Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions

Expand Messages
  • Wendy Campbell
    Hi Somayeh, My experience is that few if any of the people I have run into put on an accent, but they do try to speak in a manner more in keeping with that of
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 21, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Somayeh,

      My experience is that few if any of the people I have
      run into put on an accent, but they do try to speak in
      a manner more in keeping with that of their persona's
      period. Much more polite, more formal, etc.

      And you might try the SCA Bards group for bard-type
      questions. They've been extremely helpful to me.

      Katherine

      --- Lady Keda <lady_makeda@...> wrote:

      > Hi there,
      >
      > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the
      > organization yet,
      > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree
      > first so I can
      > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events
      > to date, I had a
      > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any
      > guidance you guys can
      > offer!
      >
      > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share
      > some resources
      > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what
      > place (if any)
      > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all
      > roles are open to
      > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the
      > more depth I can
      > lend to my persona.
      >
      > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do
      > people generally speak
      > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid
      > mine tends to
      > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm
      > willing to work
      > on it. If my character ends up being from another
      > country - say
      > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign
      > accent? I'm from
      > Orange County, California, so my local group is
      > Gyldenholt, in the
      > Kingdom of Caid.
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
      > Kingdom of Caid
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com
    • David Roland
      Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt, I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,

        I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
        what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a name,
        device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
        your first year.

        It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
        name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something else
        as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what you
        want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
        the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It is
        very difficult to switch out.

        That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
        available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
        the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be in
        this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
        century India for example.

        So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
        information.

        :-)

        Ian the Green



        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Keda" <lady_makeda@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization
        yet,
        > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I
        can
        > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events to date, I had
        a
        > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any guidance you guys
        can
        > offer!
        >
        > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
        > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
        > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open
        to
        > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
        > lend to my persona.
        >
        > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally
        speak
        > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid mine tends to
        > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm willing to
        work
        > on it. If my character ends up being from another country - say
        > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign accent? I'm from
        > Orange County, California, so my local group is Gyldenholt, in the
        > Kingdom of Caid.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
        > Kingdom of Caid
        >
      • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
        ... Greetings, and welcome to the list! Most people who try to fake an accent sound comical rather than authentic. My advice to you is, don t try it unless
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          On Thursday 21 December 2006 17:28, Lady Keda wrote:
          > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents.  Do people generally speak
          > with English accents at meetings/events?

          Greetings, and welcome to the list!

          Most people who try to fake an accent sound comical rather than authentic.
          My advice to you is, don't try it unless you're an expert or you are
          intentionally going "over the top" for humor effect (as we all do on
          occasion).

          Remember that *to* your persona, your persona doesn't sound accented. Nor
          does she sound accented to others of the same culture. So speaking plain
          English simulates how others of your persona's culture would hear your
          persona speaking. :-) In other words, your persona wouldn't be trying
          to acquire a particular accent...she would just speak naturally.

          Many people in the SCA like to enhance the mood by speaking "forsoothly",
          but that can be done without any attempt at an English (or other) accent.
          Some basic pointers for speaking forsoothly:

          1. Slow down and speak a bit more carefully than usual, especially when
          addressing a crowd (i.e., field or court heraldry).

          2. Avoid overtly modern words like "computer", "cell phone", "freeway",
          "television", "sneakers", "kids", and "Twinkies". Substitute older
          words where appropriate (e.g., "children" instead of "kids") or try
          to avoid the topic altogether (e.g., "television").

          3. Avoid contractions. They did have them in the Middle Ages, but they
          weren't the same as most of our modern ones. Say "let us go" instead
          of "let's go", for example, and "it is time for feast" instead of
          "it's time for feast"....and so on.

          4. Address people as "M'Lord" or "M'Lady", or "My Lord" or My Lady",
          or other appropriate titles, or "{title} {name}" if you know their
          name and title (e.g., "Baroness Zwygnyth, may I offer you a seat?").

          If you do *nothing* other than the above four things, you will have already
          accomplished most of what people do when they speak forsoothly. You may not
          sound like a seasoned SCA veteran, but you will definitely fit in as well
          as most members! :-)

          As you gain skill, consider:

          5. Try using period-sounding euphemisms for modern things when there is no
          alternative to mentioning the modern thing. There are some that are
          generic, such as "my carriage" instead of "my Chevy", but the SCA also has
          invented a few of its own, such as "farspeaker" instead of "telephone".
          The SCA-specific ones vary from locale to locale, so learn them gradually
          in your own area. It's also perfectly fine to invent your own -- sometimes
          you can pick a fairly obvious word that everyone will understand.

          6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
          use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
          source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
          you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble. :-)

          7. Play with phrasing to make your speech sound a bit more courtly, bearing in
          mind that your persona is of noble family lineage even if you have not yet
          been given a title in the SCA. As with the archaic words, this takes some
          practice. Examples:

          INSTEAD OF: Would anyone like to play chess with me?
          TRY SAYING: Perhaps a noble lord or lady among you would care for a game
          of chess?

          INSTEAD OF: Wow! That's a really amazing Tudor outfit, M'Lord!
          Did you make it?
          TRY SAYING: Good M'Lord, I am most impressed with the finery you wear!
          What tailor created such splendor?

          INSTEAD OF: Hey, everyone! Please gather in the main hall for feast!
          TRY SAYING: OYEZ! OYEZ! Good gentles, please make haste to join us
          in the Great Hall that we may feast together!

          ...and so on.

          The important "take away" from what I've listed above is that you don't have
          to have any specialized accent or know a foreign language to sound much more
          courtly than any of us would when using our normal speech. Start out with the
          easy things, and grow into the others. Remember the 80/20 rule: You can get
          80% of the forsoothness with 20% of the effort, if you are careful about which
          20% you pick to learn. :-) Start with just being a bit more formal and polite
          than you are in the modern world, and avoiding modern words, and you will be
          well on your way.

          Above all else....Have fun! No one is grading you on this, and there is *not*
          a quiz later. :-)

          Justin

          --
          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
          keys fesswise reversed sable.

          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
          ... Oh, by the way... Oyez! is pronounced oy-YAY! and not oy-YEZZ . It s French, and means basically Hear [me]! or, idiomatically, Attention please!
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            On Friday 22 December 2006 09:49, Iustinos Tekton called Justin wrote:
            >    TRY SAYING:  OYEZ! OYEZ! Good gentles, please make haste to join us
            >                 in the Great Hall that we may feast together!
            >

            Oh, by the way...

            "Oyez!" is pronounced "oy-YAY!" and not "oy-YEZZ". It's French, and
            means basically "Hear [me]!" or, idiomatically, "Attention please!"
            You'll hear this used a lot by court and field heralds.

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
            keys fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
          • Kyla
            Actually, while the SCA uses the words bard and bardic as humpty dumpty terms to mean whatever they want them to mean, bard is a very specific historical term
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Actually, while the SCA uses the words bard and bardic as humpty dumpty
              terms to mean whatever they want them to mean, bard is a very specific
              historical term meaning Irish harp player. In medieval Ireland, this person
              could be male or female, and was usually blind. A bard did not sing - the
              person who declaimed over the harp music was the olagh (o-laugh). (Irish,
              remember, spelling is optional.)

              Bards frequently wrote their own tunes, and tried to fit the feel of the
              tune to the epic poem the olagh was declaiming. Having the bard combine
              playing with singing came much later. Turlough O'Carolan, the last 'great'
              Irish harper, was considered great for the tunes he wrote, not for his
              playing, which was mediocre at best. He also wrote words to all of his
              tunes, but they were so unmemorable that only a few fragments survive.
              O'Carolan, by the way, is post SCA period.

              As far as SCA bards are concerned, being a relative newby myself, I don't
              really know much, except that they seem mostly to only appear around
              feast-time.

              Kyla

              -----Original Message-----
              From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
              Behalf Of David Roland
              Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:00 AM
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Couple of Questions


              Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,

              I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
              what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a name,
              device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
              your first year.

              It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
              name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something else
              as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what you
              want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
              the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It is
              very difficult to switch out.

              That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
              available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
              the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be in
              this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
              century India for example.

              So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
              information.

              :-)

              Ian the Green

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Keda" <lady_makeda@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi there,
              >
              > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization
              yet,
              > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I
              can
              > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events to date, I had
              a
              > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any guidance you guys
              can
              > offer!
              >
              > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
              > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
              > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open
              to
              > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
              > lend to my persona.
              >
              > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally
              speak
              > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid mine tends to
              > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm willing to
              work
              > on it. If my character ends up being from another country - say
              > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign accent? I'm from
              > Orange County, California, so my local group is Gyldenholt, in the
              > Kingdom of Caid.
              >
              > Thank you,
              > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
              > Kingdom of Caid
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kimiko Small
              ... Just a word of warning, never use thee to a King or one of higher station than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven t done this in the SCA, but in
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
                > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.


                Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                learning the distinctions.


                Joane Silvertoppe
                B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
              • Karen Pate
                Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! Thee / Thou and all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have since
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and
                  all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have
                  since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still
                  have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty
                  would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King
                  James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an
                  appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                  stood for the sound "th".



                  I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid-newcomer!!!!!

                  :-)Cym



                  _____

                  From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Kimiko Small
                  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                  At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                  >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL
                  to
                  > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                  > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                  > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                  Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                  than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                  in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                  the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                  chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                  years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                  Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                  But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                  would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                  learning the distinctions.

                  Joane Silvertoppe
                  B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                  A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                  http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html>
                  com/warderobe.html





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                  ... Is it the same as the thorn symbol, or different? Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                    > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                    > stood for the sound "th".  

                    Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                    Justin

                    --
                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                    Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                    keys fesswise reversed sable.

                    Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                  • Wendy Campbell
                    LOL! We (meaning SCA bards as in musicians, story-tellers, singers, entertainers, etc.) also tend to appear around campfires, A&S (arts and sciences)
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      LOL! We (meaning SCA bards as in musicians,
                      story-tellers, singers, entertainers, etc.) also tend
                      to appear around campfires, A&S (arts and sciences)
                      competitions, wars, and pretty much anywhere there is
                      free stuff to mooch, IIRC. At least, that has been my
                      experience playing in my local Barony. The folks here
                      are very generous with goodies as a tribute / payment,
                      and I haven't been to an event yet where there wasn't
                      some group singing, telling stories, playing music,
                      etc. at some point during the event. Not that I've
                      been to EVERY event........ Just my $.02 worth.

                      We are playing dance music at the Masked Ball in
                      February, then at Estrella and the Baronial A&S, and
                      we played at Feast of Fools in November. IMO, I think
                      a lot of it depends on how many musical / entertainer
                      folks you have and their particular styles.

                      Katherine

                      --- Kyla <skycat@...> wrote:

                      > As far as SCA bards are concerned, being a relative
                      > newby myself, I don't
                      > really know much, except that they seem mostly to
                      > only appear around
                      > feast-time.
                      >
                      > Kyla
                      >

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... It s the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was often drawn in such a way that it looks like a . -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Quoth Iustinos Tekton called Justin:
                        > On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                        > > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                        > > stood for the sound "th". =C2=A0
                        >
                        > Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                        It's the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was
                        often drawn in such a way that it looks like a <y>.

                        -Aryanhwy


                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • Karen Pate
                        Yes. Cym _____ From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Iustinos Tekton called Justin Sent: Friday, December 22,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes.

                          Cym



                          _____

                          From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                          Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:08 PM
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                          On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                          > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                          > stood for the sound "th".

                          Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                          Justin

                          --
                          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                          keys fesswise reversed sable.

                          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/
                          <http://4th.com/sca/justin/> sca/justin/
                          justin@... <mailto:justin%404th.com> PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/
                          <http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey> keys/justin.pubkey





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/21/2006 6:44:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lady_makeda@yahoo.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 12/21/2006 6:44:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            lady_makeda@... writes:

                            <<I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization yet,
                            as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I can
                            settle on a name.>>

                            Just so you know, you do not have to have an accurate medieval name to use
                            at your first event. It's perfectly acceptable to use either your modern name
                            or something that sounds medieval for a while; it can just be a bit
                            difficult to get people to change the name they call you when you do settle on one.
                            It's possible, though; I changed my name after 8 years.

                            <<First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
                            for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
                            women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open to
                            both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
                            lend to my persona. >>

                            I know there was a 12th century French woman who wrote a number of stories
                            and poems Marie de France, I think.

                            <<Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally speak
                            with English accents at meetings/events?>>

                            Rarely, in my experience. I know a few people who do so on a regular basis,
                            but most of us just speak they way we normally do.

                            Brangwayna Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster, PA



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Elizabeth Cember
                            Does it go as follows? Nominative= thou, thou art... Accusative= thee, I would do it for thee. Genitive= thine, give me leave to speak to thee and thine
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Does it go as follows?
                              Nominative= thou, "thou art..."
                              Accusative= thee, "I would do it for thee."
                              Genitive= thine, "give me leave to speak to thee and thine"
                              We don't have any other cases in English, do we? We just use the accusative for the dative and ablative, right?

                              Elspeth

                              "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                              I woke and saw that life was duty,
                              I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                              -- Rabinranath Tagore

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Karen Pate <cym.lloyd@...>
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:55:55 PM
                              Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions













                              Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and

                              all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have

                              since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still

                              have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty

                              would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King

                              James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an

                              appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that

                              stood for the sound "th".



                              I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid- newcomer! !!!!



                              :-)Cym



                              _____



                              From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

                              Behalf Of Kimiko Small

                              Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM

                              To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                              At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

                              >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL

                              to

                              > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good

                              > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest

                              > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.



                              Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station

                              than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but

                              in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in

                              the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt

                              chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many

                              years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".



                              Thankfully, said King is now a friend.



                              But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they

                              would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate

                              learning the distinctions.



                              Joane Silvertoppe

                              B. Nordwache, K. Caid

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

                              mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA

                              A Gentlewoman' s Warderobe Accounts

                              http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1 com/warderobe. html>

                              com/warderobe. html



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














                              <!--

                              #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                              #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                              #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                              #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                              #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                              #ygrp-text{
                              font-family:Georgia;
                              }
                              #ygrp-text p{
                              margin:0 0 1em 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                              font-family:Arial;
                              clear:both;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vitnav{
                              padding-top:10px;
                              font-family:Verdana;
                              font-size:77%;
                              margin:0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vitnav a{
                              padding:0 1px;
                              }
                              #ygrp-actbar{
                              clear:both;
                              margin:25px 0;
                              white-space:nowrap;
                              color:#666;
                              text-align:right;
                              }
                              #ygrp-actbar .left{
                              float:left;
                              white-space:nowrap;
                              }
                              .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                              #ygrp-grft{
                              font-family:Verdana;
                              font-size:77%;
                              padding:15px 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-ft{
                              font-family:verdana;
                              font-size:77%;
                              border-top:1px solid #666;
                              padding:5px 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                              padding-bottom:10px;
                              }

                              #ygrp-vital{
                              background-color:#e0ecee;
                              margin-bottom:20px;
                              padding:2px 0 8px 8px;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                              font-size:77%;
                              font-family:Verdana;
                              font-weight:bold;
                              color:#333;
                              text-transform:uppercase;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital ul{
                              padding:0;
                              margin:2px 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital ul li{
                              list-style-type:none;
                              clear:both;
                              border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                              font-weight:bold;
                              color:#ff7900;
                              float:right;
                              width:2em;
                              text-align:right;
                              padding-right:.5em;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                              font-weight:bold;
                              }
                              #ygrp-vital a {
                              text-decoration:none;
                              }

                              #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                              text-decoration:underline;
                              }

                              #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                              color:#999;
                              font-size:77%;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                              padding:6px 13px;
                              background-color:#e0ecee;
                              margin-bottom:20px;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                              padding:0 0 0 8px;
                              margin:0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                              list-style-type:square;
                              padding:6px 0;
                              font-size:77%;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                              text-decoration:none;
                              font-size:130%;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor #nc {
                              background-color:#eee;
                              margin-bottom:20px;
                              padding:0 8px;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                              padding:8px 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                              font-family:Arial;
                              font-weight:bold;
                              color:#628c2a;
                              font-size:100%;
                              line-height:122%;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                              text-decoration:none;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                              text-decoration:underline;
                              }
                              #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                              margin:0;
                              }
                              o {font-size:0;}
                              .MsoNormal {
                              margin:0 0 0 0;
                              }
                              #ygrp-text tt{
                              font-size:120%;
                              }
                              blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                              .replbq {margin:4;}
                              -->







                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jonas Poore
                              You know I keep hearing things like this that lead me to believe that while most in the nobility are good people like you and me that are playing a part,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                You know I keep hearing things like this that lead me to believe that while most in the nobility are good people like you and me that are playing a part, OTHERS get way too deep into their roles and somhow believe and act like they are my actual betters. While I respect my elders and especially somone else who has done a great deal more work than myself in the same activity i participate in, I will not suffer a tounge lashing from anyone for a simple mistake. Even though it may be a simple correction in their mind and in their point of view I expect, even though I do not sit at royalty's table or eat the same at feast, to recieve a simple and basic amount of respect as an individual deserves. While I will accept corrections especially from an elder I will not stand idle as I or another of my company recieve a "TOUNGE LASHING". Now perhaps this means somthing different to you than it does me but such a thing as putting a person in their place (without a good deal of
                                cause) is unacceptable in my company (especially if you are a stranger). If one were to speak to me that way well I would examine what I had been doing for a moment then make an appropriate response. If one were to speak to one of my friends in such a way well, I would stand up for them vocally and without hessitation unless they were being rude. As far as my wife goes.....speak to me first and I will speak to her if I believe she was out of line (the same goes for my kids). I see this "I'm better than you because......" attitude being talked about a lot on the forums and it disturbes me. Just because you can swing a stick faster than me means nothing as far as respect goes. Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.

                                Jonas----Respect and ettiquete are the glue and lubricant of society, without them somone will eventually kill you for little more reason than you have somthing they want.

                                Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                                At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
                                > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                                > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                                > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                                Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                                than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                                in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                                the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                                chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                                years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                                Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                                But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                                would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                                learning the distinctions.

                                Joane Silvertoppe
                                B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html





                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                http://mail.yahoo.com

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jonas Poore
                                German (deutsche) has 8 cases. Now aske me how many of them I remember. Jonas (auf deutsche ist Jonas :-P) Elizabeth Cember wrote:
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  German (deutsche) has 8 cases. Now aske me how many of them I remember.

                                  Jonas (auf deutsche ist Jonas :-P)

                                  Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
                                  Does it go as follows?
                                  Nominative= thou, "thou art..."
                                  Accusative= thee, "I would do it for thee."
                                  Genitive= thine, "give me leave to speak to thee and thine"
                                  We don't have any other cases in English, do we? We just use the accusative for the dative and ablative, right?

                                  Elspeth

                                  "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                                  I woke and saw that life was duty,
                                  I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                                  -- Rabinranath Tagore

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Karen Pate <cym.lloyd@...>
                                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:55:55 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions

                                  Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and

                                  all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have

                                  since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still

                                  have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty

                                  would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King

                                  James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an

                                  appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that

                                  stood for the sound "th".

                                  I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid- newcomer! !!!!

                                  :-)Cym

                                  _____

                                  From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

                                  Behalf Of Kimiko Small

                                  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM

                                  To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions

                                  At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

                                  >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL

                                  to

                                  > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good

                                  > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest

                                  > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                                  Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station

                                  than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but

                                  in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in

                                  the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt

                                  chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many

                                  years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                                  Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                                  But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they

                                  would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate

                                  learning the distinctions.

                                  Joane Silvertoppe

                                  B. Nordwache, K. Caid

                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

                                  mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA

                                  A Gentlewoman' s Warderobe Accounts

                                  http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1 com/warderobe. html>

                                  com/warderobe. html

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  <!--

                                  #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                                  #ygrp-text{
                                  font-family:Georgia;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-text p{
                                  margin:0 0 1em 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                  font-family:Arial;
                                  clear:both;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vitnav{
                                  padding-top:10px;
                                  font-family:Verdana;
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  margin:0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                  padding:0 1px;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-actbar{
                                  clear:both;
                                  margin:25px 0;
                                  white-space:nowrap;
                                  color:#666;
                                  text-align:right;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                  float:left;
                                  white-space:nowrap;
                                  }
                                  .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                                  #ygrp-grft{
                                  font-family:Verdana;
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  padding:15px 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-ft{
                                  font-family:verdana;
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  border-top:1px solid #666;
                                  padding:5px 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                  padding-bottom:10px;
                                  }

                                  #ygrp-vital{
                                  background-color:#e0ecee;
                                  margin-bottom:20px;
                                  padding:2px 0 8px 8px;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  font-family:Verdana;
                                  font-weight:bold;
                                  color:#333;
                                  text-transform:uppercase;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital ul{
                                  padding:0;
                                  margin:2px 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                  list-style-type:none;
                                  clear:both;
                                  border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                  font-weight:bold;
                                  color:#ff7900;
                                  float:right;
                                  width:2em;
                                  text-align:right;
                                  padding-right:.5em;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                  font-weight:bold;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-vital a {
                                  text-decoration:none;
                                  }

                                  #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                  text-decoration:underline;
                                  }

                                  #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                  color:#999;
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                  padding:6px 13px;
                                  background-color:#e0ecee;
                                  margin-bottom:20px;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                  padding:0 0 0 8px;
                                  margin:0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                  list-style-type:square;
                                  padding:6px 0;
                                  font-size:77%;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                  text-decoration:none;
                                  font-size:130%;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor #nc {
                                  background-color:#eee;
                                  margin-bottom:20px;
                                  padding:0 8px;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                  padding:8px 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                  font-family:Arial;
                                  font-weight:bold;
                                  color:#628c2a;
                                  font-size:100%;
                                  line-height:122%;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                  text-decoration:none;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                  text-decoration:underline;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                  margin:0;
                                  }
                                  o {font-size:0;}
                                  .MsoNormal {
                                  margin:0 0 0 0;
                                  }
                                  #ygrp-text tt{
                                  font-size:120%;
                                  }
                                  blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                                  .replbq {margin:4;}
                                  -->

                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Kimiko Small
                                  ... Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I appreciate and support your view. As I pointed out in my original posting, it
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    At 09:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                    >Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                    > Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a
                                    > respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your
                                    > comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.


                                    Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I
                                    appreciate and support your view.

                                    As I pointed out in my original posting, it was not in the SCA that this
                                    was done, but at a different type of gathering. While I didn't appreciate
                                    it at the time, we did become friends over time and understanding of his
                                    role (he's been King for two decades now), and how he views things. I have
                                    yet to meet anyone in my short time with the SCA who has ever been rude to
                                    me, royal hat or otherwise. I just shared my story to save anyone else from
                                    embarrassment from improper uses of a word style we are no longer used to
                                    using.

                                    I just do not want people to think this happened in the SCA, at least not
                                    to me. And I am sorry if that was the impression that came across.


                                    Joane Silvertoppe
                                    B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                    A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                    http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
                                  • Kimiko Small
                                    ... Someday, you all have to meet an old friend of mine, Liam, who is a modern day Olagh, and sometimes performs with a harper, who actually is visually
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 11:00 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                      >A bard did not sing - the
                                      >person who declaimed over the harp music was the olagh (o-laugh). (Irish,
                                      >remember, spelling is optional.)


                                      Someday, you all have to meet an old friend of mine, Liam, who is a modern
                                      day Olagh, and sometimes performs with a harper, who actually is visually
                                      impared (not quite blind). He lives in Northern California, sometimes
                                      performs at pubs, has written lots of epic poems which he recited and sells
                                      (he wrote a couple for me), and I would love to get him involved in the SCA
                                      if he ever had the time for it.

                                      Joane
                                    • Kimiko Small
                                      Thank you Cym for sharing this with me. I appreciate your info, and now understand what I did incorrectly. Joane
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thank you Cym for sharing this with me. I appreciate your info, and now
                                        understand what I did incorrectly.

                                        Joane


                                        At 12:55 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                        >Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and
                                        >all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have
                                        >since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still
                                        >have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty
                                        >would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King
                                        >James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an
                                        >appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                                        >stood for the sound "th".
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid-newcomer!!!!!
                                        >
                                        >:-)Cym
                                      • Lady Keda
                                        Thank you for the replies, everyone. It s been very helpful! Ian, thank you for the advice about holding off on a name and persona. I m going to put it off
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thank you for the replies, everyone. It's been very helpful!

                                          Ian, thank you for the advice about holding off on a name and
                                          persona. I'm going to put it off until I've had a chance to "play
                                          in the world" a bit. You mentioned that a persona name is very
                                          difficult to change, is it as difficult to go from a Mundane name to
                                          a persona name?

                                          I've done a bit of research on bards in Persia, Ireland and
                                          Brittain. I haven't quite narrowed down whether I want my persona
                                          to be European or Middle Eastern, so I guess for now, "where"
                                          and "when" remains a mystery. I plan on going through the resources
                                          suggested by others in response to my original email. I'm very
                                          grateful for the help.

                                          Thanks everyone,
                                          Somayeh of Gyldenholt
                                          Kingdom of Caid



                                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,
                                          >
                                          > I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
                                          > what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a
                                          name,
                                          > device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
                                          > your first year.
                                          >
                                          > It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
                                          > name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something
                                          else
                                          > as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what
                                          you
                                          > want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
                                          > the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It
                                          is
                                          > very difficult to switch out.
                                          >
                                          > That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
                                          > available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
                                          > the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be
                                          in
                                          > this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
                                          > century India for example.
                                          >
                                          > So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
                                          > information.
                                          >
                                          > :-)
                                          >
                                          > Ian the Green
                                          >
                                        • Jonas Poore
                                          I appreciate the clarrification. I have also not had anyone in the SCA be rude to me in a direct sense as I have had little interaction wih other SCA members.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I appreciate the clarrification. I have also not had anyone in the SCA be rude to me in a direct sense as I have had little interaction wih other SCA members. My concern is that somtimes I seem to pick up on a sort of apprehension/fear of "royalty" and that makes me wonder what is causing it. This leads me to believe that "some" (a very small number) of the posts I read that bring up this apprehension/fear may be based in actual experience (even if it is second handed). Also even if such experiences are few and far between should, in a educational group like the SCA which is open to all, there be such a feeling or even a rumor (even if it is not based in truth) of such happenings. I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                            Jonas.

                                            Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                                            At 09:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                            >Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                            > Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a
                                            > respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your
                                            > comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.

                                            Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I
                                            appreciate and support your view.

                                            As I pointed out in my original posting, it was not in the SCA that this
                                            was done, but at a different type of gathering. While I didn't appreciate
                                            it at the time, we did become friends over time and understanding of his
                                            role (he's been King for two decades now), and how he views things. I have
                                            yet to meet anyone in my short time with the SCA who has ever been rude to
                                            me, royal hat or otherwise. I just shared my story to save anyone else from
                                            embarrassment from improper uses of a word style we are no longer used to
                                            using.

                                            I just do not want people to think this happened in the SCA, at least not
                                            to me. And I am sorry if that was the impression that came across.

                                            Joane Silvertoppe
                                            B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                            mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                            A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                            http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html





                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Sara L Uckelman
                                            ... Actually, that s not true. It s very easy to get your persona name changed, if you want to change it. It just takes a month or two, maybe a bit more for
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Quoth "Lady Keda":
                                              > in the world" a bit. You mentioned that a persona name is very
                                              > difficult to change,

                                              Actually, that's not true. It's very easy to get your persona
                                              name changed, if you want to change it. It just takes a month or
                                              two, maybe a bit more for some really stubborn or forgetful
                                              people :), of telling people "I've changed my name to <Y>, please
                                              use this name instead."

                                              Here's a good article about someone's experiences in changing her
                                              name:

                                              "The Tale of Tangwystyl
                                              or It's Your Name and You Can Change If You Want To"
                                              http://www.heatherrosejones.com/simplearticles/taleoftangwystyl.html

                                              > is it as difficult to go from a Mundane name to a persona name?

                                              Neither are really all that difficult, if you don't mind reminding
                                              people who slip up what your current name is.

                                              -Aryanhwy (aka Sara, Aeronwy, Crierwy, and Euronui)


                                              --
                                              vita sine literis mors est
                                              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                              ... Thanks! Very informative posts, by the way. :-) Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On Friday 22 December 2006 17:52, Sara L Uckelman wrote:
                                                > > Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?
                                                >
                                                > It's the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was
                                                > often drawn in such a way that it looks like a <y>.

                                                Thanks! Very informative posts, by the way. :-)

                                                Justin

                                                --
                                                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                ... Thanks for a very informative post! I find languages in general very interesting, and welcomed the opportunity to learn something new. Justin --
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On Friday 22 December 2006 18:10, Karen Pate wrote:
                                                  > Yes.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cym

                                                  Thanks for a very informative post! I find languages in general very
                                                  interesting, and welcomed the opportunity to learn something new.

                                                  Justin

                                                  --
                                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                  ... Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and at least 20,000 participants who aren t official members. If you put 50,000 people in
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On Saturday 23 December 2006 03:17, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                    > I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political
                                                    > in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                                    Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and
                                                    at least 20,000 participants who aren't official members. If you put
                                                    50,000 people in any group, and 98% of them are great folks, that still
                                                    leaves 1,000 blathering idiots who are rude (or worse) to others. That 98%
                                                    is a lot better percentage IMO than you'll find in the world at large,
                                                    though. :-)

                                                    We also are an organization where awards and recognition are given for
                                                    skill and service. Most of the time, awards are the organization's way
                                                    of publicly thanking those who've contributed a great deal of their time
                                                    and energy in a good way. Unfortunately, any time you give recognition,
                                                    you will have a few life-out-of-balance people who crave the awards for
                                                    their own sake. In my experience, these few people cause much of the
                                                    interpersonal strife in the SCA. In the modern world, these people would be
                                                    the ones who would "claw their way to the top" in politics or business --
                                                    some out of naked ambition, and some out of pathetic emotional need to
                                                    feel validated and not knowing how to achieve that goal constructively.

                                                    So, yes, the SCA has some jerks, and it has some people who behave badly
                                                    because they simply don't know how to behave well. Most of us ignore the
                                                    rude jerks and either mentor or avoid the emotionally needy award-seekers.
                                                    We spend most of our time with the other people, the vast majority of whom
                                                    are terrific folk.

                                                    There is also the fact that the SCA -- by its nature -- is a hobby that
                                                    doesn't attract mindless conforming sheep. We attract intelligent, creative,
                                                    highly energetic people. That means we have extremely high levels of talent,
                                                    but it also means we have a fair number of people with strong personalities.
                                                    Even if all parties are well-intentioned, sometimes folks with strong
                                                    personalities don't agree, and that can lead to conflict. It's the price
                                                    we pay for having the eclectic, interesting people that we do. :-)
                                                    Leading a project in the SCA can be challenging, but also extremely rewarding.

                                                    It may surprise some on this list, but I'm actually rather glad when a
                                                    newcomer makes the observation that you have made. It shows that you have
                                                    a realistic appreciation of the SCA, that we are human beings and have
                                                    our share of flaws and foibles just like any other club or hobby group.
                                                    I think it's a duty of those of us who've been around a while to be willing
                                                    to take an unflinching look at ourselves, and not paint a falsely rosey
                                                    picture for newcomers.

                                                    Overall, though, after fifteen years I still find the SCA to be a place
                                                    full of wonderful people who, for the most part, behave better than a
                                                    similar-sized random group from the modern world. So I'm staying, and I hope
                                                    you will, too. :-)

                                                    Kind regards,

                                                    Justin

                                                    --
                                                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                    Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                    keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                    Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                    justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                    ... And it would be utterly unacceptable to most of us in the SCA as well. As you point out, it is especially rude to castigate a newcomer on minute points of
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      On Saturday 23 December 2006 00:26, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                      > Even though it may be a simple correction in their mind and in their
                                                      > point of view I expect, even though I do not sit at royalty's table or
                                                      > eat the same at feast, to recieve a simple and basic amount of respect
                                                      > as an individual deserves. While I will accept corrections especially
                                                      > from an elder I will not stand idle as I or another of my company recieve
                                                      > a "TOUNGE LASHING". Now perhaps this means somthing different to you than
                                                      > it does me but such a thing as putting a person in their place (without
                                                      > a good deal of
                                                      >  cause) is unacceptable in my company (especially if you are a stranger).

                                                      And it would be utterly unacceptable to most of us in the SCA as well.
                                                      As you point out, it is especially rude to castigate a newcomer on
                                                      minute points of authenticity, because we are all expected
                                                      to be on a continuum of learning, and a beginner is not expected to be
                                                      an expert. An innocent mistake in protocol is not the same as a deliberate
                                                      insult, and should not be treated as such.

                                                      [humor mode]
                                                      One of the duties held by Peerages is to "provide wise counsel" to Their
                                                      Royal Majesties and Their Royal Highnesses. Sometimes "wise counsel" means
                                                      pulling Their Majesties aside and quietly beginning a conversation with
                                                      "Ahem...Your Majesty, that could have been handled better." The situation
                                                      you describe might be one where one of those "ahem!" conversations was
                                                      warranted, if it had happened in the SCA context. :-)
                                                      [/humor mode]

                                                      Most of our Royalty are really nice people, and very approachable when they
                                                      are not specifically being "on stage" at Court. I don't think I've ever met
                                                      an SCA King or Queen who would behave the way you describe, but I'm sure
                                                      there have been such people from time to time and I've just had the good
                                                      fortune not to interact with them. In fact, I have seen quite the opposite:
                                                      I was involved in resolving a situation where an individual behaved *extremely*
                                                      rudely toward a Queen, and Her Majesty responded with a grace and courtesy
                                                      that astounded me, for the person insulting her had by their own public actions
                                                      forfeited any right to a courteous response. I am not sure I could have held
                                                      my temper the way Her Majesty did that day.

                                                      Basic courtesy is expected of *everyone* in the SCA, from untitled newcomer
                                                      up to and including the King and Queen. Fortunately, that courtesy is
                                                      rarely forgotten, in my experience.

                                                      Kind regards,

                                                      Justin

                                                      --
                                                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                    • Jonas Poore
                                                      Thanks for the response. I like hearing the bare truth instead of the candy coated excuses some people would use to respond to a post like mine. Appreciate it.
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Thanks for the response. I like hearing the bare truth instead of the candy coated excuses some people would use to respond to a post like mine. Appreciate it.

                                                        Jonas

                                                        Iustinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                                                        On Saturday 23 December 2006 03:17, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                        > I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political
                                                        > in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                                        Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and
                                                        at least 20,000 participants who aren't official members. If you put
                                                        50,000 people in any group, and 98% of them are great folks, that still
                                                        leaves 1,000 blathering idiots who are rude (or worse) to others. That 98%
                                                        is a lot better percentage IMO than you'll find in the world at large,
                                                        though. :-)

                                                        We also are an organization where awards and recognition are given for
                                                        skill and service. Most of the time, awards are the organization's way
                                                        of publicly thanking those who've contributed a great deal of their time
                                                        and energy in a good way. Unfortunately, any time you give recognition,
                                                        you will have a few life-out-of-balance people who crave the awards for
                                                        their own sake. In my experience, these few people cause much of the
                                                        interpersonal strife in the SCA. In the modern world, these people would be
                                                        the ones who would "claw their way to the top" in politics or business --
                                                        some out of naked ambition, and some out of pathetic emotional need to
                                                        feel validated and not knowing how to achieve that goal constructively.

                                                        So, yes, the SCA has some jerks, and it has some people who behave badly
                                                        because they simply don't know how to behave well. Most of us ignore the
                                                        rude jerks and either mentor or avoid the emotionally needy award-seekers.
                                                        We spend most of our time with the other people, the vast majority of whom
                                                        are terrific folk.

                                                        There is also the fact that the SCA -- by its nature -- is a hobby that
                                                        doesn't attract mindless conforming sheep. We attract intelligent, creative,
                                                        highly energetic people. That means we have extremely high levels of talent,
                                                        but it also means we have a fair number of people with strong personalities.
                                                        Even if all parties are well-intentioned, sometimes folks with strong
                                                        personalities don't agree, and that can lead to conflict. It's the price
                                                        we pay for having the eclectic, interesting people that we do. :-)
                                                        Leading a project in the SCA can be challenging, but also extremely rewarding.

                                                        It may surprise some on this list, but I'm actually rather glad when a
                                                        newcomer makes the observation that you have made. It shows that you have
                                                        a realistic appreciation of the SCA, that we are human beings and have
                                                        our share of flaws and foibles just like any other club or hobby group.
                                                        I think it's a duty of those of us who've been around a while to be willing
                                                        to take an unflinching look at ourselves, and not paint a falsely rosey
                                                        picture for newcomers.

                                                        Overall, though, after fifteen years I still find the SCA to be a place
                                                        full of wonderful people who, for the most part, behave better than a
                                                        similar-sized random group from the modern world. So I'm staying, and I hope
                                                        you will, too. :-)

                                                        Kind regards,

                                                        Justin

                                                        --
                                                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                        Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                        keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey




                                                        __________________________________________________
                                                        Do You Yahoo!?
                                                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                        http://mail.yahoo.com

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.