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What kind od documentation is needed?

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  • Patti
    I am fairly new to this group, so please forgive me for repeating a question if it has been asked before. I have a fairly good idea of what I want my SCA name
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 29, 2006
      I am fairly new to this group, so please forgive me for repeating a
      question if it has been asked before. I have a fairly good idea of
      what I want my SCA name to be. The time period doesn't bother me, as
      I will continue to make what garb/country/period of origin interests
      me. How do I go about getting a name registered? Where can I find
      what documentation is needed? And does everyone need a coat of arme?
      How can I design one that reflects my interests without repeating
      someone elses'? Thank you for your help. I know it is a boatload of
      questions all at once.


      Patti (for now anyway)
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... A good place to look for documentation is the Medieval Names Archive, at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names. What you want is evidence that each specific
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 29, 2006
        Quoth "Patti":
        > I am fairly new to this group, so please forgive me for repeating a
        > question if it has been asked before. I have a fairly good idea of
        > what I want my SCA name to be. The time period doesn't bother me, as
        > I will continue to make what garb/country/period of origin interests
        > me. How do I go about getting a name registered? Where can I find
        > what documentation is needed?

        A good place to look for documentation is the Medieval Names Archive,
        at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names. What you want is evidence that
        each specific element of your name was used prior to 1600, and that
        the overall construction is one which is found in the cultures from
        which the elements come from.

        What is the name you've chosen? Perhaps some of us here can help.
        There are also many books which are very useful for documenting SCA
        names, and we can recommend some which your local library might have
        if we know what culture the name you've chosen is from.

        > And does everyone need a coat of arme?

        Nope! If you don't want one, you don't need one.

        > How can I design one that reflects my interests without repeating
        > someone elses'?

        There's an easy way out of this: Don't! The idea that your coat of
        arms must reflect all of your interests is a very modern one (and often
        results in very modern looking heraldry). My recommendation is that
        if you do decide you want a coat of arms, don't worry about trying
        to make it what is sometimes jokingly called "resume heraldry" ("I
        cook, I sew, I do scribal arts, so I need a cooking pot, a needle,
        and a quill pen on my arms..."). Instead, looking at images of
        period heraldry, chose two tinctures that you like, maybe a simple
        geometric charge or two, and then design something which looks like
        that sort of thing you find in the medieval rolls of arms. If you
        want to browse armory from assorted cultures, check ou the Medieval
        Heraldry Archive, at http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/.

        -Aryanhwy, who bears the arms "Purpure, a bordure ermine", which has
        absolutely nothing to do with her interest in the SCA. :)



        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • Wendy Campbell
        Along these lines, I had someone tell me I couldn t use my many-times great grandmother s name, which was recorded in family records right after period , so
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 29, 2006
          Along these lines, I had someone tell me I couldn't
          use my many-times great grandmother's name, which was
          recorded in family records right after "period", so
          I'm assuming at least the family name was in use
          during "period" in order for it to have been passed
          on. I was under the impression that we couldn't use
          famous people's names and arms, but others were okay.
          Could someone clarify this? It would make the
          documentation so simple for me!

          Katherine

          > What is the name you've chosen? Perhaps some of us
          > here can help.
          > There are also many books which are very useful for
          > documenting SCA
          > names, and we can recommend some which your local
          > library might have
          > if we know what culture the name you've chosen is
          > from.


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        • Maria
          As far as I know the rules are ... if the name is of historical note ANYWHERE it can t be used. I had a name rejected because it was used by the many times
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 29, 2006
            As far as I know the rules are ...
            if the name is of historical note ANYWHERE it can't be used. I had a name rejected because it was used by the many times great grandmother of the current Queen of England.

            Also, you can use ONE of your real names - either first or last but not both. Even if they are period and not found in historical note.

            That's about all I know about the naming process, but then I'm not a Herald.

            Maria
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Wendy Campbell
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:46 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Name Was: Documentation Needed?


            Along these lines, I had someone tell me I couldn't
            use my many-times great grandmother's name, which was
            recorded in family records right after "period", so
            I'm assuming at least the family name was in use
            during "period" in order for it to have been passed
            on. I was under the impression that we couldn't use
            famous people's names and arms, but others were okay.
            Could someone clarify this? It would make the
            documentation so simple for me!

            Katherine

            > What is the name you've chosen? Perhaps some of us
            > here can help.
            > There are also many books which are very useful for
            > documenting SCA
            > names, and we can recommend some which your local
            > library might have
            > if we know what culture the name you've chosen is
            > from.

            __________________________________________________
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            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Wendy Campbell
            I ll check with the heralds, then. I m pretty sure my many times g. grandma was known for.... um..... nothing. We got her name from someone s will. Thanks!
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 29, 2006
              I'll check with the heralds, then. I'm pretty sure my
              many times g. grandma was known for.... um.....
              nothing. We got her name from someone's will.
              Thanks!

              Katherine

              --- Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote:

              > As far as I know the rules are ...
              > if the name is of historical note ANYWHERE it can't
              > be used. I had a name rejected because it was used
              > by the many times great grandmother of the current
              > Queen of England.
              >
              > Also, you can use ONE of your real names - either
              > first or last but not both. Even if they are period
              > and not found in historical note.
              >
              > That's about all I know about the naming process,
              > but then I'm not a Herald.
              >
              > Maria
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Wendy Campbell
              > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:46 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Name Was:
              > Documentation Needed?
              >
              >
              > Along these lines, I had someone tell me I
              > couldn't
              > use my many-times great grandmother's name, which
              > was
              > recorded in family records right after "period",
              > so
              > I'm assuming at least the family name was in use
              > during "period" in order for it to have been
              > passed
              > on. I was under the impression that we couldn't
              > use
              > famous people's names and arms, but others were
              > okay.
              > Could someone clarify this? It would make the
              > documentation so simple for me!
              >
              > Katherine
              >
              > > What is the name you've chosen? Perhaps some of
              > us
              > > here can help.
              > > There are also many books which are very useful
              > for
              > > documenting SCA
              > > names, and we can recommend some which your
              > local
              > > library might have
              > > if we know what culture the name you've chosen
              > is
              > > from.
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
              ... You fill out a name submission form and give it to your branch herald, along with your submission fee and documentation that the name does not fall afoul
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                Patti wrote:
                > How do I go about getting a name registered?

                You fill out a name submission form and give it to your branch herald,
                along with your submission fee and documentation that the name does not
                fall afoul of any of the Rules for Submission. (Normally, said herald
                will have assisted you in putting the name together and finding the
                documentation, but that's not actually a requirement.)

                > Where can I find what documentation is needed?

                What you need to document is that each of your name-parts was known
                before 1600 and that you've combined them in a manner consistent with
                the pre-1600 customs of some naming culture. If, for instance, you
                wanted to document "Mary Brown", you'd have to show that "Mary" (spelt
                that way) was known as a first name before 1600, in a place and among a
                people who also used "Brown" (spelt that way) as a last name, and that
                those people would've used those two names together, as in "Mary
                Brown". The heralds reviewing your submission will do something called
                "conflict checking"--making sure your name isn't too similar to anybody
                else's registered SCA name or the name of any significant figure from
                history or literature and isn't identical to your own mundane name.
                It's a good idea to have the name conflict checked before you send it
                up, if possible, since if a conflict is found the submission will be
                returned for revision.

                Documentation typically consists of citations from period documents or
                from books or articles which cite period documents. If you have a good
                branch herald, (s)he should have some sources on hand and be able to
                consult with other heralds to find any additional references that are
                needed. If you'd rather do the research yourself, you certainly can.
                Be sure to read "Choosing a Society Name: Hints for Newcomers"
                <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html> before you begin,
                to avoid common pitfalls. If you want help finding an authentic name
                but don't have a local herald to rely on, you might write to the
                Academy of St. Gabriel (after they come back from vacation)
                <http://www.s-gabriel.org/gabemail.html> to ask for their assistance.
                They aren't part of the SCA, but their reports are accepted as
                documentation.

                By the way, the Rules for Submission are available online, at
                <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>, and some additional
                guidelines are found in the College of Arms' Administrative Handbook
                <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html>. Both are public
                documents, and you are welcome to read them for yourself if you're
                interested in knowing exactly what the rules actually are. (They're
                not exactly light reading, though.)

                > And does everyone need a coat of arme?

                Not at all. In some kingdoms it's desirable to have a registered
                device before becoming armigerous, since you can get a groovy scroll
                with your arms on it if you are, and it's very useful for a fighter to
                have a recognizable device to carry on the field, but it is in any case
                up to you. You needn't bother if it's not something you care about.
                Incidentally, if you do register a device, it'll only be called "a coat
                of arms" if and when you're given an Award of Arms.

                > How can I design one that reflects my interests without repeating
                > someone elses'?

                That's another use for your branch herald. (S)he can help you find
                something you like and want to use that doesn't conflict.

                If you don't have a handy herald, you can read about the basics of
                heraldic design on the Laurel Sovereign of Arms' site
                <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/education.html> (start with the
                primer), find information on the typical heraldry of various cultures
                in the Medieval Heraldry Archive <http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/>,
                and use what you learn to make up some devices you like. It's the
                conflict checking that'll be hard; you'll definitely want to get some
                experienced herald to help you with that. (You should be able to
                contact one through your kingdom site.)


                One other note: When you write to the list with questions, it's a good
                idea to indicate your location, at least by kingdom. How things are
                done varies from one kingdom to another, and people may be able to give
                you information more specific to your circumstances if they know where
                you are. (For instance, if you lived in Ansteorra and I knew that you
                lived in Ansteorra I could point you to the submission forms for our
                kingdom and help you find the nearest qualified herald if you didn't
                have one local to you.) Get into the habit of including the info in
                your signature, and you won't have to remember to add it when you have
                a query.


                Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
              • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                ... The crux of the matter is the issue of pretension. Your persona name is intended to help you create an alternate identity for yourself, not usurp somebody
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                  Katherine wrote:
                  > I had someone tell me I couldn't use my many-times great grandmother's
                  > name, which was recorded in family records right after "period". . .I
                  > was under the impression that we couldn't use famous people's names
                  > and arms, but others were okay. Could someone clarify this?

                  The crux of the matter is the issue of pretension. Your persona name
                  is intended to help you create an alternate identity for yourself, not
                  usurp somebody else's. The names of "significant personages" are
                  protected on the principle that their names are so closely associated
                  with their identities that anyone using one of those names is,
                  essentially, claiming to be its well-known bearer. Many men named
                  Leonardo might have been born in Vinci, for instance, but if you call
                  yourself "Leonardo da Vinci", people will assume you're claiming to be
                  the painter of the Mona Lisa. If you style yourself "Alicia Bakere",
                  on the other hand, there's no reason for anyone to think you're
                  pretending to be any specific individual, since the combination isn't
                  broadly associated with one.

                  The Administrative Handbook defines "significant personages" thusly,
                  under "Protected Names"
                  <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#III_A>:
                  > Contemporary or historical personages will generally be considered
                  > significant if they appear in standard references such as an
                  > encyclopedia. The names of famous individuals who do not appear in
                  > standard references due to the age and scope of these works may also
                  > be protected on a case by case basis.

                  If your ancestress is not a historical figure, therefore, it is likely
                  that you could use her name as your Society name, provided it doesn't
                  conflict with any other protected name. Just remember that you're not
                  portraying her, but are creating a new persona of your own that happens
                  to have the same name; you are, as it were, "not _that_ Alicia Bakere."



                  Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sara L Uckelman
                  ... The best documentation will demonstrate that a particular name element was used before 1600. Documentation which shows that a name element was used before
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                    Quoth Wendy Campbell:
                    > Along these lines, I had someone tell me I couldn't
                    > use my many-times great grandmother's name, which was
                    > recorded in family records right after "period", so
                    > I'm assuming at least the family name was in use
                    > during "period" in order for it to have been passed
                    > on. I was under the impression that we couldn't use
                    > famous people's names and arms, but others were okay.
                    > Could someone clarify this? It would make the
                    > documentation so simple for me!

                    The best documentation will demonstrate that a particular
                    name element was used before 1600. Documentation which
                    shows that a name element was used before 1650 can usually
                    be used to register a name, since the assumption is that
                    it's possible that the person in question was born before
                    1600.

                    In general, you want to stay away from genealogical websites
                    when doing research on names. This is because many
                    genealogical websites do not cite their sources, so there's
                    no way to tell how authoritative they are, and because many
                    genealogists don't care about representing the names _as
                    they were found when they were used_, and so you'll often
                    find names which have been converted to modern spellings.

                    You're right that it's only the names and arms of famous,
                    well-known people that are protected; we don't protect the
                    name and arms of every single historical person.

                    Perhaps you could tell us the name you're interested in using -
                    it's *much* easier to give advice about registerability about
                    a particular name, rather than giving general advice in a vacuum.

                    -Aryanhwy


                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... This isn t quite correct. You can use both your modern given name and your modern surname, but there must be a slight difference between your SCA name and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                      Quoth "Maria":
                      > Also, you can use ONE of your real names - either first or last but not both.
                      > Even if they are period and not found in historical note.

                      This isn't quite correct. You can use both your modern given name
                      and your modern surname, but there must be a slight difference
                      between your SCA name and your modern name, they can't be identical.
                      The usual exapmle that is cited is that someone who is named <Alan
                      Miller> could register the name <Alan the Miller>, but not <Allan
                      Miller>. I had a friend a few years backed named <John Graham>, and
                      for awhile he was seriously considering registering <John de Graham>.

                      -Aryanhwy



                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... This depends on what kingdom you re in - some kingdoms require that submissions go through a warranted herald, in other kingdoms, the submitter has to send
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                        Quoth Coblaith Mhuimhneach:
                        > Patti wrote:
                        > > How do I go about getting a name registered?
                        >
                        > You fill out a name submission form and give it to your branch herald,

                        This depends on what kingdom you're in - some kingdoms require that
                        submissions go through a warranted herald, in other kingdoms, the
                        submitter has to send in their paperwork themselves. Where are you
                        located?

                        > Incidentally, if you do register a device, it'll only be called "a coat
                        > of arms" if and when you're given an Award of Arms.

                        Ah, one of those urban myths that just won't die. :) This isn't true.
                        It's your device, arms, or coat of arms, whether or not you have an
                        Award of Arms. It's different ways of saying the same thing, they do
                        not represent any difference in status or meaning.

                        -Aryanhwy




                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • Wendy Campbell
                        I was originally thinking of Katherine Stevens, but now I am looking at using the surname of Denwood, as there is a Levyne (Levin) Denwood Sr. whose daughter
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                          I was originally thinking of Katherine Stevens, but
                          now I am looking at using the surname of Denwood, as
                          there is a Levyne (Levin) Denwood Sr. whose daughter
                          Mary Denwood was born in approximately 1640. The
                          given name may change depending on what I find in my
                          mom's family tree.

                          I know what you mean about the genealogy sites. My
                          mom and dad are researching the family, and have been
                          doing it for 20 years. It has taken them that long
                          because they base their research on wills, deeds,
                          shipping and immigration records, etc. and the Civil
                          War was very hard on many original records. They have
                          identified errors on a couple of genealogy websites.
                          My dad even corrected many of the errors on one site,
                          listed his sources, and when he returned to the site,
                          the original poster of the errors had replaced all of
                          his corrections. They don't correct people anymore.

                          Katherine

                          --- Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                          > The best documentation will demonstrate that a
                          > particular
                          > name element was used before 1600. Documentation
                          > which
                          > shows that a name element was used before 1650 can
                          > usually
                          > be used to register a name, since the assumption is
                          > that
                          > it's possible that the person in question was born
                          > before
                          > 1600.
                          >
                          > In general, you want to stay away from genealogical
                          > websites
                          > when doing research on names. This is because many
                          > genealogical websites do not cite their sources, so
                          > there's
                          > no way to tell how authoritative they are, and
                          > because many
                          > genealogists don't care about representing the names
                          > _as
                          > they were found when they were used_, and so you'll
                          > often
                          > find names which have been converted to modern
                          > spellings.
                          >
                          > You're right that it's only the names and arms of
                          > famous,
                          > well-known people that are protected; we don't
                          > protect the
                          > name and arms of every single historical person.
                          >
                          > Perhaps you could tell us the name you're interested
                          > in using -
                          > it's *much* easier to give advice about
                          > registerability about
                          > a particular name, rather than giving general advice
                          > in a vacuum.
                          >
                          > -Aryanhwy
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > vita sine literis mors est
                          > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                          >


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                        • Wendy Campbell
                          Thank you. We really know nothing much about her or her daily life, but I thought it would be neat to have a family name. Katherine ...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                            Thank you. We really know nothing much about her or
                            her daily life, but I thought it would be neat to have
                            a family name.

                            Katherine

                            --- Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
                            wrote:

                            > The crux of the matter is the issue of pretension.
                            > Your persona name
                            > is intended to help you create an alternate identity
                            > for yourself, not
                            > usurp somebody else's.
                            > If your ancestress is not a historical figure,
                            > therefore, it is likely
                            > that you could use her name as your Society name,
                            > provided it doesn't
                            > conflict with any other protected name. Just
                            > remember that you're not
                            > portraying her, but are creating a new persona of
                            > your own that happens
                            > to have the same name; you are, as it were, "not
                            > _that_ Alicia Bakere."



                            __________________________________________________
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                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                          • Sara L Uckelman
                            ... The surname must be very rare, as it doesn t appear in any of my standard English surname dictionaries, nor even in any of my placename books (since
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                              Quoth Wendy Campbell:
                              > now I am looking at using the surname of Denwood, as
                              > there is a Levyne (Levin) Denwood Sr. whose daughter
                              > Mary Denwood was born in approximately 1640. The

                              The surname must be very rare, as it doesn't appear in any
                              of my standard English surname dictionaries, nor even in any
                              of my placename books (since <Denwood> was probably originally
                              a place name). I did find something useful though:

                              http://www.historyscape.org.uk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2212&tree=ruth

                              contains an excerpt from _Abstracts of Cranbrook Wills proved in the
                              Diocesan Courts of Canterbury and now preserved in Kent Archives Office,
                              Maidstone, Kent, 1396-1640_, Jules de Launay, (Kent Record Collections/
                              The Kent Archaeological Trust, 1984), will no.445, proved on 15 July 1607
                              in the Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury, volume 59, folio 42. It's the
                              will of Elizabeth Weller, dated 1606/07, and she says "All the goods
                              bequeathed to my daughter Catherine Denwood shall be sold and the cash
                              given to her children after the decease of my daughter Catherine and her
                              husband Francis Denwood." What I can't tell from this site is whether
                              this is the actual text of the will, or whether it's been converted into
                              modern English, and, if it has, whether the names have been changed at
                              all. It's certainly possible that this is the original text, and that
                              the names haven't be changed.

                              Catherine and Francis's marriage is recorded in the Kent Family History
                              Society's _Parish Registers - Vol 3, Incorporating the Mary Wigan
                              Transcripts_, http://www.kfhs.org.uk/. You might be able to contact
                              them to see if they can confirm how the name was spelled in their
                              marriage records.

                              -Aryanhwy




                              --
                              vita sine literis mors est
                              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                            • Sara L Uckelman
                              ... Definitely. My mom occassionally plays in the SCA, and when she does, she uses one grandmother s given name and the other grandmother s maiden name, both
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                                Quoth Wendy Campbell:
                                > Thank you. We really know nothing much about her or
                                > her daily life, but I thought it would be neat to have
                                > a family name.

                                Definitely. My mom occassionally plays in the SCA, and when
                                she does, she uses one grandmother's given name and the other
                                grandmother's maiden name, both of which are perfectly
                                documentable period German names, and a neat way to honor her
                                ancestors.

                                -Aryanhwy



                                --
                                vita sine literis mors est
                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                              • Wendy Campbell
                                Wow! Thanks so much for looking that up. I ll have to double check to see if we re working off original docs. Heaven knows our German ancestors had their
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                                  Wow! Thanks so much for looking that up. I'll have
                                  to double check to see if we're working off "original"
                                  docs. Heaven knows our German ancestors had their
                                  names written a million different ways over the past
                                  few hundred years.

                                  Katherine

                                  --- Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                                  > Quoth Wendy Campbell:
                                  > > now I am looking at using the surname of Denwood,
                                  > as
                                  > > there is a Levyne (Levin) Denwood Sr. whose
                                  > daughter
                                  > > Mary Denwood was born in approximately 1640. The
                                  >
                                  > The surname must be very rare, as it doesn't appear
                                  > in any
                                  > of my standard English surname dictionaries, nor
                                  > even in any
                                  > of my placename books (since <Denwood> was probably
                                  > originally
                                  > a place name). I did find something useful though:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.historyscape.org.uk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2212&tree=ruth
                                  >
                                  > contains an excerpt from _Abstracts of Cranbrook
                                  > Wills proved in the
                                  > Diocesan Courts of Canterbury and now preserved in
                                  > Kent Archives Office,
                                  > Maidstone, Kent, 1396-1640_, Jules de Launay, (Kent
                                  > Record Collections/
                                  > The Kent Archaeological Trust, 1984), will no.445,
                                  > proved on 15 July 1607
                                  > in the Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury, volume 59,
                                  > folio 42. It's the
                                  > will of Elizabeth Weller, dated 1606/07, and she
                                  > says "All the goods
                                  > bequeathed to my daughter Catherine Denwood shall be
                                  > sold and the cash
                                  > given to her children after the decease of my
                                  > daughter Catherine and her
                                  > husband Francis Denwood." What I can't tell from
                                  > this site is whether
                                  > this is the actual text of the will, or whether it's
                                  > been converted into
                                  > modern English, and, if it has, whether the names
                                  > have been changed at
                                  > all. It's certainly possible that this is the
                                  > original text, and that
                                  > the names haven't be changed.
                                  >
                                  > Catherine and Francis's marriage is recorded in the
                                  > Kent Family History
                                  > Society's _Parish Registers - Vol 3, Incorporating
                                  > the Mary Wigan
                                  > Transcripts_, http://www.kfhs.org.uk/. You might be
                                  > able to contact
                                  > them to see if they can confirm how the name was
                                  > spelled in their
                                  > marriage records.
                                  >
                                  > -Aryanhwy
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > vita sine literis mors est
                                  > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                  >


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                                • Karen Pate
                                  Okay, this I find very interesting as there just aren t many Welsh women s names documented in the records for the time period I m interested in (or any other
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                                    Okay, this I find very interesting as there just aren't many Welsh women's
                                    names documented in the records for the time period I'm interested in (or
                                    any other time period in pre-modern Welsh history, for that matter). Do I
                                    understand correctly that I can simply adapt my modern Welsh name to reflect
                                    the time period, and that will be okay?

                                    Thanks-this is all very helpful.

                                    Cym



                                    _____

                                    From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Sara L Uckelman
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 5:50 AM
                                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Name Was: Documentation Needed?



                                    Quoth "Maria":
                                    > Also, you can use ONE of your real names - either first or last but not
                                    both.
                                    > Even if they are period and not found in historical note.

                                    This isn't quite correct. You can use both your modern given name
                                    and your modern surname, but there must be a slight difference
                                    between your SCA name and your modern name, they can't be identical.
                                    The usual exapmle that is cited is that someone who is named <Alan
                                    Miller> could register the name <Alan the Miller>, but not <Allan
                                    Miller>. I had a friend a few years backed named <John Graham>, and
                                    for awhile he was seriously considering registering <John de Graham>.

                                    -Aryanhwy

                                    --
                                    vita sine literis mors est
                                    http://www.ellipsis <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/> .cx/~liana/





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                    ... Not according to the College of Arms Glossary of Terms ... Coblaith Mhuimhneach Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                                      I wrote:
                                      > Incidentally, if you do register a device, it'll only be called "a
                                      > coat of arms" if and when you're given an Award of Arms.

                                      Aryanhwy answered:
                                      > This isn't true. It's your device, arms, or coat of arms, whether or
                                      > not you have an Award of Arms. It's different ways of saying the same
                                      > thing, they do not represent any difference in status or meaning.


                                      Not according to the College of Arms' Glossary of Terms
                                      <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/coagloss.html>, which states:

                                      > A person who has not been awarded arms may register personal armory as
                                      > a device. This device will become arms when the person receives an
                                      > award, grant, or patent of arms.


                                      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                      Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                      <mailto:Coblaith@...>


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sara L Uckelman
                                      ... What period are you looking at? I may be able to recommend some places to look. ... The legal name allowance only covers the exact elements that occur in
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 30, 2006
                                        Quoth "Karen Pate":
                                        > Okay, this I find very interesting as there just aren't many Welsh women's
                                        > names documented in the records for the time period I'm interested in (or
                                        > any other time period in pre-modern Welsh history, for that matter). Do I

                                        What period are you looking at? I may be able to recommend some places to look.

                                        > understand correctly that I can simply adapt my modern Welsh name to reflect
                                        > the time period, and that will be okay?

                                        The legal name allowance only covers the exact elements that occur in your
                                        legal name, not any spelling variants of them. If you want to use a
                                        variant of your legal name, then you'll need to demonstrate that that variant
                                        existed during the SCA's period.

                                        -Aryanhwy (always good to see another Welsh woman!)

                                        --
                                        vita sine literis mors est
                                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                      • Karen Pate
                                        Early 15th century Wales. Thanks! Cym _____ From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sara L Uckelman Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 1, 2007
                                          Early 15th century Wales.

                                          Thanks!

                                          Cym



                                          _____

                                          From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of Sara L Uckelman
                                          Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:59 PM
                                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Name Was: Documentation Needed?



                                          Quoth "Karen Pate":
                                          > Okay, this I find very interesting as there just aren't many Welsh women's
                                          > names documented in the records for the time period I'm interested in (or
                                          > any other time period in pre-modern Welsh history, for that matter). Do I

                                          What period are you looking at? I may be able to recommend some places to
                                          look.

                                          > understand correctly that I can simply adapt my modern Welsh name to
                                          reflect
                                          > the time period, and that will be okay?

                                          The legal name allowance only covers the exact elements that occur in your
                                          legal name, not any spelling variants of them. If you want to use a
                                          variant of your legal name, then you'll need to demonstrate that that
                                          variant
                                          existed during the SCA's period.

                                          -Aryanhwy (always good to see another Welsh woman!)

                                          --
                                          vita sine literis mors est
                                          http://www.ellipsis <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/> .cx/~liana/





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Sara L Uckelman
                                          ... Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (THE person for Welsh name resources in the SCa) has written an article which covers just this period: Snapshot of a
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jan 1, 2007
                                            Quoth "Karen Pate":
                                            > Early 15th century Wales.

                                            Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (THE person for Welsh name
                                            resources in the SCa) has written an article which covers just
                                            this period:

                                            "Snapshot of a Cantref: The Names and Naming Practices in a Mawddwy
                                            Court Roll of 1415-16"
                                            http://www.heatherrosejones.com/names/welsh/mawddwy1415.html

                                            She also has an article, "Names and Naming Practices in the Anglesy
                                            Submissions of 1406", which isn't available on the web, but you
                                            can probably write to her directly about obtaining a copy:
                                            contact@...

                                            -Aryanhwy




                                            --
                                            vita sine literis mors est
                                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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