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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Opinions on name and device please?

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... The original article by Postles has unfortunately not been available for quite some time now. However, there are alternate places that you can document
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 3, 2007
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      Quoth "sarac76srvy":
      > My persona is a merchant lady/merchant's wife from England around 1300
      > or so. My 'working name' so far is Juliana de Barowe. I didn't find
      > any conflicts in the online OandA. I can find documentation online for
      > both names in "An Index to the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland,
      > England" by Karen Larsdatter, which is based on Dr. D. A. Postles'
      > "Rutland Lay Subsidy Rolls". My concern is that the link that refers
      > back to his page no longer points to the article in question, and I
      > can't seem to find his original (online) article.

      The original article by Postles has unfortunately not been available
      for quite some time now. However, there are alternate places that
      you can document this name. In particular, Withycombe _Oxford Dictionary
      of English Christian Names_ s.n. Juliana has information about this name.
      It is a Latinization of the feminine name <Julian>, <Julyan>, or
      <Gillian>; <Julian>, its variants, and its pet forms were "one of the
      commonest girl's names from the 12th to 15th C" (in England). The
      spelling <Juliana> is appropriate in Latin contexts - such as written
      documents, court records, and university settings (where Latin was
      spoken). In every day English conversation, the name would've been
      <Julian>, <Julyan>, or one of the other forms.

      > And I found 'de Barowe' listed on this page:
      > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Rutland/bynamesalphabetically.htm
      >
      > Can I use these sites as documentation for the names?

      Yes.

      > If so, how would
      > I use this to send in documentation? Both pages are within the SCA
      > site itself, so would a printout of the page that includes the URL
      > suffice?

      Because these are web pages whose URLS begin www.sca.org/heraldry,
      you do not need to include printed copies. What you do need is to
      provide a summary of the data - that is, the source, the author, the
      URL, the date accessed, and a statement about what the source says
      about the elements.

      > so if I can find both names in there, I should be good to go.
      > (Question regarding documentation from Reaney: that book is on the
      > list of books that does not require photocopies. I would assume, then,
      > that a simple reference to page number would be enough?)

      It isn't - for all sources, including ones where photocopies are required,
      you have to summarized what the source says. In the case of R&W, this is
      usually just a matter of noting what dates are given for the particular
      spelling you wish to register.

      > Regarding my device: after much sketching and fiddling about, I have
      > decided on the following: Vert, three apples gules on a pale argent
      > cotised.

      That's lovely! A bit of re-blazoning - the primary charge should come
      first, then secondaries, then tertiaries. This gives us: "Vert, on a
      pale cotised argent, three apples gules".

      > I couldn't find any
      > conflicts in the Armorial... apparently apples are not terribly common
      > in the first place, and when they do appear, they are not often by
      > themselves. The nearest conflict I could come up with is that of the
      > flag of Nigeria, which is "Vert, a pale argent". Would the apples and
      > the pale cotised be enough of a difference to not have to worry about
      > that?

      Yes - you've got one CD for adding the apples, and one for adding the
      cotises. Another close, but clear, design is Melucine de Ronceverte
      (reg. 09/1980 via Meridies), "Vert, on a pale argent a greenbriar slip
      vert." There's one CD for adding the cotises, and another for changing
      the slip to three apples.

      Unfortunately, though, I did find a conflict - Juturna di Parma (reg.
      08/1994 via the West), "Vert, on a pale endorsed argent three roundels
      vert." A pale endorsed is the same thing as a pale cotised, so there's
      only one CD, for changing the roundels to apples.

      You could try tracking Juturna down to see if she'd be willing to give
      you permission to conflict.

      -Aryanhwy



      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • sarac76srvy
      ... required, ... this is ... Thank you! This is exactly the information I was seeking. ... I had wondered a little about the order of the blazoning. :) Thank
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 3, 2007
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        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

        > It isn't - for all sources, including ones where photocopies are
        required,
        > you have to summarized what the source says. In the case of R&W,
        this is
        > usually just a matter of noting what dates are given for the particular
        > spelling you wish to register.

        Thank you! This is exactly the information I was seeking.


        > > Regarding my device: after much sketching and fiddling about, I have
        > > decided on the following: Vert, three apples gules on a pale argent
        > > cotised.
        >
        > That's lovely! A bit of re-blazoning - the primary charge should come
        > first, then secondaries, then tertiaries. This gives us: "Vert, on a
        > pale cotised argent, three apples gules".
        > >snip<
        > Unfortunately, though, I did find a conflict - Juturna di Parma (reg.
        > 08/1994 via the West), "Vert, on a pale endorsed argent three roundels
        > vert." A pale endorsed is the same thing as a pale cotised, so there's
        > only one CD, for changing the roundels to apples.
        >
        > You could try tracking Juturna down to see if she'd be willing to give
        > you permission to conflict.
        >
        > -Aryanhwy
        >

        I had wondered a little about the order of the blazoning. :) Thank you.

        So what you are saying is that I am unlikely to get this one approved
        unless I have permission to conflict from Juturna? Or I need to add
        something (or change something) in order for there to be enough of a
        difference that there is no conflict? For example: Vert, on a pale
        ermine, three apples gules _OR_ Vert, on a pale cotised argent, three
        apples gules, all within a bordure argent _OR_ Vert, on a pale cotised
        argent between two oak leaves argent, three apples gules. (Not sure
        about the blazoning of the last one, but it's just an example at this
        point.) :)

        Well, my second choice that I had worked out was the following: Vert,
        on a pall cotised argent, four apples gules.(My concern with this one
        was whether or not it was implied just _where_ the apples should go. I
        basically want them in pall, but I don't know if I have to specify
        that or if it is a 'given'.)

        And again, thank you for your help.
        Sara
      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... That s right - the design above wouldn t be registerable without permission to conflict. ... You could also do that. ... This would definitely be clear of
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 3, 2007
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          Quoth "sarac76srvy":
          > > > decided on the following: Vert, three apples gules on a pale argent
          > > > cotised.
          > >
          > > Unfortunately, though, I did find a conflict - Juturna di Parma (reg.
          > > 08/1994 via the West), "Vert, on a pale endorsed argent three roundels
          > > vert." A pale endorsed is the same thing as a pale cotised, so there's
          > > only one CD, for changing the roundels to apples.
          >
          > So what you are saying is that I am unlikely to get this one approved
          > unless I have permission to conflict from Juturna?

          That's right - the design above wouldn't be registerable without permission
          to conflict.

          > Or I need to add
          > something (or change something) in order for there to be enough of a
          > difference that there is no conflict?

          You could also do that.

          > For example: Vert, on a pale
          > ermine, three apples gules

          This would definitely be clear of Juturna, with a CD for the changes
          to the charges on the pale, a CD for removing the cotises, and a CD
          for the tincture of the pale. There are very few charged ermine
          pales registered, and I didn't find any new conflicts.

          > _OR_ Vert, on a pale cotised argent, three
          > apples gules, all within a bordure argent

          This one also looks clear to me.

          > _OR_ Vert, on a pale cotised
          > argent between two oak leaves argent, three apples gules. (Not sure
          > about the blazoning of the last one, but it's just an example at this
          > point.) :)

          Your blazon is correct, and this also looks conflict free.

          > Well, my second choice that I had worked out was the following: Vert,
          > on a pall cotised argent, four apples gules.(My concern with this one
          > was whether or not it was implied just _where_ the apples should go. I
          > basically want them in pall, but I don't know if I have to specify
          > that or if it is a 'given'.)

          Usually charges are distributed on an ordinary in the way that fills
          the space best; with four charges in pall, I'd expect there to be one
          on each leg, and one in the center. I didn't see any conflicts with this,
          either.

          -Aryanhwy




          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • sarac76srvy
          Thank you, milady. Now my only difficulty is deciding which one! Back to the sketchbook, I suppose... ... Sara
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 3, 2007
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            Thank you, milady. Now my only difficulty is deciding which one! Back
            to the sketchbook, I suppose...

            :)
            Sara
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Some advice which I found *very* helpful when I was deciding on my own arms - draw all of them up, color them in, and put them someplace you ll see them
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 3, 2007
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              Quoth "sarac76srvy":
              > Thank you, milady. Now my only difficulty is deciding which one! Back
              > to the sketchbook, I suppose...

              Some advice which I found *very* helpful when I was deciding on my
              own arms - draw all of them up, color them in, and put them someplace
              you'll see them regularly and keep them there for at least two weeks
              (the fridge and the bathroom mirror are two good places). After the
              end of that time, see which ones you still like!

              -Aryanhwy



              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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