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nobles... primogeniture

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  • __ a n n e___
    .. anne.... we realize that, on the continent, noble titles are shared by all male progeny. In the days when titles were still be granted, we see, from
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 1 7:25 AM
      ..
      anne.... we realize that, on the continent, noble titles are 'shared' by all male progeny. In the days when titles were still be granted, we see, from sicily to scandanavia - - - from Portugal to the tsar's russia, that five sons of baron xxxxx would all bear the title 'baron xxxxx.' ALL sons of these five sons would also be 'baron xxxxx.' and so on and so forth.

      but it came about that this was NOT the case in britain. For the moment i'll ignore land inheritance and just focus on titles. my guess is taht britain once followed the continental practice and eventually developed the usage in which only the oldest son bore the noble titles while younger bairns bore 'courtesy titles.'

      when did the british practice develop ? Clearly, such a script did not come to be over night, but can we make out WHEN the paradigm began to emerge ? and what were the CIRCUMSTANCES that led to the british scenario.
    • Bill Barber
      An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where, in the twelfth century twenty-four families, representing eight
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 1 8:18 AM
        An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where, in the twelfth century twenty-four families, representing eight branches, of the Duke of Schönburg's family lived on the castle grounds. Must have been fun times for all.
      • Michael Mccarthy
        I have a suspicion that the difference was actually the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 1 11:00 AM
          <<such a script did not come to be over night, but can we make out WHEN the
          paradigm began to emerge >>

          I have a suspicion that the difference was actually the other way: The
          British system is the original and the other countries systems came later.
          In the Carolingian period when titles were "real" and a count actually ruled
          a "county" if you held the land, you held the title. The "continental"
          system could be a holdover from the Roman Empire but was not to the best of
          my knowledge true in the Carolingian period and Empire but must have
          appeared later when titles were less "real". Early English titles such as
          Earl held rule of large tracts of the country as did Carolingian counts or
          "pagus". That would put the appearance of the system sometime after
          1100-1200AD and more likely 1400-1500 AD
          Mike McCarthy
        • Michael Mccarthy
          Parts of Germany were different in that they followed partible inheritance. The actual county was divided among the counts sons. Mike McCarthy
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 1 11:08 AM
            Parts of Germany were different in that they followed partible inheritance.  The actual county was divided among the counts sons.
            Mike McCarthy
          • Anne Gilbert
            Bill: Sounds to me more like it was, uh, awfully crowded! Anne G An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 1 4:36 PM
              Bill:
               
              Sounds to me more like it was, uh, awfully crowded!
              Anne G
               

              An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where, in the twelfth century twenty-four families, representing eight branches, of the Duke of Schönburg's family lived on the castle grounds. Must have been fun times for all.

            • Anne Gilbert
              Michael; Partible inheritance only works when there are fairly large chunks of property to distribute. This must have been the case in early Germany,but it
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 1 4:42 PM
                Michael;
                 
                Partible inheritance only works when there are fairly large chunks of property to distribute. This must have been the case in early Germany,but it eventually seems to have devolved into lots of little "principalities" of various kinds. In England and other places there was "primogeniture" of the primary title(at least some time after 1066), but other sons -- if they lived long enough -- would often inherit something, though not the actual title.  And, in this early period, even eldest sons might not survive, or they might not have children. If only daughters survived, they might become quite important in the marriage market, and the kings had an interest in this, because they were considered heiresses, and somebody the king liked, could be invited to marry a woman who had thus "inherited" a property or title.  If she was a widow, whoever she subsequently married would acquire the lands of her deceased husband, too, if they hadn't had any children.
                Anne G

                Parts of Germany were different in that they followed partible inheritance.  The actual county was divided among the counts sons.
                Mike McCarthy

              • Stephen Lark
                ... If you carried on with this partitive system for a few hundred years, you would end up with a very large family of allotment-holders! Primogeniture sounds
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 2 1:00 AM
                  --- In sceptredisle@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bill:
                  >
                  > Sounds to me more like it was, uh, awfully crowded!
                  > Anne G
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where, in the twelfth century twenty-four families, representing eight branches, of the Duke of Schönburg's family lived on the castle grounds. Must have been fun times for all.
                  >
                  If you carried on with this partitive system for a few hundred years, you would end up with a very large family of allotment-holders!
                  Primogeniture sounds better - the drawback being that, for instance, the first Duke of Somerset left only a daughter and his brother took the title but less of the land.
                • Anne Gilbert
                  Stephen: Looking at it from a cultural/anthropological POV, there s nothing wrong with either partible or impartible inheritance rules. Each can work
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 2 1:49 PM
                    Stephen:
                     
                    Looking at it from a "cultural/anthropological" POV, there's nothing wrong with either partible or impartible inheritance rules.  Each can work reasonably well, but under differing circumstances.
                    Anne G
                     

                    --- In sceptredisle@ yahoogroups. com, "Anne Gilbert" <avgilbert@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bill:
                    >
                    > Sounds to me more like it was, uh, awfully crowded!
                    > Anne G
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > An interesting example of the continental system is found at Schönburg on the Rhine, where, in the twelfth century twenty-four families, representing eight branches, of the Duke of Schönburg's family lived on the castle grounds. Must have been fun times for all.
                    >
                    If you carried on with this partitive system for a few hundred years, you would end up with a very large family of allotment-holders!
                    Primogeniture sounds better - the drawback being that, for instance, the first Duke of Somerset left only a daughter and his brother took the title but less of the land.

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