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Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War

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  • Bill Ramsay
    I confess, I hadn t heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 1, 2012
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      I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
       
      And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
       
      Bill

      --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

       
      I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 

      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
       
      I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
       
      But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
       
      If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
       
      However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
       
      And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
       
      These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
       
      Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

       
      Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
       
      I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
       
      Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

       
      Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
       
      Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
       
      Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

       
      Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
      From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
      Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
       
      "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
    • Bill Ramsay
      And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 1, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
         
        Bill

        --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

         
        I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
         
        And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
         
        Bill

        --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

         
        I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 

        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
         
        I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
         
        But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
         
        If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
         
        However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
         
        And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
         
        These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
         
        Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

         
        Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
         
        I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
         
        Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

         
        Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
         
        Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
         
        Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

         
        Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
        From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
        Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
         
        "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
      • Warren Malach
        I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French conservatives to consider their country cursed and unworthy of
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.

          From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
           
          And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
           
          Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

          From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

           
          I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
           
          And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
           
          Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

          From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
          To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

           
          I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
          From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
           
          I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
           
          But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
           
          If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
           
          However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
           
          And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
           
          These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
           
          Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

          From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
          To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

           
          Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
          From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
           
          I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
           
          Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

          From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
          To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

           
          Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
          From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
           
          Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
           
          Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

          From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
          Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
          To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

           
          Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
          From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
          To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
          Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
           
          "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
        • Bill Ramsay
          Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven t heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
             
            And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
             
            Bill

            --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

            From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

             
            I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.

            From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
             
            And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
             
            Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

            From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

             
            I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
             
            And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
             
            Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

            From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

             
            I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
            From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
             
            I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
             
            But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
             
            If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
             
            However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
             
            And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
             
            These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
             
            Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

            From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

             
            Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
            From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
             
            I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
             
            Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

            From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

             
            Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
            From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
             
            Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
             
            Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

            From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
            Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
            To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

             
            Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
            From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
            Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
             
            "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
          • Bill Ramsay
            Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 2, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
               
              If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
               
              So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
               
              Bill

              --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

               
              Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
               
              And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
               
              Bill

              --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

              From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

               
              I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.

              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
               
              And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
               
              Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

               
              I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
               
              And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
               
              Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

              From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

               
              I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
               
              I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
               
              But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
               
              If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
               
              However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
               
              And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
               
              These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
               
              Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

              From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

               
              Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
               
              I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
               
              Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

              From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

               
              Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
              From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
               
              Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
               
              Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

              From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
              Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
              To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

               
              Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
              From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
              To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
              Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
               
              "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
            • Warren Malach
              Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 2, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with the king if they wanted any "goodies."  This helped to "centralize" France under the monarchy by reducing the power of the aristocracy, who had nothing better to do than stand around and watch the king get dressed and, if the stories are correct, go to the bathroom.

                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 8:50 AM
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
                 
                If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
                 
                So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
                 
                Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

                 
                Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
                 
                And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
                 
                Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

                 
                I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.
                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
                 
                Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

                 
                I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
                 
                And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
                 
                Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

                 
                I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
                 
                But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
                 
                If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
                 
                However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
                 
                And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
                 
                These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
                 
                Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

                 
                Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
                 
                Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

                 
                Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
                From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
                 
                Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

                 
                Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
                From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
                Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                 
                "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
              • Bill Ramsay
                One interesting thing is, it appears the Shogunate of Japan, after their roughly AD 1600 victory, required their nobility to do much the same. I think the
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  One interesting thing is, it appears the Shogunate of Japan, after their roughly AD 1600 victory, required their nobility to do much the same. I think the daimyo, great nobles, had to spend 1/2 their year in Edo / Tokyo, and the other half, when not in Tokyo, had to leave behind hostages (a.k.a. Roman practice) to ensure "good behavior".
                   
                  Bill
                   
                  And yes, "go to the bathroom" - basically, "make them useless" - hadn't heard that one, either. But I"ve seen words claiming that the state of the King's (e.g. Louis XIV) digestion was common knowledge throughout Europe.
                   
                  Gee! Seems like today! Given all the info out there these days, anybody who wants to "play secret police agent" has all the necessary material to do same! Yes, I confess, snide remark, but true, isn't it?

                  --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 7:22 PM

                   
                  Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with the king if they wanted any "goodies."  This helped to "centralize" France under the monarchy by reducing the power of the aristocracy, who had nothing better to do than stand around and watch the king get dressed and, if the stories are correct, go to the bathroom.

                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 8:50 AM
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
                   
                  If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
                   
                  So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
                   
                  Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

                   
                  Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
                   
                  And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
                   
                  Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

                   
                  I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.
                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
                   
                  Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

                   
                  I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
                   
                  And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
                   
                  Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

                   
                  I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
                   
                  But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
                   
                  If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
                   
                  However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
                   
                  And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
                   
                  These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
                   
                  Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

                   
                  Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
                   
                  Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

                   
                  Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
                  From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
                   
                  Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                  From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                  Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                  To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

                   
                  Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
                  From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
                  To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
                  Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                   
                  "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
                • Warren Malach
                  I believe that Napoleon also said something similar to Louis XIV s L etat, c est moi!   ________________________________ From: Bill Ramsay
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I believe that Napoleon also said something similar to Louis XIV's "L'etat, c'est moi!" 

                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 5:58 PM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    One interesting thing is, it appears the Shogunate of Japan, after their roughly AD 1600 victory, required their nobility to do much the same. I think the daimyo, great nobles, had to spend 1/2 their year in Edo / Tokyo, and the other half, when not in Tokyo, had to leave behind hostages (a.k.a. Roman practice) to ensure "good behavior".
                     
                    Bill
                     
                    And yes, "go to the bathroom" - basically, "make them useless" - hadn't heard that one, either. But I"ve seen words claiming that the state of the King's (e.g. Louis XIV) digestion was common knowledge throughout Europe.
                     
                    Gee! Seems like today! Given all the info out there these days, anybody who wants to "play secret police agent" has all the necessary material to do same! Yes, I confess, snide remark, but true, isn't it? --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 7:22 PM

                     
                    Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with the king if they wanted any "goodies."  This helped to "centralize" France under the monarchy by reducing the power of the aristocracy, who had nothing better to do than stand around and watch the king get dressed and, if the stories are correct, go to the bathroom.
                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 8:50 AM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
                     
                    If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
                     
                    So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
                     
                    Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

                     
                    Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
                     
                    And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
                     
                    Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

                     
                    I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.
                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
                     
                    Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

                     
                    I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
                     
                    And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
                     
                    Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

                     
                    I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
                     
                    But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
                     
                    If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
                     
                    However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
                     
                    And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
                     
                    These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
                     
                    Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

                     
                    Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
                     
                    Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

                     
                    Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
                    From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
                     
                    Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                    From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                    Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                    To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

                     
                    Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
                    From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
                    To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
                    Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                     
                    "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
                  • Bill Ramsay
                    I hadn t heard that Napoleon I had said something like that. Given that he was basically the Master Military Prosetelyte (e.g. Prophet For ) Fraternite,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 3, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I hadn't heard that Napoleon I had said something like that. Given that he was basically the "Master Military Prosetelyte" (e.g. "Prophet For") Fraternite, Liberte, Egalite, if you have a source for that quote, I'm much interested.
                       
                      I have to still boggle at, marvel at, one of History's most classic phrases, "Apre moi, le Deluge". That was (if my memory is correct) said by Louis XV, knowing that the (what we call today, in 2012) "Falling Off the Cliff" was looming, "I don't give a < bleep > !"
                       
                      Sounds like a lot of those who literally "lost their heads", had it coming. I just am thinking of all the poor, unenfranchised people who suffered grievously due to their (French rich class) misconduct. Was that situation not one which cried to Heaven for redress??
                       
                      Bill

                      --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 9:52 PM

                       
                      I believe that Napoleon also said something similar to Louis XIV's "L'etat, c'est moi!" 

                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 5:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      One interesting thing is, it appears the Shogunate of Japan, after their roughly AD 1600 victory, required their nobility to do much the same. I think the daimyo, great nobles, had to spend 1/2 their year in Edo / Tokyo, and the other half, when not in Tokyo, had to leave behind hostages (a.k.a. Roman practice) to ensure "good behavior".
                       
                      Bill
                       
                      And yes, "go to the bathroom" - basically, "make them useless" - hadn't heard that one, either. But I"ve seen words claiming that the state of the King's (e.g. Louis XIV) digestion was common knowledge throughout Europe.
                       
                      Gee! Seems like today! Given all the info out there these days, anybody who wants to "play secret police agent" has all the necessary material to do same! Yes, I confess, snide remark, but true, isn't it? --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 7:22 PM

                       
                      Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with the king if they wanted any "goodies."  This helped to "centralize" France under the monarchy by reducing the power of the aristocracy, who had nothing better to do than stand around and watch the king get dressed and, if the stories are correct, go to the bathroom.
                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 8:50 AM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
                       
                      If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
                       
                      So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
                       
                      Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

                       
                      Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
                       
                      And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
                       
                      Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

                       
                      I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.
                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
                       
                      Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

                       
                      I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
                       
                      And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
                       
                      Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

                       
                      I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
                       
                      But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
                       
                      If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
                       
                      However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
                       
                      And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
                       
                      These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
                       
                      Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

                       
                      Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
                       
                      Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

                       
                      Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
                      From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
                       
                      Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                      From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                      Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                      To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

                       
                      Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
                      From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
                      To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
                      Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                       
                      "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
                    • Warren Malach
                      Although no citation is given in Wikipedia, in a speech to the French Senate in 1814, Napoleon is supposed to have said What is a throne?  A bit of wood
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 3, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Although no citation is given in Wikipedia, in a speech to the French Senate in 1814, Napoleon is supposed to have said" "What is a throne?  A bit of wood gilded and covered with velvet.  I am the state.  I alone am here the representative of the people..."  A temptation for every head of state to think, much less to say!

                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 6:02 AM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        I hadn't heard that Napoleon I had said something like that. Given that he was basically the "Master Military Prosetelyte" (e.g. "Prophet For") Fraternite, Liberte, Egalite, if you have a source for that quote, I'm much interested.
                         
                        I have to still boggle at, marvel at, one of History's most classic phrases, "Apre moi, le Deluge". That was (if my memory is correct) said by Louis XV, knowing that the (what we call today, in 2012) "Falling Off the Cliff" was looming, "I don't give a < bleep > !"
                         
                        Sounds like a lot of those who literally "lost their heads", had it coming. I just am thinking of all the poor, unenfranchised people who suffered grievously due to their (French rich class) misconduct. Was that situation not one which cried to Heaven for redress??
                         
                        Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 9:52 PM

                         
                        I believe that Napoleon also said something similar to Louis XIV's "L'etat, c'est moi!" 
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 5:58 PM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        One interesting thing is, it appears the Shogunate of Japan, after their roughly AD 1600 victory, required their nobility to do much the same. I think the daimyo, great nobles, had to spend 1/2 their year in Edo / Tokyo, and the other half, when not in Tokyo, had to leave behind hostages (a.k.a. Roman practice) to ensure "good behavior".
                         
                        Bill
                         
                        And yes, "go to the bathroom" - basically, "make them useless" - hadn't heard that one, either. But I"ve seen words claiming that the state of the King's (e.g. Louis XIV) digestion was common knowledge throughout Europe.
                         
                        Gee! Seems like today! Given all the info out there these days, anybody who wants to "play secret police agent" has all the necessary material to do same! Yes, I confess, snide remark, but true, isn't it? --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 7:22 PM

                         
                        Versailles was a way to keep the aristocracy where Louis XIV could watch them, after the experience of the Fronde uprising, requiring them to be at court with the king if they wanted any "goodies."  This helped to "centralize" France under the monarchy by reducing the power of the aristocracy, who had nothing better to do than stand around and watch the king get dressed and, if the stories are correct, go to the bathroom.
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 8:50 AM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        Refocusing on the Brit experience in the 17th Century, the Brits could afford to avoid a strong centralized Executive since they were an island. A Continental country (be it France, Spain, Austria, Prussia, whatever) needed a strong Executive because armies had to be moved quickly, hither and thither and yon. The Brits could avoid, for the most part, the heavy expenditures of Army needs, and concentrate on their Navy. So thus, a strong legislature (Parliament) could be the "leading institution", where an oversized / over glorified committee COULD successfully function! And given it was based in the aristocracy of the day, who DID do functionally creative and useful deeds, such an arrangement prospered. These creative / useful deeds, surely they can be viewed as the roots of the latest Industrial Revolution, can they not?
                         
                        If one considers the French aristocracy during the same time (30 Years' War & Aftermath), were they not so fightingly fractious that the only way to "win the peace" there was massive bribery? I mean, having the French aristocracy around this super developed Versailles, was that not State Welfare on a massive scale? Louis XIV it would seem, developed this gilded "prison" so that their aristocracy wasn't so violent, and all the rest! Trouble was, of course, that this "rich peoples' welfare" could be sustained only so long. Like, until 1789!
                         
                        So something else to ponder. With again, relevance twixt then and today!
                         
                        Bill --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:38 AM

                         
                        Hmm. The chastisement. Another one I haven't heard specifically of, but overall, I also confess, no surprise. Action Francais - I think that was the name of the extremeist right wing French movement. Some super conservative folks politically, and those people also tended to be the most religious (@ least in the formal sense) of French society. A couple of classic Roman Catholic phrases occur supporting that point. "Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault". And "Pray, Pay, & Obey" - Pay through offerings and for sins, pray for guidance (which of course would be the extremely Conservative way), and Obey Authority (hopefully, in THEIR view) ROYAL Authority.
                         
                        And I stand corrected on one point. The French, it was longer than the 130 years I quoted yesterday. In my view, the French first "got it right" with the 5th Republic, started in 1958. "The Math" makes that 143 years of top level confusion and indecision!
                         
                        Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 1:06 PM

                         
                        I have read that the French Revolution and execution of the king caused some later French "conservatives" to consider their country cursed and unworthy of support, such that they did not defend the Third Republic and even welcomed the Nazis as a "chastisement" and the Vichy regime as a necessary "corrective" for the nation.
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:20 AM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        And I happened to think of another factor about that French assertion. The French basically for 130 years (1815 to 1945) were crippled by indecision. They couldn't make up their minds as to WHAT they wanted! In short, that deadly "gridlock" that produced WW1's "performance rage" (led to the totalitarian regimes of WW2) and it also "cost" France more than a century of delayed governmental modernization. "Performance gridlock" also played a HUGE part in the dooming of 18th Century Poland, enabling the 3 partitions which made that country disappear. And now we of the US today also have OUR governmental Performance Gridlock? May God Help Us! We seem unable to help ourselves!
                         
                        Bill --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:

                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:16 AM

                         
                        I confess, I hadn't heard THAT one before! About accepting Napoleon. Napoleon took the fruits of a lot of philosophical (from the Enlightenment) and military (especially in artillery, his specialty) and governmental revolutions, and used those technologial "edges" to expand French (and his) military power throughout that "ghetto" that was Europe at that time. Also, given that he put his siblings on the thrones of various countries, well, didn't the Mafia do that also? And he, as Corsican, was basically "scratch me and I'm Italian" - Corsica had into his parents' lifetime been a colony of Genoa, wasn't it?
                         
                        And at bottom Napoleon was a power grabbing opportunist whose popular base, in so many ways, was Populist. Deny The Ordinary People a voice through the ordinary political process, and they turn to (whom they perceive to be) protectors, who often are military despots. Seems to have happened a great deal in the 1st Century BC - Sulla, Marius, Pompey the Great, Julius Caesar, Antony, and ultimately Octavian / Augustus. We of the USA in the 1960's / early 1970's were lucky that we didn't get into that same cycle of civil wars. So many of our National Guard, our part time soldiers, so to speak, might have been mobilized to fight anti-war demonstrations, but so many people in those ranks SYMPATHIZED with the protesters! Thankfully, they never "turned sides" as so often happened in the Roman Civil Wars of that 1st Century BC! Once I was told "Bill, you don't know how lucky you are!" Well, I think we Americans have "dodged more bullets" than we're aware of!
                         
                        Bill --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 1:37 PM

                         
                        I certainly hope that the US can "profit by the example" of French history, even if our current leaders seem to be "hell-bent' on making the US into a "European-style socialist state."  And even with regards to Vichy, I don't want to deny that Americans might have reacted to an invasion and occupation of their country in a similar manner of appeasement.  I just get disgusted when I hear the French say that if only Europe had accepted Napoleon, Europe would have had a "United States of Europe" long before now.  This is just pure French chauvinism, because THEY wanted to rule Europe, NOT facilitate a "United States of Europe." 
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:31 AM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        I'm focusing on the French history angle of things in this posting. French history ugly? There surely was a whole lot of ugliness there. No question. Including some appalling hypocrisy by the ordinary French.
                         
                        But I also confess, I've done so much historical reading that it's far beyond the saturation point. So thus, I'll see parallels in events / happenings hundreds of years apart. That's an as a for instance. And @ least for us in the US, our own history could be as ugly as this French history has been described. I wrote decades ago (late 1988) a letter called "The Year of '89". I had it published anonymously (I feared retaliation against my employment, etc). I read it aloud this past 25 October or so @ our local writers' club, an event called "Open Microphone". My audience reacted, "good reading for Halloween!" They deemed it that scary!!!! That frightening!!!!!
                         
                        If there is interest here, or in the Thermidor group (dealing with French history), I can republish it. I don't want to "spam" either group, nor be "off topic".
                         
                        However, I WILL mention a couple of points. First, the "flash point" of the 1789 French Revolution is/was National Bankruptcy. Sound like a familiar present topic? Another point is, France fell in 1940 thanks to an "end process" of national burnout. This burnout was the specific factor which forced our English speaking armies (e.g. US, Brits, Canadians) to undergo the terrible dangers of the 1944 Normandy landings. And our troops, once landed, faced far greater dangers than I think most Western historians realize. A look at German divisional deployments of June/July 1944 is far too painful an examination (our troops were tied up in the bocage country, facing a mere 5% to 6% of German land forces!!) for comfort. The "doing the math" is VERY humbling!
                         
                        And the French defeat in 1940, basically adrenaline burnout, the French were so dispirited that their National Assembly voted itself out of existence! 10 July 1940! Can any of us imagine Parliament, or the US Congress, voting ITSELF out of existence????
                         
                        These are some very stark issues facing the US in these immediate future years, and it would seem, for Europe, surely there's growing public weariness over the tussles with the euro! Surely many people there are asking, "is this arrangement worth it?"
                         
                        Bill --- On Thu, 8/30/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

                         
                        Apart from the 100 Years War, I am not aware of the British trying to conquer their neighbors, but the French have tried several times, until the Germans "took over" that practice in 1870.  Then there's the enormity of the French Revolution, the first "social revolution."  Then there's the ugly period of "Vichy."  No, I don't find French history inspiring! 
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:55 PM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        I confess - I'm not sure what sort of "phile" I might be. I certainly have valued our ties w/the Brits (I'm US) and I'm very proud of my German heritage. And I deeply think that the French have for so long mis-managed their nation state. But I also know that I shouldn't be unquestioningly pro-Brit. A number of reasons for there of "why", but let's leave things at that for now. For just one point, let's just say, what if we both were German taxpayers, or French, or something like that. We as patriotic French, or German, or whatever, we would feel our nation should have a "strategic reach". It's one necessary burden of the power needed for security, among other things. As such taxpayers, the last thing we'd be prepared to accept is "oh! It's right for the Brits to rule the waves, unquestioned!"
                         
                        Bill --- On Wed, 8/29/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 10:21 PM

                         
                        Permit me to make a confession: I am NOT a Francophile, I am an Anglophile.  Also to some extent a Germanophile, but not a Francophile.  I find very little of French history admirable. 
                        From: Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:36 PM
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        Thermidor is the name of the group examining French history. Yes, Thermidor is one of the 12 or 13 months of the French Revolutionaries' calendar. The month is used as the name for the French history group.
                         
                        Bill --- On Tue, 8/28/12, Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...> wrote:

                        From: Warren Malach <warrenmalach@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                        To: "sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com" <sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 12:20 PM

                         
                        Who is "Thermidor"?  Wouldn't they be discussing the French Revolution? 
                        From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
                        To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:59 AM
                        Subject: [sceptredisle] The Thirty Years' War
                         
                        "Thermidor" is already trying to discuss this issue - Utrecht, Blenheim and the first Churchill.
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