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Couple of Questions

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  • Lady Keda
    Hi there, I m new to the SCA. I haven t registered with the organization yet, as I m trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I can settle on a
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 21, 2006
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      Hi there,

      I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization yet,
      as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I can
      settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events to date, I had a
      couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any guidance you guys can
      offer!

      First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
      for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
      women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open to
      both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
      lend to my persona.

      Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally speak
      with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid mine tends to
      sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm willing to work
      on it. If my character ends up being from another country - say
      France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign accent? I'm from
      Orange County, California, so my local group is Gyldenholt, in the
      Kingdom of Caid.

      Thank you,
      Somayeh of Gyldenholt
      Kingdom of Caid
    • Wendy Campbell
      Hi Somayeh, My experience is that few if any of the people I have run into put on an accent, but they do try to speak in a manner more in keeping with that of
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 21, 2006
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        Hi Somayeh,

        My experience is that few if any of the people I have
        run into put on an accent, but they do try to speak in
        a manner more in keeping with that of their persona's
        period. Much more polite, more formal, etc.

        And you might try the SCA Bards group for bard-type
        questions. They've been extremely helpful to me.

        Katherine

        --- Lady Keda <lady_makeda@...> wrote:

        > Hi there,
        >
        > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the
        > organization yet,
        > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree
        > first so I can
        > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events
        > to date, I had a
        > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any
        > guidance you guys can
        > offer!
        >
        > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share
        > some resources
        > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what
        > place (if any)
        > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all
        > roles are open to
        > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the
        > more depth I can
        > lend to my persona.
        >
        > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do
        > people generally speak
        > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid
        > mine tends to
        > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm
        > willing to work
        > on it. If my character ends up being from another
        > country - say
        > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign
        > accent? I'm from
        > Orange County, California, so my local group is
        > Gyldenholt, in the
        > Kingdom of Caid.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
        > Kingdom of Caid
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
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      • David Roland
        Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt, I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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          Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,

          I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
          what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a name,
          device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
          your first year.

          It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
          name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something else
          as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what you
          want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
          the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It is
          very difficult to switch out.

          That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
          available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
          the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be in
          this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
          century India for example.

          So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
          information.

          :-)

          Ian the Green



          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Keda" <lady_makeda@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi there,
          >
          > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization
          yet,
          > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I
          can
          > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events to date, I had
          a
          > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any guidance you guys
          can
          > offer!
          >
          > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
          > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
          > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open
          to
          > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
          > lend to my persona.
          >
          > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally
          speak
          > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid mine tends to
          > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm willing to
          work
          > on it. If my character ends up being from another country - say
          > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign accent? I'm from
          > Orange County, California, so my local group is Gyldenholt, in the
          > Kingdom of Caid.
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
          > Kingdom of Caid
          >
        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
          ... Greetings, and welcome to the list! Most people who try to fake an accent sound comical rather than authentic. My advice to you is, don t try it unless
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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            On Thursday 21 December 2006 17:28, Lady Keda wrote:
            > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents.  Do people generally speak
            > with English accents at meetings/events?

            Greetings, and welcome to the list!

            Most people who try to fake an accent sound comical rather than authentic.
            My advice to you is, don't try it unless you're an expert or you are
            intentionally going "over the top" for humor effect (as we all do on
            occasion).

            Remember that *to* your persona, your persona doesn't sound accented. Nor
            does she sound accented to others of the same culture. So speaking plain
            English simulates how others of your persona's culture would hear your
            persona speaking. :-) In other words, your persona wouldn't be trying
            to acquire a particular accent...she would just speak naturally.

            Many people in the SCA like to enhance the mood by speaking "forsoothly",
            but that can be done without any attempt at an English (or other) accent.
            Some basic pointers for speaking forsoothly:

            1. Slow down and speak a bit more carefully than usual, especially when
            addressing a crowd (i.e., field or court heraldry).

            2. Avoid overtly modern words like "computer", "cell phone", "freeway",
            "television", "sneakers", "kids", and "Twinkies". Substitute older
            words where appropriate (e.g., "children" instead of "kids") or try
            to avoid the topic altogether (e.g., "television").

            3. Avoid contractions. They did have them in the Middle Ages, but they
            weren't the same as most of our modern ones. Say "let us go" instead
            of "let's go", for example, and "it is time for feast" instead of
            "it's time for feast"....and so on.

            4. Address people as "M'Lord" or "M'Lady", or "My Lord" or My Lady",
            or other appropriate titles, or "{title} {name}" if you know their
            name and title (e.g., "Baroness Zwygnyth, may I offer you a seat?").

            If you do *nothing* other than the above four things, you will have already
            accomplished most of what people do when they speak forsoothly. You may not
            sound like a seasoned SCA veteran, but you will definitely fit in as well
            as most members! :-)

            As you gain skill, consider:

            5. Try using period-sounding euphemisms for modern things when there is no
            alternative to mentioning the modern thing. There are some that are
            generic, such as "my carriage" instead of "my Chevy", but the SCA also has
            invented a few of its own, such as "farspeaker" instead of "telephone".
            The SCA-specific ones vary from locale to locale, so learn them gradually
            in your own area. It's also perfectly fine to invent your own -- sometimes
            you can pick a fairly obvious word that everyone will understand.

            6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
            use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
            source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
            you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble. :-)

            7. Play with phrasing to make your speech sound a bit more courtly, bearing in
            mind that your persona is of noble family lineage even if you have not yet
            been given a title in the SCA. As with the archaic words, this takes some
            practice. Examples:

            INSTEAD OF: Would anyone like to play chess with me?
            TRY SAYING: Perhaps a noble lord or lady among you would care for a game
            of chess?

            INSTEAD OF: Wow! That's a really amazing Tudor outfit, M'Lord!
            Did you make it?
            TRY SAYING: Good M'Lord, I am most impressed with the finery you wear!
            What tailor created such splendor?

            INSTEAD OF: Hey, everyone! Please gather in the main hall for feast!
            TRY SAYING: OYEZ! OYEZ! Good gentles, please make haste to join us
            in the Great Hall that we may feast together!

            ...and so on.

            The important "take away" from what I've listed above is that you don't have
            to have any specialized accent or know a foreign language to sound much more
            courtly than any of us would when using our normal speech. Start out with the
            easy things, and grow into the others. Remember the 80/20 rule: You can get
            80% of the forsoothness with 20% of the effort, if you are careful about which
            20% you pick to learn. :-) Start with just being a bit more formal and polite
            than you are in the modern world, and avoiding modern words, and you will be
            well on your way.

            Above all else....Have fun! No one is grading you on this, and there is *not*
            a quiz later. :-)

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
            keys fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
          • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
            ... Oh, by the way... Oyez! is pronounced oy-YAY! and not oy-YEZZ . It s French, and means basically Hear [me]! or, idiomatically, Attention please!
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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              On Friday 22 December 2006 09:49, Iustinos Tekton called Justin wrote:
              >    TRY SAYING:  OYEZ! OYEZ! Good gentles, please make haste to join us
              >                 in the Great Hall that we may feast together!
              >

              Oh, by the way...

              "Oyez!" is pronounced "oy-YAY!" and not "oy-YEZZ". It's French, and
              means basically "Hear [me]!" or, idiomatically, "Attention please!"
              You'll hear this used a lot by court and field heralds.

              Justin

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
              keys fesswise reversed sable.

              Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
            • Kyla
              Actually, while the SCA uses the words bard and bardic as humpty dumpty terms to mean whatever they want them to mean, bard is a very specific historical term
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                Actually, while the SCA uses the words bard and bardic as humpty dumpty
                terms to mean whatever they want them to mean, bard is a very specific
                historical term meaning Irish harp player. In medieval Ireland, this person
                could be male or female, and was usually blind. A bard did not sing - the
                person who declaimed over the harp music was the olagh (o-laugh). (Irish,
                remember, spelling is optional.)

                Bards frequently wrote their own tunes, and tried to fit the feel of the
                tune to the epic poem the olagh was declaiming. Having the bard combine
                playing with singing came much later. Turlough O'Carolan, the last 'great'
                Irish harper, was considered great for the tunes he wrote, not for his
                playing, which was mediocre at best. He also wrote words to all of his
                tunes, but they were so unmemorable that only a few fragments survive.
                O'Carolan, by the way, is post SCA period.

                As far as SCA bards are concerned, being a relative newby myself, I don't
                really know much, except that they seem mostly to only appear around
                feast-time.

                Kyla

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of David Roland
                Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:00 AM
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Couple of Questions


                Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,

                I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
                what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a name,
                device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
                your first year.

                It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
                name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something else
                as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what you
                want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
                the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It is
                very difficult to switch out.

                That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
                available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
                the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be in
                this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
                century India for example.

                So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
                information.

                :-)

                Ian the Green

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Keda" <lady_makeda@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi there,
                >
                > I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization
                yet,
                > as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I
                can
                > settle on a name. As I haven't attended any events to date, I had
                a
                > couple of beginner questions. I appreciate any guidance you guys
                can
                > offer!
                >
                > First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
                > for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
                > women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open
                to
                > both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
                > lend to my persona.
                >
                > Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally
                speak
                > with English accents at meetings/events? I'm afraid mine tends to
                > sound more Australian than English at times, but I'm willing to
                work
                > on it. If my character ends up being from another country - say
                > France or Italy - should I speak with a foreign accent? I'm from
                > Orange County, California, so my local group is Gyldenholt, in the
                > Kingdom of Caid.
                >
                > Thank you,
                > Somayeh of Gyldenholt
                > Kingdom of Caid
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kimiko Small
                ... Just a word of warning, never use thee to a King or one of higher station than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven t done this in the SCA, but in
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                  At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                  >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
                  > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                  > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                  > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.


                  Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                  than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                  in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                  the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                  chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                  years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                  Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                  But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                  would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                  learning the distinctions.


                  Joane Silvertoppe
                  B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                  A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                  http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
                • Karen Pate
                  Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! Thee / Thou and all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have since
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                    Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and
                    all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have
                    since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still
                    have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty
                    would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King
                    James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an
                    appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                    stood for the sound "th".



                    I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid-newcomer!!!!!

                    :-)Cym



                    _____

                    From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Kimiko Small
                    Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                    At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                    >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL
                    to
                    > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                    > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                    > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                    Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                    than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                    in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                    the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                    chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                    years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                    Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                    But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                    would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                    learning the distinctions.

                    Joane Silvertoppe
                    B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                    A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                    http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html>
                    com/warderobe.html





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... Is it the same as the thorn symbol, or different? Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                      On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                      > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                      > stood for the sound "th".  

                      Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                    • Wendy Campbell
                      LOL! We (meaning SCA bards as in musicians, story-tellers, singers, entertainers, etc.) also tend to appear around campfires, A&S (arts and sciences)
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                        LOL! We (meaning SCA bards as in musicians,
                        story-tellers, singers, entertainers, etc.) also tend
                        to appear around campfires, A&S (arts and sciences)
                        competitions, wars, and pretty much anywhere there is
                        free stuff to mooch, IIRC. At least, that has been my
                        experience playing in my local Barony. The folks here
                        are very generous with goodies as a tribute / payment,
                        and I haven't been to an event yet where there wasn't
                        some group singing, telling stories, playing music,
                        etc. at some point during the event. Not that I've
                        been to EVERY event........ Just my $.02 worth.

                        We are playing dance music at the Masked Ball in
                        February, then at Estrella and the Baronial A&S, and
                        we played at Feast of Fools in November. IMO, I think
                        a lot of it depends on how many musical / entertainer
                        folks you have and their particular styles.

                        Katherine

                        --- Kyla <skycat@...> wrote:

                        > As far as SCA bards are concerned, being a relative
                        > newby myself, I don't
                        > really know much, except that they seem mostly to
                        > only appear around
                        > feast-time.
                        >
                        > Kyla
                        >

                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Sara L Uckelman
                        ... It s the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was often drawn in such a way that it looks like a . -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                          Quoth Iustinos Tekton called Justin:
                          > On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                          > > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                          > > stood for the sound "th". =C2=A0
                          >
                          > Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                          It's the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was
                          often drawn in such a way that it looks like a <y>.

                          -Aryanhwy


                          --
                          vita sine literis mors est
                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                        • Karen Pate
                          Yes. Cym _____ From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Iustinos Tekton called Justin Sent: Friday, December 22,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                            Yes.

                            Cym



                            _____

                            From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                            Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:08 PM
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                            On Friday 22 December 2006 15:55, Karen Pate wrote:
                            > "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                            > stood for the sound "th".

                            Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?

                            Justin

                            --
                            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                            keys fesswise reversed sable.

                            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/
                            <http://4th.com/sca/justin/> sca/justin/
                            justin@... <mailto:justin%404th.com> PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/
                            <http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey> keys/justin.pubkey





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 12/21/2006 6:44:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lady_makeda@yahoo.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                              In a message dated 12/21/2006 6:44:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              lady_makeda@... writes:

                              <<I'm new to the SCA. I haven't registered with the organization yet,
                              as I'm trying to flesh out my persona to some degree first so I can
                              settle on a name.>>

                              Just so you know, you do not have to have an accurate medieval name to use
                              at your first event. It's perfectly acceptable to use either your modern name
                              or something that sounds medieval for a while; it can just be a bit
                              difficult to get people to change the name they call you when you do settle on one.
                              It's possible, though; I changed my name after 8 years.

                              <<First of all, I was wondering if anyone could share some resources
                              for researching Medieval bards, particularly what place (if any)
                              women had in that sphere. I realize in the SCA all roles are open to
                              both genders, but the more knowledge I have, the more depth I can
                              lend to my persona. >>

                              I know there was a 12th century French woman who wrote a number of stories
                              and poems Marie de France, I think.

                              <<Secondly, I'm a bit curious about accents. Do people generally speak
                              with English accents at meetings/events?>>

                              Rarely, in my experience. I know a few people who do so on a regular basis,
                              but most of us just speak they way we normally do.

                              Brangwayna Morgan
                              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                              Lancaster, PA



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Elizabeth Cember
                              Does it go as follows? Nominative= thou, thou art... Accusative= thee, I would do it for thee. Genitive= thine, give me leave to speak to thee and thine
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                Does it go as follows?
                                Nominative= thou, "thou art..."
                                Accusative= thee, "I would do it for thee."
                                Genitive= thine, "give me leave to speak to thee and thine"
                                We don't have any other cases in English, do we? We just use the accusative for the dative and ablative, right?

                                Elspeth

                                "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                                I woke and saw that life was duty,
                                I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                                -- Rabinranath Tagore

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Karen Pate <cym.lloyd@...>
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:55:55 PM
                                Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions













                                Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and

                                all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have

                                since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still

                                have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty

                                would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King

                                James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an

                                appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that

                                stood for the sound "th".



                                I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid- newcomer! !!!!



                                :-)Cym



                                _____



                                From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

                                Behalf Of Kimiko Small

                                Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM

                                To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions



                                At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

                                >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL

                                to

                                > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good

                                > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest

                                > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.



                                Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station

                                than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but

                                in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in

                                the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt

                                chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many

                                years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".



                                Thankfully, said King is now a friend.



                                But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they

                                would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate

                                learning the distinctions.



                                Joane Silvertoppe

                                B. Nordwache, K. Caid

                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

                                mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA

                                A Gentlewoman' s Warderobe Accounts

                                http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1 com/warderobe. html>

                                com/warderobe. html



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                              • Jonas Poore
                                You know I keep hearing things like this that lead me to believe that while most in the nobility are good people like you and me that are playing a part,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                  You know I keep hearing things like this that lead me to believe that while most in the nobility are good people like you and me that are playing a part, OTHERS get way too deep into their roles and somhow believe and act like they are my actual betters. While I respect my elders and especially somone else who has done a great deal more work than myself in the same activity i participate in, I will not suffer a tounge lashing from anyone for a simple mistake. Even though it may be a simple correction in their mind and in their point of view I expect, even though I do not sit at royalty's table or eat the same at feast, to recieve a simple and basic amount of respect as an individual deserves. While I will accept corrections especially from an elder I will not stand idle as I or another of my company recieve a "TOUNGE LASHING". Now perhaps this means somthing different to you than it does me but such a thing as putting a person in their place (without a good deal of
                                  cause) is unacceptable in my company (especially if you are a stranger). If one were to speak to me that way well I would examine what I had been doing for a moment then make an appropriate response. If one were to speak to one of my friends in such a way well, I would stand up for them vocally and without hessitation unless they were being rude. As far as my wife goes.....speak to me first and I will speak to her if I believe she was out of line (the same goes for my kids). I see this "I'm better than you because......" attitude being talked about a lot on the forums and it disturbes me. Just because you can swing a stick faster than me means nothing as far as respect goes. Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                  Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.

                                  Jonas----Respect and ettiquete are the glue and lubricant of society, without them somone will eventually kill you for little more reason than you have somthing they want.

                                  Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                                  At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                  >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL to
                                  > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good
                                  > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest
                                  > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                                  Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station
                                  than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but
                                  in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in
                                  the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt
                                  chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many
                                  years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                                  Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                                  But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they
                                  would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate
                                  learning the distinctions.

                                  Joane Silvertoppe
                                  B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                  A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                  http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html





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                                • Jonas Poore
                                  German (deutsche) has 8 cases. Now aske me how many of them I remember. Jonas (auf deutsche ist Jonas :-P) Elizabeth Cember wrote:
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                    German (deutsche) has 8 cases. Now aske me how many of them I remember.

                                    Jonas (auf deutsche ist Jonas :-P)

                                    Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
                                    Does it go as follows?
                                    Nominative= thou, "thou art..."
                                    Accusative= thee, "I would do it for thee."
                                    Genitive= thine, "give me leave to speak to thee and thine"
                                    We don't have any other cases in English, do we? We just use the accusative for the dative and ablative, right?

                                    Elspeth

                                    "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                                    I woke and saw that life was duty,
                                    I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                                    -- Rabinranath Tagore

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Karen Pate <cym.lloyd@...>
                                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:55:55 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions

                                    Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and

                                    all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have

                                    since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still

                                    have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty

                                    would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King

                                    James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an

                                    appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that

                                    stood for the sound "th".

                                    I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid- newcomer! !!!!

                                    :-)Cym

                                    _____

                                    From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

                                    Behalf Of Kimiko Small

                                    Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM

                                    To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Couple of Questions

                                    At 06:49 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

                                    >6. Add archaic words such as "thee" and "thou" and "thine", but BE CAREFUL

                                    to

                                    > use them correctly. The King James version of the Bible is a pretty good

                                    > source to learn use of these words. Use sparingly and with caution, lest

                                    > you sound like a buffoon rather than a courtly noble.

                                    Just a word of warning, never use "thee" to a King or one of higher station

                                    than you, which can get you in trouble. I haven't done this in the SCA, but

                                    in my first renaissance faire event (actually a pizza party gathering) in

                                    the late 80s, to the man portraying the King, and boy did I get my butt

                                    chewed, in a royal period manner. But it stuck with me all these many

                                    years. Those of higher station are "you", as in "your majesty".

                                    Thankfully, said King is now a friend.

                                    But I still don't use thee to anyone, and am not sure when or how they

                                    would be used appropriately. If anyone can explain, I would appreciate

                                    learning the distinctions.

                                    Joane Silvertoppe

                                    B. Nordwache, K. Caid

                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

                                    mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA

                                    A Gentlewoman' s Warderobe Accounts

                                    http://www.kimiko1 <http://www.kimiko1 com/warderobe. html>

                                    com/warderobe. html

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                  • Kimiko Small
                                    ... Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I appreciate and support your view. As I pointed out in my original posting, it
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                      At 09:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                      >Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                      > Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a
                                      > respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your
                                      > comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.


                                      Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I
                                      appreciate and support your view.

                                      As I pointed out in my original posting, it was not in the SCA that this
                                      was done, but at a different type of gathering. While I didn't appreciate
                                      it at the time, we did become friends over time and understanding of his
                                      role (he's been King for two decades now), and how he views things. I have
                                      yet to meet anyone in my short time with the SCA who has ever been rude to
                                      me, royal hat or otherwise. I just shared my story to save anyone else from
                                      embarrassment from improper uses of a word style we are no longer used to
                                      using.

                                      I just do not want people to think this happened in the SCA, at least not
                                      to me. And I am sorry if that was the impression that came across.


                                      Joane Silvertoppe
                                      B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                      mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                      A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                      http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html
                                    • Kimiko Small
                                      ... Someday, you all have to meet an old friend of mine, Liam, who is a modern day Olagh, and sometimes performs with a harper, who actually is visually
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                        At 11:00 AM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                        >A bard did not sing - the
                                        >person who declaimed over the harp music was the olagh (o-laugh). (Irish,
                                        >remember, spelling is optional.)


                                        Someday, you all have to meet an old friend of mine, Liam, who is a modern
                                        day Olagh, and sometimes performs with a harper, who actually is visually
                                        impared (not quite blind). He lives in Northern California, sometimes
                                        performs at pubs, has written lots of epic poems which he recited and sells
                                        (he wrote a couple for me), and I would love to get him involved in the SCA
                                        if he ever had the time for it.

                                        Joane
                                      • Kimiko Small
                                        Thank you Cym for sharing this with me. I appreciate your info, and now understand what I did incorrectly. Joane
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                          Thank you Cym for sharing this with me. I appreciate your info, and now
                                          understand what I did incorrectly.

                                          Joane


                                          At 12:55 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                          >Ooh! Ooh! I finally get to use my history degree!!!!! "Thee"/ "Thou" and
                                          >all their derivatives are the second person, informal pronouns, which have
                                          >since dropped out of use in English. Most other European languages still
                                          >have them: "du" in German, for example. To use such a term with royalty
                                          >would be insulting-too informal and buddy-buddy. AND when reading the King
                                          >James Bible, where you see the word "ye," substitute "thee" or an
                                          >appropriate derivative form. "Y" in the Middle English was a symbol that
                                          >stood for the sound "th".
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >I finally get to be not-such-a-stupid-newcomer!!!!!
                                          >
                                          >:-)Cym
                                        • Lady Keda
                                          Thank you for the replies, everyone. It s been very helpful! Ian, thank you for the advice about holding off on a name and persona. I m going to put it off
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                                            Thank you for the replies, everyone. It's been very helpful!

                                            Ian, thank you for the advice about holding off on a name and
                                            persona. I'm going to put it off until I've had a chance to "play
                                            in the world" a bit. You mentioned that a persona name is very
                                            difficult to change, is it as difficult to go from a Mundane name to
                                            a persona name?

                                            I've done a bit of research on bards in Persia, Ireland and
                                            Brittain. I haven't quite narrowed down whether I want my persona
                                            to be European or Middle Eastern, so I guess for now, "where"
                                            and "when" remains a mystery. I plan on going through the resources
                                            suggested by others in response to my original email. I'm very
                                            grateful for the help.

                                            Thanks everyone,
                                            Somayeh of Gyldenholt
                                            Kingdom of Caid



                                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Greetings Somayeh of Gyldenholt,
                                            >
                                            > I generally recommend that people take their time and figure out
                                            > what they want their persona to be. You do NOT need to have a
                                            name,
                                            > device or persona to go to an event and I recommend you don't for
                                            > your first year.
                                            >
                                            > It is all too easy to get really interested in one thing (place,
                                            > name, persona etc.) and then realize you really like something
                                            else
                                            > as well. Take your time, relax, see what is out there and what
                                            you
                                            > want your persona to be first. Because once you do take a name in
                                            > the SCA it is about as permanent as things can be in the SCA. It
                                            is
                                            > very difficult to switch out.
                                            >
                                            > That being said there should be all sorts of information on bardic
                                            > available to you in the SCA. It depends a lot on the culture and
                                            > the time period I'm sure on how active a female was allowed to be
                                            in
                                            > this art. 15th century italian would be much different that 10th
                                            > century India for example.
                                            >
                                            > So when and where is my question so that we may help you find more
                                            > information.
                                            >
                                            > :-)
                                            >
                                            > Ian the Green
                                            >
                                          • Jonas Poore
                                            I appreciate the clarrification. I have also not had anyone in the SCA be rude to me in a direct sense as I have had little interaction wih other SCA members.
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                              I appreciate the clarrification. I have also not had anyone in the SCA be rude to me in a direct sense as I have had little interaction wih other SCA members. My concern is that somtimes I seem to pick up on a sort of apprehension/fear of "royalty" and that makes me wonder what is causing it. This leads me to believe that "some" (a very small number) of the posts I read that bring up this apprehension/fear may be based in actual experience (even if it is second handed). Also even if such experiences are few and far between should, in a educational group like the SCA which is open to all, there be such a feeling or even a rumor (even if it is not based in truth) of such happenings. I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                              Jonas.

                                              Kimiko Small <kimiko@...> wrote:
                                              At 09:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
                                              >Maybe we should think about opening up some other avenues to royality?
                                              > Well thats just my two pence and anyone who has a problem being a
                                              > respectful human being well I would rather not know you so keep your
                                              > comments to yourself. All other replies are welcome.

                                              Thank you Jonas for sharing your views on being respectful to newcomers. I
                                              appreciate and support your view.

                                              As I pointed out in my original posting, it was not in the SCA that this
                                              was done, but at a different type of gathering. While I didn't appreciate
                                              it at the time, we did become friends over time and understanding of his
                                              role (he's been King for two decades now), and how he views things. I have
                                              yet to meet anyone in my short time with the SCA who has ever been rude to
                                              me, royal hat or otherwise. I just shared my story to save anyone else from
                                              embarrassment from improper uses of a word style we are no longer used to
                                              using.

                                              I just do not want people to think this happened in the SCA, at least not
                                              to me. And I am sorry if that was the impression that came across.

                                              Joane Silvertoppe
                                              B. Nordwache, K. Caid
                                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                              mka Kimiko Small, Fresno, CA, USA
                                              A Gentlewoman's Warderobe Accounts
                                              http://www.kimiko1.com/warderobe.html





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                                            • Sara L Uckelman
                                              ... Actually, that s not true. It s very easy to get your persona name changed, if you want to change it. It just takes a month or two, maybe a bit more for
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                Quoth "Lady Keda":
                                                > in the world" a bit. You mentioned that a persona name is very
                                                > difficult to change,

                                                Actually, that's not true. It's very easy to get your persona
                                                name changed, if you want to change it. It just takes a month or
                                                two, maybe a bit more for some really stubborn or forgetful
                                                people :), of telling people "I've changed my name to <Y>, please
                                                use this name instead."

                                                Here's a good article about someone's experiences in changing her
                                                name:

                                                "The Tale of Tangwystyl
                                                or It's Your Name and You Can Change If You Want To"
                                                http://www.heatherrosejones.com/simplearticles/taleoftangwystyl.html

                                                > is it as difficult to go from a Mundane name to a persona name?

                                                Neither are really all that difficult, if you don't mind reminding
                                                people who slip up what your current name is.

                                                -Aryanhwy (aka Sara, Aeronwy, Crierwy, and Euronui)


                                                --
                                                vita sine literis mors est
                                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                ... Thanks! Very informative posts, by the way. :-) Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                  On Friday 22 December 2006 17:52, Sara L Uckelman wrote:
                                                  > > Is it the same as the "thorn" symbol, or different?
                                                  >
                                                  > It's the same; in later Middle English documents, the thorn was
                                                  > often drawn in such a way that it looks like a <y>.

                                                  Thanks! Very informative posts, by the way. :-)

                                                  Justin

                                                  --
                                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                  ... Thanks for a very informative post! I find languages in general very interesting, and welcomed the opportunity to learn something new. Justin --
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                    On Friday 22 December 2006 18:10, Karen Pate wrote:
                                                    > Yes.
                                                    >
                                                    > Cym

                                                    Thanks for a very informative post! I find languages in general very
                                                    interesting, and welcomed the opportunity to learn something new.

                                                    Justin

                                                    --
                                                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                    Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                    keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                    Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                    justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                    ... Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and at least 20,000 participants who aren t official members. If you put 50,000 people in
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                      On Saturday 23 December 2006 03:17, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                      > I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political
                                                      > in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                                      Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and
                                                      at least 20,000 participants who aren't official members. If you put
                                                      50,000 people in any group, and 98% of them are great folks, that still
                                                      leaves 1,000 blathering idiots who are rude (or worse) to others. That 98%
                                                      is a lot better percentage IMO than you'll find in the world at large,
                                                      though. :-)

                                                      We also are an organization where awards and recognition are given for
                                                      skill and service. Most of the time, awards are the organization's way
                                                      of publicly thanking those who've contributed a great deal of their time
                                                      and energy in a good way. Unfortunately, any time you give recognition,
                                                      you will have a few life-out-of-balance people who crave the awards for
                                                      their own sake. In my experience, these few people cause much of the
                                                      interpersonal strife in the SCA. In the modern world, these people would be
                                                      the ones who would "claw their way to the top" in politics or business --
                                                      some out of naked ambition, and some out of pathetic emotional need to
                                                      feel validated and not knowing how to achieve that goal constructively.

                                                      So, yes, the SCA has some jerks, and it has some people who behave badly
                                                      because they simply don't know how to behave well. Most of us ignore the
                                                      rude jerks and either mentor or avoid the emotionally needy award-seekers.
                                                      We spend most of our time with the other people, the vast majority of whom
                                                      are terrific folk.

                                                      There is also the fact that the SCA -- by its nature -- is a hobby that
                                                      doesn't attract mindless conforming sheep. We attract intelligent, creative,
                                                      highly energetic people. That means we have extremely high levels of talent,
                                                      but it also means we have a fair number of people with strong personalities.
                                                      Even if all parties are well-intentioned, sometimes folks with strong
                                                      personalities don't agree, and that can lead to conflict. It's the price
                                                      we pay for having the eclectic, interesting people that we do. :-)
                                                      Leading a project in the SCA can be challenging, but also extremely rewarding.

                                                      It may surprise some on this list, but I'm actually rather glad when a
                                                      newcomer makes the observation that you have made. It shows that you have
                                                      a realistic appreciation of the SCA, that we are human beings and have
                                                      our share of flaws and foibles just like any other club or hobby group.
                                                      I think it's a duty of those of us who've been around a while to be willing
                                                      to take an unflinching look at ourselves, and not paint a falsely rosey
                                                      picture for newcomers.

                                                      Overall, though, after fifteen years I still find the SCA to be a place
                                                      full of wonderful people who, for the most part, behave better than a
                                                      similar-sized random group from the modern world. So I'm staying, and I hope
                                                      you will, too. :-)

                                                      Kind regards,

                                                      Justin

                                                      --
                                                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                    • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                      ... And it would be utterly unacceptable to most of us in the SCA as well. As you point out, it is especially rude to castigate a newcomer on minute points of
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                        On Saturday 23 December 2006 00:26, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                        > Even though it may be a simple correction in their mind and in their
                                                        > point of view I expect, even though I do not sit at royalty's table or
                                                        > eat the same at feast, to recieve a simple and basic amount of respect
                                                        > as an individual deserves. While I will accept corrections especially
                                                        > from an elder I will not stand idle as I or another of my company recieve
                                                        > a "TOUNGE LASHING". Now perhaps this means somthing different to you than
                                                        > it does me but such a thing as putting a person in their place (without
                                                        > a good deal of
                                                        >  cause) is unacceptable in my company (especially if you are a stranger).

                                                        And it would be utterly unacceptable to most of us in the SCA as well.
                                                        As you point out, it is especially rude to castigate a newcomer on
                                                        minute points of authenticity, because we are all expected
                                                        to be on a continuum of learning, and a beginner is not expected to be
                                                        an expert. An innocent mistake in protocol is not the same as a deliberate
                                                        insult, and should not be treated as such.

                                                        [humor mode]
                                                        One of the duties held by Peerages is to "provide wise counsel" to Their
                                                        Royal Majesties and Their Royal Highnesses. Sometimes "wise counsel" means
                                                        pulling Their Majesties aside and quietly beginning a conversation with
                                                        "Ahem...Your Majesty, that could have been handled better." The situation
                                                        you describe might be one where one of those "ahem!" conversations was
                                                        warranted, if it had happened in the SCA context. :-)
                                                        [/humor mode]

                                                        Most of our Royalty are really nice people, and very approachable when they
                                                        are not specifically being "on stage" at Court. I don't think I've ever met
                                                        an SCA King or Queen who would behave the way you describe, but I'm sure
                                                        there have been such people from time to time and I've just had the good
                                                        fortune not to interact with them. In fact, I have seen quite the opposite:
                                                        I was involved in resolving a situation where an individual behaved *extremely*
                                                        rudely toward a Queen, and Her Majesty responded with a grace and courtesy
                                                        that astounded me, for the person insulting her had by their own public actions
                                                        forfeited any right to a courteous response. I am not sure I could have held
                                                        my temper the way Her Majesty did that day.

                                                        Basic courtesy is expected of *everyone* in the SCA, from untitled newcomer
                                                        up to and including the King and Queen. Fortunately, that courtesy is
                                                        rarely forgotten, in my experience.

                                                        Kind regards,

                                                        Justin

                                                        --
                                                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                        Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                        keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                      • Jonas Poore
                                                        Thanks for the response. I like hearing the bare truth instead of the candy coated excuses some people would use to respond to a post like mine. Appreciate it.
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                                                          Thanks for the response. I like hearing the bare truth instead of the candy coated excuses some people would use to respond to a post like mine. Appreciate it.

                                                          Jonas

                                                          Iustinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                                                          On Saturday 23 December 2006 03:17, Jonas Poore wrote:
                                                          > I keep seeing evidence of personal inequity and strife and even political
                                                          > in-fighing and just plain old cliqueness.

                                                          Of course you do. We are an organization with 30,000 paid members and
                                                          at least 20,000 participants who aren't official members. If you put
                                                          50,000 people in any group, and 98% of them are great folks, that still
                                                          leaves 1,000 blathering idiots who are rude (or worse) to others. That 98%
                                                          is a lot better percentage IMO than you'll find in the world at large,
                                                          though. :-)

                                                          We also are an organization where awards and recognition are given for
                                                          skill and service. Most of the time, awards are the organization's way
                                                          of publicly thanking those who've contributed a great deal of their time
                                                          and energy in a good way. Unfortunately, any time you give recognition,
                                                          you will have a few life-out-of-balance people who crave the awards for
                                                          their own sake. In my experience, these few people cause much of the
                                                          interpersonal strife in the SCA. In the modern world, these people would be
                                                          the ones who would "claw their way to the top" in politics or business --
                                                          some out of naked ambition, and some out of pathetic emotional need to
                                                          feel validated and not knowing how to achieve that goal constructively.

                                                          So, yes, the SCA has some jerks, and it has some people who behave badly
                                                          because they simply don't know how to behave well. Most of us ignore the
                                                          rude jerks and either mentor or avoid the emotionally needy award-seekers.
                                                          We spend most of our time with the other people, the vast majority of whom
                                                          are terrific folk.

                                                          There is also the fact that the SCA -- by its nature -- is a hobby that
                                                          doesn't attract mindless conforming sheep. We attract intelligent, creative,
                                                          highly energetic people. That means we have extremely high levels of talent,
                                                          but it also means we have a fair number of people with strong personalities.
                                                          Even if all parties are well-intentioned, sometimes folks with strong
                                                          personalities don't agree, and that can lead to conflict. It's the price
                                                          we pay for having the eclectic, interesting people that we do. :-)
                                                          Leading a project in the SCA can be challenging, but also extremely rewarding.

                                                          It may surprise some on this list, but I'm actually rather glad when a
                                                          newcomer makes the observation that you have made. It shows that you have
                                                          a realistic appreciation of the SCA, that we are human beings and have
                                                          our share of flaws and foibles just like any other club or hobby group.
                                                          I think it's a duty of those of us who've been around a while to be willing
                                                          to take an unflinching look at ourselves, and not paint a falsely rosey
                                                          picture for newcomers.

                                                          Overall, though, after fifteen years I still find the SCA to be a place
                                                          full of wonderful people who, for the most part, behave better than a
                                                          similar-sized random group from the modern world. So I'm staying, and I hope
                                                          you will, too. :-)

                                                          Kind regards,

                                                          Justin

                                                          --
                                                          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                          keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey




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