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Re: [sceptredisle] The Domesday Book and Norman England (1066-1154)

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  • Michael Mccarthy
    Quite understand that. But 20 years after the conquest, King
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2009
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      <<Much of that organization was tacked on to what was already organized -- by the English>>
       
      Quite understand that.  But 20 years after the conquest, King William is able to send trusted men to EVERY manor in the country and do a census.  One reads a lot of stuff about the attitudes of the English towards the Normans.  I think it was a major acheivement that shows a VERY high level of adminstrative control over the entire country.
       
      Mike McCarthy
    • Anne Gilbert
      MIchael: I m not discounting the administrative control you re talking about. But King William was using English institutions already in place -- for his
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2009
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        MIchael:
         
        I'm not discounting the "administrative control" you're talking about.  But King William was using English institutions already in place -- for his own purposes, of course -- to achieve that control.  I'm not sure that the Domesday project would have had quite the impact it had, unless these structures had been there in the first  place.
        Anne G

         

        <<Much of that organization was tacked on to what was already organized -- by the English>>
         
        Quite understand that.  But 20 years after the conquest, King William is able to send trusted men to EVERY manor in the country and do a census.  One reads a lot of stuff about the attitudes of the English towards the Normans.  I think it was a major acheivement that shows a VERY high level of adminstrative control over the entire country.
         
        Mike McCarthy

      • stephenmlark
        Here goes.
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 10, 2010
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          Here goes.
        • Bill Ramsay
          Goodie! I ll get to learn a lot of that era now! ... From: stephenmlark Subject: [sceptredisle] The Domesday Book and Norman
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 10, 2010
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            Goodie! I'll get to learn a lot of that era now!


            --- On Thu, 6/10/10, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:

            From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
            Subject: [sceptredisle] The Domesday Book and Norman England (1066-1154)
            To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 9:11 AM

             

            Here goes.


          • Anne Gilbert
            Stephen and Bill: Hmmmm. . . . Where, then, can I start? Anne G Goodie! I ll get to learn a lot of that era now!
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 10, 2010
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              Stephen and Bill:
               
              Hmmmm. . . . Where, then, can I start?
              Anne G
               

               


              Goodie! I'll get to learn a lot of that era now!



               


            • Bill Ramsay
              Where to start? WELLLLLL Yeah! Yeah! I know! That s too DEEP a subject for my SHALLOW mind! LOL What s the Domesday Book say about Nottingham? I m just picking
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 10, 2010
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                Where to start? WELLLLLL

                Yeah! Yeah! I know! That's too DEEP a subject for my SHALLOW mind! LOL

                What's the Domesday Book say about Nottingham? I'm just picking a site out of the air. But supposedly there's that Sherwood Forest nearby. What's for real there?

                Again, if a choice is needed, I'll step in! LOL

                So, what say?

                Bill

                --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Anne Gilbert <avgilbert@...> wrote:

                From: Anne Gilbert <avgilbert@...>
                Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Domesday Book and Norman England (1066-1154)
                To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 3:02 PM

                 

                

                Stephen and Bill:
                 
                Hmmmm. . . . Where, then, can I start?
                Anne G
                 

                 


                Goodie! I'll get to learn a lot of that era now!



                 



              • Michael Mccarthy
                I do not have the Nottingham volume. Also many towns are NOT in Doomsday. Mike McCarthy
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 11, 2010
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                  I do not have the Nottingham volume.  Also many towns are NOT in Doomsday.
                  Mike McCarthy
                • Anne Gilbert
                  Bill: Where to start? WELLLLLL Yeah! Yeah! I know! That s too DEEP a subject for my SHALLOW mind! LOL What s the Domesday Book say about Nottingham? I m just
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 11, 2010
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                    Bill:
                     

                     

                    Where to start? WELLLLLL

                    Yeah! Yeah! I know! That's too DEEP a subject for my SHALLOW mind! LOL

                    What's the Domesday Book say about Nottingham? I'm just picking a site out of the air. But supposedly there's that Sherwood Forest nearby. What's for real there?

                    Again, if a choice is needed, I'll step in! LOL


                    I have a sort of response that is more or less relevant, but I haven't had time to send it yet. I've been in and out a lot.
                    Anne G
                  • Anne Gilbert
                    Mike: I do not have the Nottingham volume. Also many towns are NOT in Doomsday. There are a lot of jurisdictions that aren t in Domesday. London, for example.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 11, 2010
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                      Mike:
                       
                       

                       

                      I do not have the Nottingham volume.  Also many towns are NOT in Doomsday.
                       
                      There are a lot of jurisdictions that aren't in Domesday. London, for example. Don't ask why. Also, there were a lot of towns tand villages that were
                      simply not in existence in 1086, but came into existence later, for various reason. Also certain counties didn't exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was
                      one of them.
                      Anne G
                    • GeeGee
                      Hi Anne et al, ... Also certain counties didn t exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was one of them. Anne G Lancashire is an interesting case. Northern
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 12, 2010
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                        Hi Anne et al,

                        --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@...> wrote:

                        "Also certain counties didn't exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was one of them.
                        Anne G"

                        Lancashire is an interesting case. Northern Lancashire (above the River Ribble) was surveyed under Yorkshire as I recall, whilst Lancashire south of the Ribble, known as "Inter Ripam et Mersham" (between the Ribble and the Mersey) was counted amongst Cheshire.

                        The Ribble continued to be something of a boundary for many years after the creation of the County Palatine of Lancashire. I recall reading that the boundary between "northern" and "[north west] midlands" dialects of English was formerly marked by the river (this is now, for what it's worth, located just north of Lancaster). This is generally explained by the Ribble being the border between Mercia and Northumbria in the Anglo-Saxon period, though the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (in around 923 iirc) describes Manchester, near the Mersey, as being "in Northumbria." Also, Mersey comes from the same Old English root as Mercia, meaning essentially "boundary" (again, iirc).

                        Another county I understand was not surveyed was Cumberland, which (as I recall) was under Scottish jurisdiction at that period.

                        Kind regards,

                        Graham
                      • Anne Gilbert
                        Graham: Hi Anne et al, ... Also certain counties didn t exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was one of them. Anne G Lancashire is an interesting case.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 13, 2010
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                          Graham:

                           

                          Hi Anne et al,

                          --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@...> wrote:

                          "Also certain counties didn't exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was one of them.
                          Anne G"

                          Lancashire is an interesting case. Northern Lancashire (above the River Ribble) was surveyed under Yorkshire as I recall, whilst Lancashire south of the Ribble, known as "Inter Ripam et Mersham" (between the Ribble and the Mersey) was counted amongst Cheshire.

                          The Ribble continued to be something of a boundary for many years after the creation of the County Palatine of Lancashire. I recall reading that the boundary between "northern" and "[north west] midlands" dialects of English was formerly marked by the river (this is now, for what it's worth, located just north of Lancaster). This is generally explained by the Ribble being the border between Mercia and Northumbria in the Anglo-Saxon period, though the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (in around 923 iirc) describes Manchester, near the Mersey, as being "in Northumbria." Also, Mersey comes from the same Old English root as Mercia, meaning essentially "boundary" (again, iirc).

                          Another county I understand was not surveyed was Cumberland, which (as I recall) was under Scottish jurisdiction at that period.

                          Kind regards,

                          Graham

                           

                          I don't think they surveyed Northumbria, either.  They just kind of stopped at what was then "all Yorkshire", but which later became Lancashire, etc.

                          Anne G

                        • stephenmlark
                          ... That is because of the persistent rebellions in the far north - the Normans razed much of the area. Malcolm III, restored to his own throne by the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 14, 2010
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                            --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Graham:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Anne et al,
                            >
                            > --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@> wrote:
                            >
                            > "Also certain counties didn't exist at the time. I believe Lancashire was one of them.
                            > Anne G"
                            >
                            > Lancashire is an interesting case. Northern Lancashire (above the River Ribble) was surveyed under Yorkshire as I recall, whilst Lancashire south of the Ribble, known as "Inter Ripam et Mersham" (between the Ribble and the Mersey) was counted amongst Cheshire.
                            >
                            > The Ribble continued to be something of a boundary for many years after the creation of the County Palatine of Lancashire. I recall reading that the boundary between "northern" and "[north west] midlands" dialects of English was formerly marked by the river (this is now, for what it's worth, located just north of Lancaster). This is generally explained by the Ribble being the border between Mercia and Northumbria in the Anglo-Saxon period, though the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (in around 923 iirc) describes Manchester, near the Mersey, as being "in Northumbria." Also, Mersey comes from the same Old English root as Mercia, meaning essentially "boundary" (again, iirc).
                            >
                            > Another county I understand was not surveyed was Cumberland, which (as I recall) was under Scottish jurisdiction at that period.
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            >
                            > Graham
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I don't think they surveyed Northumbria, either. They just kind of stopped at what was then "all Yorkshire", but which later became Lancashire, etc.
                            >
                            > Anne G
                            >
                            That is because of the persistent rebellions in the far north - the Normans razed much of the area. Malcolm III, restored to his own throne by the Northumbrian Saxons and now married to a Saxon Princess, was associated with many of these rebellions.
                          • Richard
                            Snoting(e)ham/quin: King s land; Hugh Fitzbaldric; the Sheriff; Roger de Bully; William Peverel; Ralph de Buron; Wulfbert; Ralph FitzHubert; Geoffrey Alselin;
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 14, 2010
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                              "Snoting(e)ham/quin: King's land; Hugh Fitzbaldric; the Sheriff; Roger de Bully; William Peverel; Ralph de Buron; Wulfbert; Ralph FitzHubert; Geoffrey Alselin; Richard Frail. Church."

                              Some of the names are quite descriptive - I wonder if Hugh was known for his cunning plans, and whether Roger lived up to his name ?

                              Richard G

                              --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, Bill Ramsay <dollars_histry@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Where to start? WELLLLLL
                              >
                              > Yeah! Yeah! I know! That's too DEEP a subject for my SHALLOW mind! LOL
                              >
                              > What's the Domesday Book say about Nottingham? I'm just picking a site out of the air. But supposedly there's that Sherwood Forest nearby. What's for real there?
                              >
                              > Again, if a choice is needed, I'll step in! LOL
                              >
                              > So, what say?
                              >
                              > Bill
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Anne Gilbert <avgilbert@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Anne Gilbert <avgilbert@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [sceptredisle] The Domesday Book and Norman England (1066-1154)
                              > To: sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 3:02 PM
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
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                              > Stephen and Bill:
                              >  
                              > Hmmmm. . . . Where, then, can I start?
                              > Anne G
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > Goodie! I'll get to learn a lot of that era now!
                              >
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                              >  
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                            • Richard
                              Malcolm was certainly assisted in the overthrow of Macbeth and his taking of the Scottish crown by the Northumbrians, but whether that was really a restoration
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 14, 2010
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                                Malcolm was certainly assisted in the overthrow of Macbeth and his taking of the Scottish crown by the Northumbrians, but whether that was really a restoration or an usurpation is disputed; indeed whether Malcolm was a legitimate or illegitimate son of Duncan I is unclear.

                                Malcolm was killed at Alnwick in 1093 during one of his raids into England.

                                Richard G

                                --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "stephenmlark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > That is because of the persistent rebellions in the far north - the Normans razed much of the area. Malcolm III, restored to his own throne by the Northumbrian Saxons and now married to a Saxon Princess, was associated with many of these rebellions.
                                >
                              • Michael Mccarthy
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 14, 2010
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                                  <<"Snoting(e)ham/quin: King's land; Hugh Fitzbaldric; the Sheriff; Roger de
                                  Bully; William Peverel; Ralph de Buron; Wulfbert; Ralph FitzHubert; Geoffrey
                                  Alselin; Richard Frail. Church."

                                  Some of the names are quite descriptive - I wonder if Hugh was known for his
                                  cunning plans, and whether Roger lived up to his name ?>>

                                  "Fitzbaldric" ===> son of the sword (belt)

                                  Mike McCarthy
                                • Anne Gilbert
                                  Richard: Snoting(e)ham/quin: King s land; Hugh Fitzbaldric; the Sheriff; Roger de Bully; William Peverel; Ralph de Buron; Wulfbert; Ralph FitzHubert; Geoffrey
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                    Richard:

                                     

                                    "Snoting(e)ham/quin: King's land; Hugh Fitzbaldric; the Sheriff; Roger de Bully; William Peverel; Ralph de Buron; Wulfbert; Ralph FitzHubert; Geoffrey Alselin; Richard Frail. Church."

                                    Some of the names are quite descriptive - I wonder if Hugh was known for his cunning plans, and whether Roger lived up to his name ?

                                     

                                    I don't know, either,  but names like "Bully" were "toponymic" (e.g., he went by the same name as the place he came from).  In general, back then, and for both English and Normans, names were either "patronymic", e.g. sometihing on the order of "John Johnson", like Hugh fitzBaldric(e.g., his father was a Baldric), or frequently by occupation, usually people of a somewhat lower order, and most probably, largely in towns where there might be a lot of people called, say, Wulfric, so they could be distinguished by, say Wulfric the Baker v. Wulfric the Smith, or something like that, and some, for all classes, were really what we would now call nicknames, e.g. Edward the Short, or Roger the Tall, or something like that.  If you want some really interesting names, there are other parts of Domesday that have them.  You have to wonder how somebody like Humphrey Golden Balls ended up with his moniker.  Or another guy by the name of  Roger God-Save-the -Ladies.  Was this guy real "gallant", or was he just, uh, "touchy-feely"? We'll never know.

                                    Anne G

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                  • Anne Gilbert
                                    Stephen: That is because of the persistent rebellions in the far north - the Normans razed much of the area. Malcolm III, restored to his own throne by the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 15, 2010
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                                      Stephen:

                                       



                                      That is because of the persistent rebellions in the far north - the Normans razed much of the area. Malcolm III, restored to his own throne by the Northumbrian Saxons and now married to a Saxon Princess, was associated with many of these rebellions.

                                       

                                      All I know is, much of what was then called Yorkshire in Domesday, was listed as "waste"(e.g. completely uninhabited, or something like that. Now some historians argue that the "waste" the commissioners encounterd was some category they didn't understand, which is consistent with an argument , also that the Harrying of the North wasn't as "bad" as it was portrayed, almost from the beginning. While it's true that there is some "waste" land of this type in other parts of England, farther south, the fact that there was so much of it in the Yorkshire Domesday speak volumes -- if you know anything at all about the period and what happened during the Harrying of the North. I have a fictionalized account of this in the latest draft of my Great Medieval Science Fiction Masterpiece. And that's only one (fictional) place.

                                      Anne G

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