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Re: Three laws

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  • Gary Privitt
    So...basically, if the guvmint don t get ya , everything else will. OK. I feel much better now. LOL. Thanks, ya ll! Granpa G ... Can
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 16 6:40 AM
      So...basically, if the guvmint don't get ya', everything else will.
      OK. I feel much better now. LOL. Thanks, ya'll!

      Granpa G



      --- In sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com, wolffwizard
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > > "Gary Privitt" <grandaddy_g@> wrote:
      > >
      > > A few years ago, I read a really good short story in which 3
      > robots
      > > approached Asimov on this very issue. One wanted to be a surgeon,
      > but
      > > couldn't operate on humans because of the restiction in the Laws.
      > > And, for the life of me, I cannot remember the title, author, or
      > in
      > > what collection I read it (insert favorite old age joke here,
      > > please). I know I have it somewhere in my collection of books.
      Can
      > > anyone help out an old SF veteran, guys?
      > >
      > > Granpa G (it's not old age, it's something in the water)
      > >
      > >
      >
      > ............*
      >
      > No, the water turns you gay, the silicon implants turn you
      > indesolvable and the food preserves you for the next Epoch>>
      > so-called margarine, twinkies, pizza, the only thing
      > going bad on my is my eyesight.
      >
      > yeah, I had that problem with old friend who gave me three
      > boxes of 60's Scifi, some was good but I remember the
      > stories and not the names of the stories or the authors,
      > makes for a hard time explaining the concept when I have forgotten
      > most of the story line.
      > You would be amazed how many times I have run across the
      > word-contraption ansible in stories.
      >
      > Wolfwiz
      > >>...........*
      >
    • Mike French
      No, there are as you say some tasks to which a robot could not be put; but as for not being able to be used in law enforcement? R. Daneel Olivaw seems to do a
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 19 2:54 AM
        No, there are as you say some tasks to which a robot could not be put; but
        as for not being able to be used in law enforcement? R. Daneel Olivaw seems
        to do a good job in Caves of Steel; see him facing off the riot in the shoe
        store.

        And why not in the fire department? I would say a positronic brain obeying
        the Three Laws in a fireproof chassis would be absolutely perfect for the
        job. I suppose it might be a bit over-zealous, but the Law tells a robot to
        prevent harm, not the risk of harm. There wouldn't be too much trouble with
        it dashing off into the woods to stop boy scouts toasting marshmallows.

        As for the medical institutions, you have a better point; but I seem to
        recall Dr Calvin making various experiments with the programming overlaying
        the Laws so that a robot can distinguish between degrees of harm. Facing off
        the riot required R Daneel to scare a number of humans - so to harm them -
        but to rationalise that by saying that to allow them to riot would
        inevitably cause worse harm to themselves and other humans in the area. So
        the lesser harm was necessary to prevent the greater. Plus of course there
        are other more-or-less sophistical ways of getting round the point, e.g.
        that the humans had in fact agreed to live in a law-abiding society so that
        nothing done to them in the name of upholding the law could be construed as
        harm. Now that's a scary one.

        Anyway, if you want to see what happens when you let robots off the leash
        with badly constructed Three Laws, have a look at Watchbird by Robert
        Sheckley.

        Mike
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wolffwizard
        > Sent: 13 July 2008 20:47
        > To: sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [SFC] Three laws
        >
        >
        >
        > hello All,
        >
        > I found some flaws, loopholes in the Robotic laws.
        >
        > Due to the sematics of the Three laws Robots would not
        > be usable by Law enforcement, Fire department, or medical
        > institutions.
        >
        > If I had gangreen, to amputate may be viewed by a robot as
        > harm even though it was directed by a doctor to do so.
        > or to admissister an abortion or euthanasia for a suffering
        > patient> continued suffering is harm, though the subtles
        > of such HUman morals would confound the simpler programming of
        > a robot.
        >
        > There is also the idea of putting down> of a prisoner to maintain
        > order in a prison or to make example to the irrational biological
        > bipeds of the incarceration institution.
        >
        > Many times humans are put in places of harming the greater number
        > of huamns for the sake of order or some higher ideas than
        > socialistic wellbeing.
        >
        > Bombing a bunker with 50 men in it to protect a platoon of
        > five men of the friendly forces, eg.
        >
        > Wolfwizard
        > .......*
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • raybell_scot
        You make some good points, wolfwizard. Harm is also a relative term. Psychiatric treatment can be viewed as harmful by the patient and helpful by the
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 7, 2008
          You make some good points, wolfwizard. "Harm" is also a relative term.
          Psychiatric treatment can be viewed as harmful by the patient and
          helpful by the psychiatrist, for example. I know a schizophrenic
          "shaman" who is always going on about this.

          "Bombing a bunker with 50 men in it to protect a platoon of five men
          of the friendly forces"

          You inadvertantly make another point here about the armed forces and
          police. Due to their nature, and that of governments, much of what
          they would do, would be harmful. Governments, police forces and armed
          forces lie, and have dubious motives all the time. And I'm not just
          talking about the places we think of as dictatorships such as Mainland
          China.

          --- In sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com, wolffwizard
          <no_reply@...> wrote:
          > I found some flaws, loopholes in the Robotic laws.
          >
          > Due to the sematics of the Three laws Robots would not
          > be usable by Law enforcement, Fire department, or medical
          > institutions.
          >
          > If I had gangreen, to amputate may be viewed by a robot as
          > harm even though it was directed by a doctor to do so.
          > or to admissister an abortion or euthanasia for a suffering
          > patient> continued suffering is harm, though the subtles
          > of such HUman morals would confound the simpler programming of
          > a robot.
          >
          > There is also the idea of putting down> of a prisoner to maintain
          > order in a prison or to make example to the irrational biological
          > bipeds of the incarceration institution.
          >
          > Many times humans are put in places of harming the greater number
          > of huamns for the sake of order or some higher ideas than
          > socialistic wellbeing.
          >
          > Bombing a bunker with 50 men in it to protect a platoon of
          > five men of the friendly forces, eg.
          >
          > Wolfwizard
          > .......*
          >
        • wolffwizard
          Thqnk you Raybell Wolffie 00000* * ... term. ... men ... and ... armed ... Mainland ... maintain ... number
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 1, 2008
            Thqnk you Raybell

            Wolffie
            00000*>*
            "raybell_scot" <raybell_scot@...> wrote:
            >
            > You make some good points, wolfwizard. "Harm" is also a relative
            term.
            > Psychiatric treatment can be viewed as harmful by the patient and
            > helpful by the psychiatrist, for example. I know a schizophrenic
            > "shaman" who is always going on about this.
            >
            > "Bombing a bunker with 50 men in it to protect a platoon of five
            men
            > of the friendly forces"
            >
            > You inadvertantly make another point here about the armed forces
            and
            > police. Due to their nature, and that of governments, much of what
            > they would do, would be harmful. Governments, police forces and
            armed
            > forces lie, and have dubious motives all the time. And I'm not just
            > talking about the places we think of as dictatorships such as
            Mainland
            > China.
            >
            > --- In sciencefictionclassics@yahoogroups.com, wolffwizard
            > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > I found some flaws, loopholes in the Robotic laws.
            > >
            > > Due to the sematics of the Three laws Robots would not
            > > be usable by Law enforcement, Fire department, or medical
            > > institutions.
            > >
            > > If I had gangreen, to amputate may be viewed by a robot as
            > > harm even though it was directed by a doctor to do so.
            > > or to admissister an abortion or euthanasia for a suffering
            > > patient> continued suffering is harm, though the subtles
            > > of such HUman morals would confound the simpler programming of
            > > a robot.
            > >
            > > There is also the idea of putting down> of a prisoner to
            maintain
            > > order in a prison or to make example to the irrational biological
            > > bipeds of the incarceration institution.
            > >
            > > Many times humans are put in places of harming the greater
            number
            > > of huamns for the sake of order or some higher ideas than
            > > socialistic wellbeing.
            > >
            > > Bombing a bunker with 50 men in it to protect a platoon of
            > > five men of the friendly forces, eg.
            > >
            > > Wolfwizard
            > > .......*
            > >
            >
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