most

                    sense for 2017. Assuming there are NPB sim and roto leagues in Japan I

                    wonder how they handle Otani. If there aren't similar leagues,  a new

                    potential market awaits Scoresheet.



                  • garthhewitt
                    Bethancourt managed to quickly calm the cries to use him as a pitcher. He s just not a big enough deal to require the massive changes in a short time. I hope
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 12, 2017
                      Bethancourt managed to quickly calm the cries to use him as a pitcher.  He's just not a big enough deal to require the massive changes in a short time.  I hope everyone agrees by now.

                      BUT, the Otani rumors have spiked this week.  His coming over this offseason has become absolutely plausible.  When he does, he will be the biggest story-line in baseball.  Scouts have comped him as highly as to Syndergaard PLUS expect him to hit enough to be a legit power-hitting MLB OF or DH.  Seems to me that Dave has to revamp the program to allow him to go two ways; maybe hope that's 3 years out but prepare for 2018.

                      I'm not a programmer, but just trying to describe the various algorithms makes me appreciate that it will be complicated.  Good luck Dave.
                    • Joseph Sherman
                      I wonder if it would be easier just to make Otani two players. ⁣Joseph​ ... I wonder if it would be easier just to make Otani two players. Joseph On
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 12, 2017
                        I wonder if it would be easier just to make Otani 'two' players.

                        Joseph
                        On Apr 12, 2017, at 3:53 PM, "garthhewitt@... [scoresheet-talk]" <scoresheet-talk@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        Bethancourt managed to quickly calm the cries to use him as a pitcher.  He's just not a big enough deal to require the massive changes in a short time.  I hope everyone agrees by now.

                        BUT, the Otani rumors have spiked this week.  His coming over this offseason has become absolutely plausible.  When he does, he will be the biggest story-line in baseball.  Scouts have comped him as highly as to Syndergaard PLUS expect him to hit enough to be a legit power-hitting MLB OF or DH.  Seems to me that Dave has to revamp the program to allow him to go two ways; maybe hope that's 3 years out but prepare for 2018.

                        I'm not a programmer, but just trying to describe the various algorithms makes me appreciate that it will be complicated.  Good luck Dave.
                      • ebbets_fielders
                        Hmmm. I think you ve nailed it. Just think about the guy with the first pick next season, do I take Otani the hitter, or Otani the pitcher? It makes it
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 12, 2017
                          Hmmm.  I think you've nailed it.  Just think about the guy with the first pick next season, do I take Otani the hitter, or Otani the pitcher?

                          It makes it unnecessary to make a major overhaul of the program. Now, if there are four or five more coming along, that's a different prospect, but do deal with this one, very unusual case, it's an easy fix.  Way to go Joe.
                        • evolutionorbust
                          If you just make him two players I don t see any way you don t end up with Otani pitching to Otani the batter, which is insane. If you put them on the same
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                            If you just make him two players I don't see any way you don't end up with Otani pitching to Otani the batter, which is insane. If you put them on the same team you'd end up with Otanis on the mound and in the OF at the same time, which is only marginally less insane.

                            I'm not sure people have even thought through exactly what they want to happen. Do you want to forfeit the DH in games he's the starting pitcher? Can he PH if you have him in the bullpen? Can he be a defensive replacement in the outfield? Does he continue to bat if he comes in as relief in a game he started in the field? Can he move from the mound to the field for a relief pitcher? Can he then move back?

                            I don't think everyone here is going to have the same answers for those questions. Add in the issue that we don't get to actually make these decisions in real time, and, well, I'm glad my last name isn't Barton.
                          • Jeff Barton
                            Agree fully with all of this. *Thanks*! My only quibble would be that I think there are even more issues then would have to be decided in paragraph 2, along
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                              Agree fully with all of this. *Thanks*! My only quibble would be that I
                              think there are even more issues then would have to be decided in
                              paragraph 2, along with all the code currently in the program now to
                              stop the same player from both pitching and hitting in Scoresheet.


                              On 4/13/17 9:26 AM, bhauck@... [scoresheet-talk] wrote:
                              > *If you just make him two players I don't see any way you don't end up
                              > with Otani pitching to Otani the batter, which is insane. If you put
                              > them on the same team you'd end up with Otanis on the mound and in the
                              > OF at the same time, which is only marginally less insane.*
                              >
                              > I'm not sure people have even thought through exactly what they want
                              > to happen. Do you want to forfeit the DH in games he's the starting
                              > pitcher? Can he PH if you have him in the bullpen? Can he be a
                              > defensive replacement in the outfield? Does he continue to bat if he
                              > comes in as relief in a game he started in the field? Can he move from
                              > the mound to the field for a relief pitcher? Can he then move back?
                              >
                              > I don't think everyone here is going to have the same answers for
                              > those questions.

                              --

                              Jeff Barton
                              Scoresheet Sports - offering the best in fantasy games
                              719 Zion St
                              Nevada City, CA 95959
                              530-470-1880
                              jeff@...
                              www.scoresheet.com <http://www.scoresheet.com>
                            • ebbets_fielders
                              As for the first paragraph ... we already have this in the year-end tournament with things such as Kershaw against Kershaw.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                                As for the first paragraph ... we already have this in the year-end tournament with things such as Kershaw against Kershaw.
                              • Jeff Barton
                                Yes, but that is a special situation that is two teams in different leagues playing each other. In the regular season do you want Otani facing Otani in the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                                  Yes, but that is a special situation that is two teams in different
                                  leagues playing each other. In the regular season do you want Otani
                                  facing Otani in the same game? Or having two spots in the lineup (one
                                  pitcher and one hitter) occupied by the same player?


                                  On 4/13/17 10:51 AM, jdmattheplate@... [scoresheet-talk] wrote:
                                  > As for the first paragraph ... we already have this in the year-end
                                  > tournament with things such as Kershaw against Kershaw.

                                  --

                                  Jeff Barton
                                  Scoresheet Sports - offering the best in fantasy games
                                  719 Zion St
                                  Nevada City, CA 95959
                                  530-470-1880
                                  jeff@...
                                  www.scoresheet.com <http://www.scoresheet.com>
                                • ebbets_fielders
                                  Ideally, no. But, if it s a choice between having two Otanis or no Scoresheet, I m with the former. I d guess it would be a huge revision of the program (as
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                                    Ideally, no. But, if it's a choice between having two Otanis or no Scoresheet, I'm with the former.  I'd guess it would be a huge revision of the program (as it would also have to factor in such things as allowing MadBum to pinch-hit, and Bethancourt to pitch). 
                                  • msvmsv
                                    I agree that two Otanis in the same game is unacceptable. Jeff, would it be possible with less extreme programming changes just to give the same team two
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 13, 2017
                                      I agree that two Otanis in the same game is unacceptable. Jeff, would it be possible with less extreme programming changes just to give the same team two Otanis, but then only allow them to use one each week? Or maybe easier -- you can draft either one at the beginning of the year, and then the other becomes undraftable? At least that way, the player gets to decide whether to have Otani the pitcher or Otani the hitter.
                                    • han60man
                                      How about an implementation where you can list Otani the two-way player on your lineup card in 2 places; P and lineup. If he starts a game as SP, he is removed
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 14, 2017
                                        How about an implementation where you can list Otani the two-way player on your lineup card in 2 places; P and lineup. If he starts a game as SP, he is removed from your batting card. If he does *not* start the game as an SP, he is removed from your pitching card, and plays that day as a hitter.

                                        Yes, so sorry, it reduces your eligible # of players on your card to 29.

                                        This would preclude bullpen use for him.
                                         
                                      • soxknation
                                        Why?.... which is why nobody should do ir.
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Apr 15, 2017
                                          Why?.... which is why nobody should do ir.
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