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using "family" heraldry (was: Howdy from the new guy..)

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  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
    ... You can t use well-known heraldic designs that belong to others. (For a time--before my time in the S.C.A.--you couldn t use any piece of heraldry that
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 14, 2006
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      jw wrote:
      > I do admit that being able to carry the crest/c.o.a/ blazon for my
      > family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for
      > me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don't want to
      > take anything for granted

      Isabel answered:
      > . . .in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.

      You can't use well-known heraldic designs that belong to others. (For
      a time--before my time in the S.C.A.--you couldn't use any piece of
      heraldry that had ever been used by anybody anywhere, but that
      restriction was problematic, so now only "significant" mundane heraldry
      is protected.) You also can't use in the Society a piece of heraldry
      that is registered to you in the mundane world (just as you can't
      register your entire, unaltered mundane name as your Society name).

      You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
      carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
      also attempt to use his name as your Society name. (That's the closest
      you'll get to "the crest/coat of arms/blazon for your family"--you can
      read about that at <http://www.s-gabriel.org/faq/realworld.html>.) In
      point of fact, your being a descendant of that person is
      irrelevant--you could also use the device of an obscure individual to
      whom you are not related.

      You might find it more satisfying, if you do track down ancestors who
      were armigerous, to use elements from one or more of their devices to
      construct a new device for yourself. If you want to do that, the
      educational articles on the Laurel Sovereign at Arms' homepage
      <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/education.html> would make a good
      place to start. Your local branch herald should be happy to help.

      By the way, while only those who've been awarded arms by their
      sovereigns can have "coats of arms", any individual in the S.C.A. can
      register a heraldic device. Doing so wouldn't mean "taking anything
      for granted", and, in fact, in some kingdoms it is preferred that an
      individual have a device at the time (s)he receives an Award of Arms,
      since kingdom policy calls for the arms being granted to be specified
      in the scroll the person is given. (That doesn't mean you can't get an
      AoA without having a device, even in those kingdoms. They have various
      means of dealing with that in place.)



      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
    • Kristine Elliott
      ... Please see #7 of the Heraldry section of http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/wrong.html . It says: 7 They stopped checking against mundane armory, so now
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 14, 2006
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        On 11/14/06, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > jw wrote:
        > > I do admit that being able to carry the crest/c.o.a/ blazon for my
        > > family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for
        > > me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don't want to
        > > take anything for granted
        >
        > Isabel answered:
        > > . . .in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.
        >
        > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
        > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
        > also attempt to use his name as your Society name. (That's the closest
        > you'll get to "the crest/coat of arms/blazon for your family"--you can
        > read about that at <http://www.s-gabriel.org/faq/realworld.html>.) In
        > point of fact, your being a descendant of that person is
        > irrelevant--you could also use the device of an obscure individual to
        > whom you are not related.

        Please see #7 of the Heraldry section of
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/wrong.html .
        It says: "7 They stopped checking against mundane armory, so now you
        can use anything you want."

        ""It is true that the SCA College of Arms no longer checks for
        conflict against any but famous non-SCA arms. But to deliberately
        search out a real coat of arms and to adopt it is, in short, theft.
        Your arms should represent you, not someone else. Independent
        invention or creation of a coat of arms which may be similar to
        non-SCA arms, however, is permissible." - Da'ud ibn Auda"

        To expand on this a bit. Mundane arms are property. The SCA College of
        Arms does not encourage the theft of property. In the English system,
        a particular "coat of arms" belongs a single person, not everyone
        descended from the original holder, not everyone with the same last
        name as the original holder. Therefore, to deliberately register in
        the SCA a device that you know is registered in a mundane heraldic
        jurisdiction is theft. The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all
        devices against all known arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so
        it is certainly POSSIBLE to register mundane arms you feel you have a
        connection with in the SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the
        arms in question are English and you are not that single person in the
        world who owns those arms. Your conscience must be your guide here.

        Scolastica
        --
        http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

        If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
        'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, use the same device that one of your ancestors carried , I should have added, presuming it s no longer in
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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          I wrote:
          > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
          > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
          > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.

          Scolastica answered:
          > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all known
          > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly POSSIBLE
          > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in the
          > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
          > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns those
          > arms.

          Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device that
          one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming it's no
          longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't encourage
          anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in period
          works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I understand
          it.


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kristine Elliott
          ... I don t know. I would assume they are owned by someone unless I know positively otherwise -- that seems to me to be the honorable way to go. Your mileage
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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            On 11/15/06, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I wrote:
            > > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
            > > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
            > > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.
            >
            > Scolastica answered:
            > > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all known
            > > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly POSSIBLE
            > > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in the
            > > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
            > > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns those
            > > arms.
            >
            > Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device that
            > one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming it's no
            > longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't encourage
            > anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in period
            > works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I understand
            > it.
            >
            > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
            > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            > Kingdom of Ansteorra
            > <mailto:Coblaith@...>

            I don't know. I would assume they are owned by someone unless I know
            positively otherwise -- that seems to me to be the honorable way to
            go. Your mileage may vary.

            Your advice to newcomers is usually excellent. I was sorry to have to
            object to this one piece.

            Scolastica

            --
            http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

            If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
            'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
          • johnwylekin
            That would be great Isabel, thank you. --jw ... not, you just posted the other day, what am I thinking....stupid customers are making me go brain dead today!)
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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              That would be great Isabel, thank you.

              --jw

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Janet <HI_it_is_me@...> wrote:
              >In guessing that you have not yet become familiar (well of course
              not, you just posted the other day, what am I thinking....stupid
              customers are making me go brain dead today!) with heraldry submission
              rules, in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.
              I'm sure you could simplify them down to meet the SCA requirements or
              you can always carry them without registering which some people have
              done. If heraldic devices are something that interests you, there is a
              great primer on the sca heralds website. I have it bookmarked on the
              home pc (at work presently), so I could get it for you later if you
              want it. They have worked out, in my opinion, a simple format with
              (sometimes) easy to follow rules for creating arms.
              > hope this helps,
              > Isabel
            • johnwylekin
              Thanks to everyone s input on the device/arms SCA regs & law. I haven t gone from top to bottom on requirements, so I appreciate the primers and everyone
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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                Thanks to everyone's input on the device/arms SCA regs & law. I
                haven't gone from top to bottom on requirements, so I appreciate the
                primers and everyone taking the time to respond to my questions.

                I'm actually excited at the prospect of creating something new,
                based on crests and coa's done in my family name. I've been in
                graphic design for over 20 years, and I think I can come up with
                something in the spirit of the family's name without ripping off
                designs directly, and at the same time make it original (and period)
                enough for SCA.

                Since my last post I've done research on crests and arms, and I am
                extremely fascinated with the well-thought out designs and the deep,
                profound meaning behind some things I simply glanced at before.
                Opens up a whole new world.

                Thanks again, everyone.

                --jw

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                >
                > I wrote:
                > > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
                > > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you
                don't
                > > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.
                >
                > Scolastica answered:
                > > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all
                known
                > > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly
                POSSIBLE
                > > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in
                the
                > > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
                > > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns
                those
                > > arms.
                >
                > Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device
                that
                > one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming
                it's no
                > longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't
                encourage
                > anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in
                period
                > works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I
                understand
                > it.
                >
                >
                > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                In a message dated 11/15/2006 10:26:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnwylekin@yahoo.com writes:
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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                  In a message dated 11/15/2006 10:26:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  johnwylekin@... writes:

                  <<I'm positve nobody in this day and age can re-enact 100%
                  accurateley. If they did, people would be falling over dead from
                  not receiving their insulin shots, an untreated burst appendix, an
                  allergy to certain materials, bankrupt from in the pursuit of
                  purchasing a full line of period items, and the list goes on, ad
                  infinitum. I think the idea of trying to get close attracts me,
                  though. I'm even thinking of learning a medieval instrument (simple
                  transversian flute, or dulcimer) so that when I'm jonesing for my
                  boombox, I have a creative alternative, and music becomes even more
                  valauble to me in the SCA persona and the real world.>>

                  John, I think you might also enjoy joining the Authentic_SCA yahoo group.
                  It's for people who are interested in pursuing a more authentic approach to
                  the SCA and learning about period alternatives to modern items. And no,
                  contrary to popular opinion, we are not a bunch of nasty Laurels who will criticize
                  your every move and make you feel inferior. We are a bunch of people of
                  varying levels of rank in the SCA, with varying degrees of knowledge about
                  period practice and how to use it in the SCA to best effect , and we're very
                  friendly.


                  Brangwayna Morgan
                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                  Lancaster, PA


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Janet
                  The Heraldic Primer (all the basics) http://sca.org/heraldry/primer/ Some more info (some stuff from the primer, plus some stuff not in the primer)
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 16, 2006
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                    The Heraldic Primer (all the basics)
                    http://sca.org/heraldry/primer/

                    Some more info (some stuff from the primer, plus some stuff not in the primer)
                    http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/lessons/index.html

                    The SCA.org Heraldry page (lots of good info)
                    http://sca.org/heraldry/welcome.html

                    I hope these help you!
                    ~Isabel
                    Legion of the Night Mare
                    Middle Kingdom

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: johnwylekin <johnwylekin@...>
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:15:26 AM
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Howdy from the new guy...
                    That would be great Isabel, thank you.
                    --jw
                    --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Janet <HI_it_is_me@ ...> wrote:
                    If heraldic devices are something that interests you, there is a
                    great primer on the sca heralds website. I have it bookmarked on the
                    home pc (at work presently), so I could get it for you later if you
                    want it. T.
                    > hope this helps,
                    > Isabel






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