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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

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  • j davis
    ... sorry to possibly disagree with you, but. part of chivalry is offering to help those we see as maybe needing help. but no still means no. a courteous
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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      --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
      sorry to possibly disagree with you, but. part of
      chivalry is offering to help those we see as maybe
      needing help. but no still means no. a courteous offer
      to help should be accepted or refused with courtesy,
      but it can be refused. an other part of chivalry is
      not practiced in our dream very much because we do it
      so naturally that we miss seeing it AND recognizing
      it. it is the part of protecting those weaker than we
      are and need a strong arm to wield sword and bear
      shield on their behalf. look at the number of us that
      are serving and have served in the military and naval
      forces, are medical personnel, police officers, and
      fire fighters. we see these all the time but forget
      that this too shows chivalry. also, think of all the
      requests for prayers and good thought we have gotten
      on this list alone and then look at the responses.
      Muire aine's request for her son comes to mind right
      now. (how is he doing? any way?) so chivalry is far
      from dead. either in our dream or in mundania. john of
      antioche

      I told her she was going to have
      > to get used to
      > it! :-D
      >
      > jerusha
      > -----
      > Susan Farmer
      > sfarmer@...
      > University of Tennessee
      > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
      > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
      >
      >




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    • Jennifer Townsend
      I am not an official SCA member (yet) but I can say as someone who grew up in the changing 60 s & 70 s that to me chivalry (beyond common courtesty) depends
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 5, 2007
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        I am not an official SCA member (yet) but I can say as someone who grew
        up in the changing 60's & 70's that to me 'chivalry' (beyond common
        courtesty) depends on the setting. I work with men and while I do not
        expect them to open doors for me, etc, nor do I wait on them hand and
        foot, making their coffee, etc. At work, I am an equal. Now, in my
        pesonal life, I most definitely expect my significant other to treat me
        with the utmost chivalry though I realize many women would say that
        is 'demeaning' as well. You can still be partners and be chivalrous at
        the same time. As an added sidebar, allowing the man to carry things
        allows the woman to slip her arm in her man's...........now that's a
        nice picture and one seen way too seldom these days.


        Jeneuer de Newcastle
        Jennifer Townsend
        San Antonio, TX
      • Aurelia / Amanda
        My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of his
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 11, 2007
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          My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated like one!!!

          Aurelia of Bodiam
          Middle Kingdom


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

          I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
          me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
          behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
          happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
          have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
          other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
          for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
          packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
          the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
          behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
          by both genders equally.

          Katherine

          --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

          > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
          >
          > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
          > female friends said
          > > something rather interesting to me, according to
          > her the whole idea of
          > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
          > disagree with her but I'm
          > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
          > apply Chivalry to our
          > > modern life.
          > >
          >
          > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
          > this is largely
          > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
          > to be treated
          > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
          > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
          > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
          > much"). My new
          > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
          > because everything was
          > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
          > to get used to
          > it! :-D
          >
          > jerusha
          > -----
          > Susan Farmer
          > sfarmer@goldsword. com
          > University of Tennessee
          > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
          > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
          >
          >

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        • Kyla
          Hello, My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the Middle Kingdom. I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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            Hello,

            My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the
            Middle Kingdom.

            I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all of you,
            besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
            carrying packages?
            First of all, some of the people I know who open doors are the least
            chivalrous people I have ever met! These are the guys who expect me to
            sleep with them because they fed me, and never look me in the face when I'm
            wearing a bodice. The same guys who would try to get me drunk if I dared
            say 'No,' to them. The same guys who laugh at DWI's because their parents
            will get them off. You get the idea?

            Chivalry is about behaving with honor in everything you do.
            Things like: Not making promises you can't or won't keep. (Also known as
            keeping your word.)
            Not taking things that aren't yours, unless you have reached some agreement
            with the previous owner, which agreement does NOT include coercion, threats,
            blackmail or murder.
            Being considerate of those around you, the least of which is opening doors!
            How about bathing so you don't offend peoples' noses, when you will be in
            public, and being quiet in a crowded theater, no matter how bored you are,
            or how funny your comment, so the people around you can hear the show; in
            general, acting in accordance with the conventions of the society you live
            in.

            Historically, I would like to point out, chivalry was behaving with honor to
            those of your noble class - an armed society is a polite society! Very few
            knights were chivalrous to the lower classes, or to women who didn't have
            noble protectors. No knight would hold a door for a drudge!

            Please, no more about holding doors as the epitome of chivalry; what have
            you or your done that is truly chivalrous?

            Kyla

            -----Original Message-----
            From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of Aurelia / Amanda
            Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:24 PM
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry


            My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his
            Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of
            his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for
            me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something
            that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right
            when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That
            is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head
            up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women
            that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in
            shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated
            like one!!!

            Aurelia of Bodiam
            Middle Kingdom

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

            I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
            me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
            behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
            happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
            have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
            other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
            for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
            packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
            the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
            behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
            by both genders equally.

            Katherine

            --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

            > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
            >
            > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
            > female friends said
            > > something rather interesting to me, according to
            > her the whole idea of
            > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
            > disagree with her but I'm
            > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
            > apply Chivalry to our
            > > modern life.
            > >
            >
            > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
            > this is largely
            > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
            > to be treated
            > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
            > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
            > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
            > much"). My new
            > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
            > because everything was
            > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
            > to get used to
            > it! :-D
            >
            > jerusha
            > -----
            > Susan Farmer
            > sfarmer@goldsword. com
            > University of Tennessee
            > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
            > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
            >
            >

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          • Cailin Mac Kinnach
            Greetings! This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was trying to write Ian s post, but he s done a fantastic job of it, and left not much
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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              Greetings!

              This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was trying to
              write Ian's post, but he's done a fantastic job of it, and left not much for
              me to add.

              I do want to add one thing. Honor is another huge part of Chivalry. Here's
              a nifty article by a Duke on Chivalry and knighthood. It's quite short, but
              very succinct.

              Too often, people get distracted by "displays of Chivalry". I.e. opening
              doors. If this were all there was to Chivalry, what a sad thing that would
              be! To me, recognition should never be the goal of Chivalry. I really feel
              that one shouldn't be actively trying to perform Chivalrous acts, rather
              that one should turn their eyes inward and try to find Chivalrous traits
              there, and finding want, doing what is necessary to forge them.

              The aspects of Chivalry that resonate most with me are: Service and Honor.
              Honor for me, is must succinctly defined as "Who you are when no one is
              looking." Service comes from a genuine desire to help and serve others.
              Not to be confused with "The zealous desire to be praised for helping
              others." I've known several emotional vampires who were most helpful,
              because they thrived off the praise and recognition others gave them. To an
              extent, I am one, but I'm doing my best to fix that.

              I've not included gender, b/c in this discussion it is irrelevant. The
              principals of Chivalry are not dead. Our society has made living them rare,
              and usually dose not reward them as much as it rewards self promotion.

              Cheers!

              Cailin


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Chris Catalfamo
              It also isn t just about women and men. It also must be apparent in the way women treat each other in a noble setting and the way men treat each other as well
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                It also isn't just about women and men. It also must be apparent in the way women treat each other in a noble setting and the way men treat each other as well even when they are rivals or enemies. Respect and honor=nobility. Whether or not it always happened in reality, it was still the core of being a GENTLEwoman and a GENTLEman. The only place I have witnessed it is in doing 19th century. I was somewhat surprised that I didn't witness it at Pennsic except from one WOMAN who complimented my daughter very elegantly on her gown. Chivalrous behavior makes you want to do it back because it makes you feel your worth and dignity as a person.
                In modern times, unfortunately, resentment at increasing equality between the sexes and among people had led to an abandonment of the concept IMO. I consider myself a feminist but what it means to me is in witnessing to the equality of all but respecting the dignity of all--and people still do this--at least sometimes in my town. We all hold doors for each and are polite and even sometimes let someone else have that parking space and help people who look like they could use a hand. I'm still romantic enough to think many people do this. But what really offends me is the polarization and alienation of a technological society where people walking down the street don't even meet the eyes of others because their heads are plastered to cell phone. They carry around their little cliques with them all the time and there is never even a chance for a smile or a nod of the head. Just my beef. I'm an old hippie who wanted us all to be different.
                The only place where you can observe chivalry on a regular basis is in the military, where people are taught respect, and of course the terrible irony is that at the same time they are trained to be killers. Same old same old.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Kyla
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:21 PM
                Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry


                Hello,

                My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the
                Middle Kingdom.

                I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all of you,
                besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                carrying packages?
                First of all, some of the people I know who open doors are the least
                chivalrous people I have ever met! These are the guys who expect me to
                sleep with them because they fed me, and never look me in the face when I'm
                wearing a bodice. The same guys who would try to get me drunk if I dared
                say 'No,' to them. The same guys who laugh at DWI's because their parents
                will get them off. You get the idea?

                Chivalry is about behaving with honor in everything you do.
                Things like: Not making promises you can't or won't keep. (Also known as
                keeping your word.)
                Not taking things that aren't yours, unless you have reached some agreement
                with the previous owner, which agreement does NOT include coercion, threats,
                blackmail or murder.
                Being considerate of those around you, the least of which is opening doors!
                How about bathing so you don't offend peoples' noses, when you will be in
                public, and being quiet in a crowded theater, no matter how bored you are,
                or how funny your comment, so the people around you can hear the show; in
                general, acting in accordance with the conventions of the society you live
                in.

                Historically, I would like to point out, chivalry was behaving with honor to
                those of your noble class - an armed society is a polite society! Very few
                knights were chivalrous to the lower classes, or to women who didn't have
                noble protectors. No knight would hold a door for a drudge!

                Please, no more about holding doors as the epitome of chivalry; what have
                you or your done that is truly chivalrous?

                Kyla

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of Aurelia / Amanda
                Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:24 PM
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his
                Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of
                his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for
                me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something
                that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right
                when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That
                is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head
                up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women
                that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in
                shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated
                like one!!!

                Aurelia of Bodiam
                Middle Kingdom

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
                me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
                behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
                happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
                have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
                other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
                for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
                packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
                the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
                behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
                by both genders equally.

                Katherine

                --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

                > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
                >
                > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
                > female friends said
                > > something rather interesting to me, according to
                > her the whole idea of
                > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
                > disagree with her but I'm
                > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
                > apply Chivalry to our
                > > modern life.
                > >
                >
                > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
                > this is largely
                > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
                > to be treated
                > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
                > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
                > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
                > much"). My new
                > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
                > because everything was
                > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
                > to get used to
                > it! :-D
                >
                > jerusha
                > -----
                > Susan Farmer
                > sfarmer@goldsword. com
                > University of Tennessee
                > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
                >
                >

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                ... Of course not. That was the specific topic mentioned by someone, so I (and probably others) replied in direct response to their message. If the topic had
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                  On Monday 15 January 2007 16:21, Kyla wrote:
                  > I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance:  Do all of you,
                  > besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                  > carrying packages?

                  Of course not. That was the specific topic mentioned by someone, so I (and
                  probably others) replied in direct response to their message. If the
                  topic had been linguistics instead of chivalry, and if someone had
                  said something about speaking medieval Japanese, and we replied on that
                  topic, it wouldn't mean we thought Latin was unimportant, would it? :-)

                  Justin

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                • David Roland
                  ... First of all Thank you Cailln and Kayla. However, there is always, ALWAYS more to be said in the exploration of just what chivalry is and how we, you and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 16, 2007
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                    > Greetings!
                    >
                    > This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was
                    > trying to write Ian's post, but he's done a fantastic job of it,
                    > and left not much for me to add.


                    First of all Thank you Cailln and Kayla.

                    However, there is always, ALWAYS more to be said in the exploration
                    of just what chivalry is and how we, you and I, and us as a people
                    are doing to internalize and exhibit chivalry at all times in all
                    places in all circumstances.

                    Noone is perfect, that isn't the point, the point is to continuously
                    attempt to be better. Truly something to do not just for chivalry
                    but all good endeavors and person traits.

                    One of the things I find interesting in today's world is that to be
                    courteous one is also meek. This is far from the truth and I doubt
                    many would accuse a knight in the SCA of being meek. Think of the
                    chivalrous people you know or have heard of. Truly think for a bit.

                    Are they meek? I doubt it. But I can probably guess that they are
                    courteous as well.

                    There is an Honesty that must be exhibited to be chivalry. Honest to
                    oneself and ones ideals. But who are you? What do you believe? Are
                    your perceptions of yourself mostly accurate? Are your beliefs one
                    that is interested in the betterment of themself, their community and
                    world should have? Be honest.

                    Integrity is honesty when noone else is around goes one simple
                    definition. It means being accountable even if you won't get in
                    trouble.

                    As you can imagine Chivalry ISN'T dead but the white horse as a steed
                    for the knight in shining armor isn't either. Instead the steed is
                    whatever moves the Chivalrous person, Physically or Philosophically,
                    and the shining armor are the properly held ideals that are followed.

                    There is soooo much more this discussion can say about Chivalry.

                    Please...

                    Say it.

                    Ian the Green, Award of Arms
                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... Of course not, but that was the specific topic cited by someone else, so I (and probably others) responded to that particular thread. Justin --
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 17, 2007
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                      On Monday 15 January 2007 16:21, Kyla wrote:
                      > I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance:  Do all of you,
                      > besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                      > carrying packages?

                      Of course not, but that was the specific topic cited by someone else, so
                      I (and probably others) responded to that particular thread.

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                    • Selena
                      Chivalry is not dead. It is not being taught as often now. My sons (I have 4)have always been taught to hold a door, give up a seat on the bus for someone who
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 17, 2007
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                        Chivalry is not dead. It is not being taught as often now. My sons (I
                        have 4)have always been taught to hold a door, give up a seat on the
                        bus for someone who needs it, say please and thank you, just be as
                        polite to others as they would like to be treated because that is what
                        I have feel is correct. These goes for women as well as men, but you
                        would not believe that people that act offended when offered.

                        "John" <sunflash@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my female friends said
                        > something rather interesting to me, according to her the whole idea
                        of
                        > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I disagree with her but I'm
                        > curious to see what you all think of how we can apply Chivalry to
                        our
                        > modern life.
                        >
                        > John
                        >
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