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Re: [SCA Newcomers] device

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  • Alix deBohun
    make the black ermine (fur. Fur, metal and color are all contrasting :) Though I was under the impression that color on color meant a picture on a background
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 4, 2007
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      make the black "ermine" (fur. Fur, metal and color are all contrasting :)

      Though I was under the impression that color on color meant a picture on a background - ie a red rose on a blue background. not 2 colors as the background side by side..... maybe someone can clarify on that.


      Alix


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: archerpren <archerpren@...>
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:40:05 AM
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] device

      i want to get around a color rule for my device and need some
      suggestions for how to do this or if its even possible. i have posted
      three color ways of my device in the photos section. i want the one
      that has the white top with the red hearts. the herald in my area said
      that wouldnt pass because it was a color on a color (black and red
      stripes). I do know about the contrast rule but since it isnt really a
      color on another color it is a color next to a color and i think it is
      clear that they are stripes (i have seen many devices with the device
      split into two with the two sections being two colors. a color next to
      a color which is all stripes really are). i wanted the one with the
      black top but i can see why the hearts may not be clear from a great
      distance because they are a shape. i dnt know if i am making any
      sense. the white hearts one is my last choice. ok what does everyone
      think. is there a loophole some where that will let me have the red
      and black stripes? thanks! rosalie






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    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      ... Fraid not. Section 2 of Part VIII of the Rules for Submission ... Ermine is argent with sable ermine tails, so it s treated as a metal where contrast is
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 5, 2007
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        rosalie wrote:
        > the herald in my area said that wouldnt pass because it was a color on
        > a color (black and red stripes).

        Alix answered:
        > make the black "ermine" (fur. Fur, metal and color are all contrasting
        > :)

        'Fraid not.

        Section 2 of Part VIII of the Rules for Submission
        <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#8.2> states, in part:

        > . . .The colors are azure, gules, purpure, sable, and vert (blue, red,
        > purple, black, and green). Ermined furs or field treatments on a
        > background of one of these tinctures are treated as colors for
        > contrast in the Society. The metals are argent and Or (white or
        > silver, and yellow or gold). Ermined furs or field treatments on a
        > background of one of those tinctures are treated as metals for
        > contrast in the Society. Furs equally divided of light and dark
        > pieces, such as vair, are classed with other evenly divided elements,
        > such as paly, per bend, or lozengy.

        "Ermine" is argent with sable ermine tails, so it's treated as a metal
        where contrast is concerned. (It's also as far from sable as you can
        get without using pure white; perhaps you meant to suggest
        counter-ermine, which is sable with argent ermine tails?)

        > Though I was under the impression that color on color meant a picture
        > on a background - ie a red rose on a blue background. not 2 colors as
        > the background side by side..... maybe someone can clarify on that.

        As I stated in my reply to rosalie's original question, "color on
        color" essentially means "color touching color". There are
        circumstances in which you can do it, but they're limited, and it is
        considered best to avoid it altogether if possible.

        Jaelle of Armida has written a lesson on contrast
        <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/lessons/lesson19.html> that you
        might find useful if you're interested in further clarifying the matter
        for yourself.


        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      • SidheMaiden
        archerpren: You have divided your field and used white as your background along the top division....there is no white color in heraldry.... white , or
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 5, 2007
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          archerpren:

          You have divided your field and used 'white' as your background along the top division....there is no 'white' color in heraldry....'white', or Argent, is considered a metal and is used to symbolize silver. Being so, there should be no conflict by having 'red' [Gules] hearts on an Argent [silver/white] background. It follows the no color on color and no metal on metal rule.

          I am not sure what your herald means saying there is conflict. I must be missing something.

          The ONLY loophole to the color/color, metal/metal rule are rare instances when using a color designation as "proper". The most easy to understand example is saying you are using a blue background and a "bear proper" as your object. The "bear proper" means that the bear would be [most likely] brown, just as it is in nature. This means brown would be placed on blue, bending the normal rule.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          ... This isn t quite accurate. You can t just ignore the rules of contrast when dealing with a charge blazoned as proper. Instead, you must determine whether
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 5, 2007
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            SidheMaiden wrote:
            > The ONLY loophole to the color/color, metal/metal rule are rare
            > instances when using a color designation as "proper". The most easy to
            > understand example is saying you are using a blue background and a
            > "bear proper" as your object. The "bear proper" means that the bear
            > would be [most likely] brown, just as it is in nature. This means
            > brown would be placed on blue, bending the normal rule.

            This isn't quite accurate. You can't just ignore the rules of contrast
            when dealing with a charge blazoned as proper. Instead, you must
            determine whether the charge should be classed with the metals or the
            colors for purposes of contrast, then apply the usual rules.
            Sub-section "a" of section 2 of Part VIII of the Rules for Submission
            <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#8.2> specifies:

            > a. Contrasting Tinctures - Good contrast exists between:

            > iii. A color and a charge, blazoned as proper, that is predominantly
            > light;
            >
            > iv. A metal and a charge, blazoned as proper, that is predominantly
            > dark.

            Anything brown blazoned "proper" would be predominantly dark, so it
            would have good contrast only with metals. The rules laid out in
            sub-section "b" would be applied to it with this assumption. Thus, in
            keeping with RfS VIII.2.b.i, which states, "The field must have good
            contrast with every charge placed directly on it. . .," it could not be
            placed on a field azure.

            You also can't always rely on your instincts where the tinctures of
            charges proper are concerned. Bears proper, for instance, have no
            default tincture; you must specify "a brown bear proper" if a brown
            bear is what you want. There's a table outlining the conventional
            tinctures of various charges when blazoned "proper" at
            <http://sca.org/heraldry/coagloss.html#proper>.


            Coblaith Mhuimhneach
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          • archerpren
            the conflict was with the black and red stripes. rosalie ... along the top division....there is no white color in heraldry.... white , or Argent, is
            Message 5 of 5 , Apr 5, 2007
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              the conflict was with the black and red stripes. rosalie

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "SidheMaiden" <sidhemaiden@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > archerpren:
              >
              > You have divided your field and used 'white' as your background
              along the top division....there is no 'white' color in
              heraldry....'white', or Argent, is considered a metal and is used to
              symbolize silver. Being so, there should be no conflict by
              having 'red' [Gules] hearts on an Argent [silver/white] background.
              It follows the no color on color and no metal on metal rule.
              >
              > I am not sure what your herald means saying there is conflict. I
              must be missing something.
              >
              > The ONLY loophole to the color/color, metal/metal rule are rare
              instances when using a color designation as "proper". The most easy
              to understand example is saying you are using a blue background and
              a "bear proper" as your object. The "bear proper" means that the bear
              would be [most likely] brown, just as it is in nature. This means
              brown would be placed on blue, bending the normal rule.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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