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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

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  • Susan B. Farmer
    ... Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world, this is largely true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want to be treated chivalrously; they
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 3, 2007
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      Quoting John <sunflash@...>:

      > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my female friends said
      > something rather interesting to me, according to her the whole idea of
      > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I disagree with her but I'm
      > curious to see what you all think of how we can apply Chivalry to our
      > modern life.
      >

      Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world, this is largely
      true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want to be treated
      "chivalrously;" they feel that it's somehow demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
      capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very much"). My new
      SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless" because everything was
      being done for her; I told her she was going to have to get used to
      it! :-D

      jerusha
      -----
      Susan Farmer
      sfarmer@...
      University of Tennessee
      Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
      http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
    • Wendy Campbell
      I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it happens
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 3, 2007
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        I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
        me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
        behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
        happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
        have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
        other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
        for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
        packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
        the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
        behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
        by both genders equally.

        Katherine

        --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:

        > Quoting John <sunflash@...>:
        >
        > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
        > female friends said
        > > something rather interesting to me, according to
        > her the whole idea of
        > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
        > disagree with her but I'm
        > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
        > apply Chivalry to our
        > > modern life.
        > >
        >
        > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
        > this is largely
        > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
        > to be treated
        > "chivalrously;" they feel that it's somehow
        > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
        > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
        > much"). My new
        > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
        > because everything was
        > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
        > to get used to
        > it! :-D
        >
        > jerusha
        > -----
        > Susan Farmer
        > sfarmer@...
        > University of Tennessee
        > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
        > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        >
        >


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      • Karen Pate
        I agree that I m quite capable of opening my own door. Chivalry isn t about doing things for someone that they could do for themselves. It s about uncommon
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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          I agree that I'm quite capable of opening my own door. Chivalry isn't about
          doing things for someone that they could do for themselves. It's about
          uncommon courtesy. In the modern sense, it applies to everyone; it means
          noticing when someone needs a hand and hopping in to offer it. It also
          means, interestingly enough, accepting the offers graciously. The modern
          world needs chivalry more than it ever did in this humble person's opinion!

          Cym



          _____

          From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Susan B. Farmer
          Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:29 PM
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry



          Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. <mailto:sunflash%40shaw.ca> ca>:

          > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my female friends said
          > something rather interesting to me, according to her the whole idea of
          > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I disagree with her but I'm
          > curious to see what you all think of how we can apply Chivalry to our
          > modern life.
          >

          Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world, this is largely
          true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want to be treated
          "chivalrously;" they feel that it's somehow demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
          capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very much"). My new
          SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless" because everything was
          being done for her; I told her she was going to have to get used to
          it! :-D

          jerusha
          -----
          Susan Farmer
          sfarmer@goldsword. <mailto:sfarmer%40goldsword.com> com
          University of Tennessee
          Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
          http://www.goldswor <http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/>
          d.com/sfarmer/Trillium/





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... I agree very much with Cym on this point. One way which a modern woman can act chivalrously is to graciously allow gentlemen to carry her things, open
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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            Quoth "Karen Pate":
            > means, interestingly enough, accepting the offers graciously. The modern

            I agree very much with Cym on this point. One way which a modern woman
            can act chivalrously is to graciously allow gentlemen to carry her things,
            open doors for her, etc. As someone who always wants to do everything by
            herself, I find this very difficult to do sometimes, but I just keep
            reminding myself that when someone asks if they can carry my things, or
            opens a door for me, they're not doing it to imply that I can't or shouldn't
            do it myself.

            And on the flip side of this, who says only men should hold open doors
            for women? I've got many grateful and surprised thanks when I've been
            the woman opening doors for me. Chivalric behaviour can go both ways in
            our modern society.

            -Aryanhwy



            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
            ... And....who says a man can only open doors for a woman? I routinely open doors for *anyone* who is immediately behind me as I approach the door. If I see
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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              On Thursday 04 January 2007 08:11, Sara L Uckelman wrote:
              > And on the flip side of this, who says only men should hold open doors
              > for women?  I've got many grateful and surprised thanks when I've been
              > the woman opening doors for me.  Chivalric behaviour can go both ways in
              > our modern society.

              And....who says a man can only open doors for a woman? I routinely open
              doors for *anyone* who is immediately behind me as I approach the door.
              If I see someone -- either gender -- carrying a lot of bags or parcels, I
              make an extra effort to time my arrival so I can hold the door for them.
              I've been doing this for much longer than I've been in the SCA, just because
              it was the right thing to do.

              Most people appreciate it, both men and women. Once there was a woman,
              carrying a shopping bag and pushing a stroller with a baby on board, who
              saw me open the door, glowered at me sternly, and made a point of letting
              me see that she was moving over to go in the *next* doorway (it was the
              multi-door entrance to a shopping mall). She obviously assumed I was doing
              it because she was a woman. I didn't say anything....if she's that horrified
              that someone would be nice to her, even if it *had* been due to traditional
              gender roles, then she must lead a very bitter existence, and didn't need
              any more grief from me.

              The best part of chivalry is simply good manners. :-)

              Justin

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
              keys fesswise reversed sable.

              Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
            • Glenda Aldrup
              Chivalry is not dead, at least where I reside. I used to have a hard time allowing others to open doors, carry things for me etc. I was always superwoman.
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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                Chivalry is not dead, at least where I reside. I used to have a hard time allowing others to open doors, carry things for me etc. I was always superwoman. After losing quite a bit of weight I am much smaller, even delicate according to some in my shire. So I have learned to let others do for me. I also hold doors for older folks, moms and dads with small children, etc. It is just the right thing to do.

                YiS,
                Fhina
                mka Renee Aldrup

                Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                Quoth "Karen Pate":
                > means, interestingly enough, accepting the offers graciously. The modern

                I agree very much with Cym on this point. One way which a modern woman
                can act chivalrously is to graciously allow gentlemen to carry her things,
                open doors for her, etc. As someone who always wants to do everything by
                herself, I find this very difficult to do sometimes, but I just keep
                reminding myself that when someone asks if they can carry my things, or
                opens a door for me, they're not doing it to imply that I can't or shouldn't
                do it myself.

                And on the flip side of this, who says only men should hold open doors
                for women? I've got many grateful and surprised thanks when I've been
                the woman opening doors for me. Chivalric behaviour can go both ways in
                our modern society.

                -Aryanhwy

                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/




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              • David Roland
                Chivalry is not dead. Chivalry is not antiquated. Chivalary is not irrelavent. Chivalry is Alive and well. Chivalry has evolved and is very much a today
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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                  Chivalry is not dead. Chivalry is not antiquated. Chivalary is not
                  irrelavent.

                  Chivalry is Alive and well. Chivalry has evolved and is very much a
                  today concept. Chivalry is very pertinent to today's world.

                  So why is it that so many people think that Chivalry is dead? Because
                  they are stuck on the concepts of needing a white horse, armor, men
                  domineering women in the middle ages and that it really only means
                  opening doors and walking closest to the road so the lady doesn't get
                  splashed. Right or wrong these seem to be what people think about when
                  they think about chivalry. Well that's like saying economics hasn't
                  advanced since the Adam Smith Wrote the Wealth of Nations in 1776.

                  Today's Chivalry absolutely has it roots in the concepts of old but
                  have evolved to today's life just as economics has evolved to accept
                  such things as the telegraph, telephone, faxes and the internet as well
                  as planes, trains and automobiles.

                  To be able to discuss if Chivalry is alive we also need to discuss just
                  what chivalry is.

                  If we accept that Chivalry is the concepts of courtesy, then most
                  certainly chivalry isn't dead. However, Chivalry is more than than
                  simply courtesy. To me, it seems that Chivalry means courtesy and
                  grace at all times but also it means standing up for, fighting for,
                  what is right and subsuming personal desires for the benefit of all.
                  It also means having the wisdom to know what battles to fight when and
                  how. It also means not sacrificing your needs or your family's needs.
                  And that takes wisdom to know the difference.

                  These concepts take courage to carry out ones convictions so someone
                  who is Chivalrous must have also have courage. But not to face down a
                  dragon. Courage to stand up in a crowd, board room, workplace or
                  community and fight for what is right. Something I think that is much
                  harder than slaying a dragon.

                  It also means being a leader and devloping leadership qualities. Not
                  it doesn't mean that you have to lead, just that because you will take
                  a stand that others will follow you. You need to learn how to deal
                  with that appropriately and correctly.

                  But despite being a leader chivalry is also about service. Service to
                  those you love, the house you live in, the people you meet, those you
                  work with, and work for, your community and to humanity.

                  And Chivalry means having the courage to say you were wrong as publicly
                  if not more publicly than you previously said you were right.

                  Yes, I open doors for ladies. I've been chastised for it by some of
                  those women. I simply ask them back that if I were a woman would they
                  have chastised me for being courteous. I have never failed to receive
                  an apology back. I ussually try to say, "Well, you're welcome then,"
                  and move on. No use dwelling on it.

                  Chivalry is alive, current and relavent. But it is neither something
                  from men to women nor is relegated to one sex any longer. Chivalry is
                  from one person to another irregardless of the sex of either person.

                  This is, in short, what Chivalry means to me and yes, Chivalry is alive
                  and well in today's Modern World.

                  Ian the Green, Award of Arms (AoA)

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "John" <sunflash@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my female friends said
                  > something rather interesting to me, according to her the whole idea
                  of
                  > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I disagree with her but I'm
                  > curious to see what you all think of how we can apply Chivalry to our
                  > modern life.
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                • Karen Pate
                  You go, girl! Cym _____ From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sara L Uckelman Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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                    You go, girl!

                    Cym



                    _____

                    From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Sara L Uckelman
                    Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:12 AM
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry



                    Quoth "Karen Pate":
                    > means, interestingly enough, accepting the offers graciously. The modern

                    I agree very much with Cym on this point. One way which a modern woman
                    can act chivalrously is to graciously allow gentlemen to carry her things,
                    open doors for her, etc. As someone who always wants to do everything by
                    herself, I find this very difficult to do sometimes, but I just keep
                    reminding myself that when someone asks if they can carry my things, or
                    opens a door for me, they're not doing it to imply that I can't or shouldn't
                    do it myself.

                    And on the flip side of this, who says only men should hold open doors
                    for women? I've got many grateful and surprised thanks when I've been
                    the woman opening doors for me. Chivalric behaviour can go both ways in
                    our modern society.

                    -Aryanhwy

                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/> .cx/~liana/





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • j davis
                    ... sorry to possibly disagree with you, but. part of chivalry is offering to help those we see as maybe needing help. but no still means no. a courteous
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 4, 2007
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                      --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
                      sorry to possibly disagree with you, but. part of
                      chivalry is offering to help those we see as maybe
                      needing help. but no still means no. a courteous offer
                      to help should be accepted or refused with courtesy,
                      but it can be refused. an other part of chivalry is
                      not practiced in our dream very much because we do it
                      so naturally that we miss seeing it AND recognizing
                      it. it is the part of protecting those weaker than we
                      are and need a strong arm to wield sword and bear
                      shield on their behalf. look at the number of us that
                      are serving and have served in the military and naval
                      forces, are medical personnel, police officers, and
                      fire fighters. we see these all the time but forget
                      that this too shows chivalry. also, think of all the
                      requests for prayers and good thought we have gotten
                      on this list alone and then look at the responses.
                      Muire aine's request for her son comes to mind right
                      now. (how is he doing? any way?) so chivalry is far
                      from dead. either in our dream or in mundania. john of
                      antioche

                      I told her she was going to have
                      > to get used to
                      > it! :-D
                      >
                      > jerusha
                      > -----
                      > Susan Farmer
                      > sfarmer@...
                      > University of Tennessee
                      > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                      > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                      >
                      >




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                    • Jennifer Townsend
                      I am not an official SCA member (yet) but I can say as someone who grew up in the changing 60 s & 70 s that to me chivalry (beyond common courtesty) depends
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 5, 2007
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                        I am not an official SCA member (yet) but I can say as someone who grew
                        up in the changing 60's & 70's that to me 'chivalry' (beyond common
                        courtesty) depends on the setting. I work with men and while I do not
                        expect them to open doors for me, etc, nor do I wait on them hand and
                        foot, making their coffee, etc. At work, I am an equal. Now, in my
                        pesonal life, I most definitely expect my significant other to treat me
                        with the utmost chivalry though I realize many women would say that
                        is 'demeaning' as well. You can still be partners and be chivalrous at
                        the same time. As an added sidebar, allowing the man to carry things
                        allows the woman to slip her arm in her man's...........now that's a
                        nice picture and one seen way too seldom these days.


                        Jeneuer de Newcastle
                        Jennifer Townsend
                        San Antonio, TX
                      • Aurelia / Amanda
                        My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of his
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 11, 2007
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                          My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated like one!!!

                          Aurelia of Bodiam
                          Middle Kingdom


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                          I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
                          me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
                          behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
                          happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
                          have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
                          other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
                          for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
                          packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
                          the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
                          behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
                          by both genders equally.

                          Katherine

                          --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

                          > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
                          >
                          > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
                          > female friends said
                          > > something rather interesting to me, according to
                          > her the whole idea of
                          > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
                          > disagree with her but I'm
                          > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
                          > apply Chivalry to our
                          > > modern life.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
                          > this is largely
                          > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
                          > to be treated
                          > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
                          > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
                          > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
                          > much"). My new
                          > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
                          > because everything was
                          > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
                          > to get used to
                          > it! :-D
                          >
                          > jerusha
                          > -----
                          > Susan Farmer
                          > sfarmer@goldsword. com
                          > University of Tennessee
                          > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                          > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
                          >
                          >

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                        • Kyla
                          Hello, My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the Middle Kingdom. I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                            Hello,

                            My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the
                            Middle Kingdom.

                            I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all of you,
                            besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                            carrying packages?
                            First of all, some of the people I know who open doors are the least
                            chivalrous people I have ever met! These are the guys who expect me to
                            sleep with them because they fed me, and never look me in the face when I'm
                            wearing a bodice. The same guys who would try to get me drunk if I dared
                            say 'No,' to them. The same guys who laugh at DWI's because their parents
                            will get them off. You get the idea?

                            Chivalry is about behaving with honor in everything you do.
                            Things like: Not making promises you can't or won't keep. (Also known as
                            keeping your word.)
                            Not taking things that aren't yours, unless you have reached some agreement
                            with the previous owner, which agreement does NOT include coercion, threats,
                            blackmail or murder.
                            Being considerate of those around you, the least of which is opening doors!
                            How about bathing so you don't offend peoples' noses, when you will be in
                            public, and being quiet in a crowded theater, no matter how bored you are,
                            or how funny your comment, so the people around you can hear the show; in
                            general, acting in accordance with the conventions of the society you live
                            in.

                            Historically, I would like to point out, chivalry was behaving with honor to
                            those of your noble class - an armed society is a polite society! Very few
                            knights were chivalrous to the lower classes, or to women who didn't have
                            noble protectors. No knight would hold a door for a drudge!

                            Please, no more about holding doors as the epitome of chivalry; what have
                            you or your done that is truly chivalrous?

                            Kyla

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                            Behalf Of Aurelia / Amanda
                            Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:24 PM
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry


                            My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his
                            Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of
                            his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for
                            me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something
                            that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right
                            when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That
                            is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head
                            up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women
                            that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in
                            shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated
                            like one!!!

                            Aurelia of Bodiam
                            Middle Kingdom

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                            I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
                            me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
                            behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
                            happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
                            have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
                            other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
                            for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
                            packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
                            the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
                            behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
                            by both genders equally.

                            Katherine

                            --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

                            > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
                            >
                            > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
                            > female friends said
                            > > something rather interesting to me, according to
                            > her the whole idea of
                            > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
                            > disagree with her but I'm
                            > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
                            > apply Chivalry to our
                            > > modern life.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
                            > this is largely
                            > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
                            > to be treated
                            > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
                            > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
                            > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
                            > much"). My new
                            > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
                            > because everything was
                            > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
                            > to get used to
                            > it! :-D
                            >
                            > jerusha
                            > -----
                            > Susan Farmer
                            > sfarmer@goldsword. com
                            > University of Tennessee
                            > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                            > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
                            >
                            >

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                          • Cailin Mac Kinnach
                            Greetings! This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was trying to write Ian s post, but he s done a fantastic job of it, and left not much
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                              Greetings!

                              This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was trying to
                              write Ian's post, but he's done a fantastic job of it, and left not much for
                              me to add.

                              I do want to add one thing. Honor is another huge part of Chivalry. Here's
                              a nifty article by a Duke on Chivalry and knighthood. It's quite short, but
                              very succinct.

                              Too often, people get distracted by "displays of Chivalry". I.e. opening
                              doors. If this were all there was to Chivalry, what a sad thing that would
                              be! To me, recognition should never be the goal of Chivalry. I really feel
                              that one shouldn't be actively trying to perform Chivalrous acts, rather
                              that one should turn their eyes inward and try to find Chivalrous traits
                              there, and finding want, doing what is necessary to forge them.

                              The aspects of Chivalry that resonate most with me are: Service and Honor.
                              Honor for me, is must succinctly defined as "Who you are when no one is
                              looking." Service comes from a genuine desire to help and serve others.
                              Not to be confused with "The zealous desire to be praised for helping
                              others." I've known several emotional vampires who were most helpful,
                              because they thrived off the praise and recognition others gave them. To an
                              extent, I am one, but I'm doing my best to fix that.

                              I've not included gender, b/c in this discussion it is irrelevant. The
                              principals of Chivalry are not dead. Our society has made living them rare,
                              and usually dose not reward them as much as it rewards self promotion.

                              Cheers!

                              Cailin


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Chris Catalfamo
                              It also isn t just about women and men. It also must be apparent in the way women treat each other in a noble setting and the way men treat each other as well
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                                It also isn't just about women and men. It also must be apparent in the way women treat each other in a noble setting and the way men treat each other as well even when they are rivals or enemies. Respect and honor=nobility. Whether or not it always happened in reality, it was still the core of being a GENTLEwoman and a GENTLEman. The only place I have witnessed it is in doing 19th century. I was somewhat surprised that I didn't witness it at Pennsic except from one WOMAN who complimented my daughter very elegantly on her gown. Chivalrous behavior makes you want to do it back because it makes you feel your worth and dignity as a person.
                                In modern times, unfortunately, resentment at increasing equality between the sexes and among people had led to an abandonment of the concept IMO. I consider myself a feminist but what it means to me is in witnessing to the equality of all but respecting the dignity of all--and people still do this--at least sometimes in my town. We all hold doors for each and are polite and even sometimes let someone else have that parking space and help people who look like they could use a hand. I'm still romantic enough to think many people do this. But what really offends me is the polarization and alienation of a technological society where people walking down the street don't even meet the eyes of others because their heads are plastered to cell phone. They carry around their little cliques with them all the time and there is never even a chance for a smile or a nod of the head. Just my beef. I'm an old hippie who wanted us all to be different.
                                The only place where you can observe chivalry on a regular basis is in the military, where people are taught respect, and of course the terrible irony is that at the same time they are trained to be killers. Same old same old.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Kyla
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:21 PM
                                Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry


                                Hello,

                                My name is Kyla, and I am currently in the Shire of Ravenslake, in the
                                Middle Kingdom.

                                I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance: Do all of you,
                                besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                                carrying packages?
                                First of all, some of the people I know who open doors are the least
                                chivalrous people I have ever met! These are the guys who expect me to
                                sleep with them because they fed me, and never look me in the face when I'm
                                wearing a bodice. The same guys who would try to get me drunk if I dared
                                say 'No,' to them. The same guys who laugh at DWI's because their parents
                                will get them off. You get the idea?

                                Chivalry is about behaving with honor in everything you do.
                                Things like: Not making promises you can't or won't keep. (Also known as
                                keeping your word.)
                                Not taking things that aren't yours, unless you have reached some agreement
                                with the previous owner, which agreement does NOT include coercion, threats,
                                blackmail or murder.
                                Being considerate of those around you, the least of which is opening doors!
                                How about bathing so you don't offend peoples' noses, when you will be in
                                public, and being quiet in a crowded theater, no matter how bored you are,
                                or how funny your comment, so the people around you can hear the show; in
                                general, acting in accordance with the conventions of the society you live
                                in.

                                Historically, I would like to point out, chivalry was behaving with honor to
                                those of your noble class - an armed society is a polite society! Very few
                                knights were chivalrous to the lower classes, or to women who didn't have
                                noble protectors. No knight would hold a door for a drudge!

                                Please, no more about holding doors as the epitome of chivalry; what have
                                you or your done that is truly chivalrous?

                                Kyla

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                Behalf Of Aurelia / Amanda
                                Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:24 PM
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                                My fiance is a knight in the SCA. I do notice a slight difference with his
                                Chivalry in the Mundane World. When we are at events, he is more aware of
                                his chivalry. In the Mundane World, he still opens doors at restaurants for
                                me. He rarely opens the car door for me anymore. I do miss that. Something
                                that we do in either aspect of our life... the woman is always on the right
                                when we are walking hand in hand. Why? Because a woman is always right. That
                                is an SCA saying that we always take into the Mundane World. I hold my head
                                up a little bit higher when he is an utmost gentleman. For all the women
                                that say that Chivalry is dead, you just haven't found your "knight in
                                shining armor" yet. Best of luck. We are women and deserve to be treated
                                like one!!!

                                Aurelia of Bodiam
                                Middle Kingdom

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Wendy Campbell <biosigns83642@...>
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 12:13:10 AM
                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Chivalry

                                I appreciate it when someone in ML holds a door for
                                me, helps me with something heavy, or otherwise
                                behaves chivalrously toward me. Unfortunately, it
                                happens so rarely that when it DOES happen, I usually
                                have to do a self-check to not be suspicious of the
                                other person's motives. I don't mind holding a door
                                for a gentleman, either, particularly if he's juggling
                                packages or children, or the alternative is shutting
                                the door in his face. A lot of "unchivalrous"
                                behavior, IMO, is just bad manners, and it's displayed
                                by both genders equally.

                                Katherine

                                --- "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@goldsword. com> wrote:

                                > Quoting John <sunflash@shaw. ca>:
                                >
                                > > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my
                                > female friends said
                                > > something rather interesting to me, according to
                                > her the whole idea of
                                > > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I
                                > disagree with her but I'm
                                > > curious to see what you all think of how we can
                                > apply Chivalry to our
                                > > modern life.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Unfortunately, I think that in the mundane world,
                                > this is largely
                                > true. Many of my mundane women friends do not want
                                > to be treated
                                > "chivalrously; " they feel that it's somehow
                                > demeaning (aka, "I'm quite
                                > capeable of opening a door by myself, thank you very
                                > much"). My new
                                > SCAdian friend remarked that she felt "useless"
                                > because everything was
                                > being done for her; I told her she was going to have
                                > to get used to
                                > it! :-D
                                >
                                > jerusha
                                > -----
                                > Susan Farmer
                                > sfarmer@goldsword. com
                                > University of Tennessee
                                > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                                > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
                                >
                                >

                                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                ... Of course not. That was the specific topic mentioned by someone, so I (and probably others) replied in direct response to their message. If the topic had
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 15, 2007
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                                  On Monday 15 January 2007 16:21, Kyla wrote:
                                  > I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance:  Do all of you,
                                  > besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                                  > carrying packages?

                                  Of course not. That was the specific topic mentioned by someone, so I (and
                                  probably others) replied in direct response to their message. If the
                                  topic had been linguistics instead of chivalry, and if someone had
                                  said something about speaking medieval Japanese, and we replied on that
                                  topic, it wouldn't mean we thought Latin was unimportant, would it? :-)

                                  Justin

                                  --
                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                • David Roland
                                  ... First of all Thank you Cailln and Kayla. However, there is always, ALWAYS more to be said in the exploration of just what chivalry is and how we, you and
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 16, 2007
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                                    > Greetings!
                                    >
                                    > This thread struck with me, and up until two minutes ago, I was
                                    > trying to write Ian's post, but he's done a fantastic job of it,
                                    > and left not much for me to add.


                                    First of all Thank you Cailln and Kayla.

                                    However, there is always, ALWAYS more to be said in the exploration
                                    of just what chivalry is and how we, you and I, and us as a people
                                    are doing to internalize and exhibit chivalry at all times in all
                                    places in all circumstances.

                                    Noone is perfect, that isn't the point, the point is to continuously
                                    attempt to be better. Truly something to do not just for chivalry
                                    but all good endeavors and person traits.

                                    One of the things I find interesting in today's world is that to be
                                    courteous one is also meek. This is far from the truth and I doubt
                                    many would accuse a knight in the SCA of being meek. Think of the
                                    chivalrous people you know or have heard of. Truly think for a bit.

                                    Are they meek? I doubt it. But I can probably guess that they are
                                    courteous as well.

                                    There is an Honesty that must be exhibited to be chivalry. Honest to
                                    oneself and ones ideals. But who are you? What do you believe? Are
                                    your perceptions of yourself mostly accurate? Are your beliefs one
                                    that is interested in the betterment of themself, their community and
                                    world should have? Be honest.

                                    Integrity is honesty when noone else is around goes one simple
                                    definition. It means being accountable even if you won't get in
                                    trouble.

                                    As you can imagine Chivalry ISN'T dead but the white horse as a steed
                                    for the knight in shining armor isn't either. Instead the steed is
                                    whatever moves the Chivalrous person, Physically or Philosophically,
                                    and the shining armor are the properly held ideals that are followed.

                                    There is soooo much more this discussion can say about Chivalry.

                                    Please...

                                    Say it.

                                    Ian the Green, Award of Arms
                                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                    ... Of course not, but that was the specific topic cited by someone else, so I (and probably others) responded to that particular thread. Justin --
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                      On Monday 15 January 2007 16:21, Kyla wrote:
                                      > I have been watching this topic with growing annoyance:  Do all of you,
                                      > besides Ian the Green, really believe chivalry is just opening doors and
                                      > carrying packages?

                                      Of course not, but that was the specific topic cited by someone else, so
                                      I (and probably others) responded to that particular thread.

                                      Justin

                                      --
                                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                    • Selena
                                      Chivalry is not dead. It is not being taught as often now. My sons (I have 4)have always been taught to hold a door, give up a seat on the bus for someone who
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                        Chivalry is not dead. It is not being taught as often now. My sons (I
                                        have 4)have always been taught to hold a door, give up a seat on the
                                        bus for someone who needs it, say please and thank you, just be as
                                        polite to others as they would like to be treated because that is what
                                        I have feel is correct. These goes for women as well as men, but you
                                        would not believe that people that act offended when offered.

                                        "John" <sunflash@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I was out at the bar on new years and one of my female friends said
                                        > something rather interesting to me, according to her the whole idea
                                        of
                                        > chivalry and what it stands for is dead, I disagree with her but I'm
                                        > curious to see what you all think of how we can apply Chivalry to
                                        our
                                        > modern life.
                                        >
                                        > John
                                        >
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