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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Howdy from the new guy...

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  • Janet
    ... family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don t want to take anything for
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 14, 2006
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      >>>>>>I do admit that being able to carry the crest/c.o.a/ blazon for my
      family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for
      me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don't want to
      take anything for granted

      In guessing that you have not yet become familiar (well of course not, you just posted the other day, what am I thinking....stupid customers are making me go brain dead today!) with heraldry submission rules, in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc. I'm sure you could simplify them down to meet the SCA requirements or you can always carry them without registering which some people have done. If heraldic devices are something that interests you, there is a great primer on the sca heralds website. I have it bookmarked on the home pc (at work presently), so I could get it for you later if you want it. They have worked out, in my opinion, a simple format with (sometimes) easy to follow rules for creating arms.
      hope this helps,
      Isabel



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    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      ... You can t use well-known heraldic designs that belong to others. (For a time--before my time in the S.C.A.--you couldn t use any piece of heraldry that
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 14, 2006
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        jw wrote:
        > I do admit that being able to carry the crest/c.o.a/ blazon for my
        > family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for
        > me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don't want to
        > take anything for granted

        Isabel answered:
        > . . .in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.

        You can't use well-known heraldic designs that belong to others. (For
        a time--before my time in the S.C.A.--you couldn't use any piece of
        heraldry that had ever been used by anybody anywhere, but that
        restriction was problematic, so now only "significant" mundane heraldry
        is protected.) You also can't use in the Society a piece of heraldry
        that is registered to you in the mundane world (just as you can't
        register your entire, unaltered mundane name as your Society name).

        You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
        carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
        also attempt to use his name as your Society name. (That's the closest
        you'll get to "the crest/coat of arms/blazon for your family"--you can
        read about that at <http://www.s-gabriel.org/faq/realworld.html>.) In
        point of fact, your being a descendant of that person is
        irrelevant--you could also use the device of an obscure individual to
        whom you are not related.

        You might find it more satisfying, if you do track down ancestors who
        were armigerous, to use elements from one or more of their devices to
        construct a new device for yourself. If you want to do that, the
        educational articles on the Laurel Sovereign at Arms' homepage
        <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/education.html> would make a good
        place to start. Your local branch herald should be happy to help.

        By the way, while only those who've been awarded arms by their
        sovereigns can have "coats of arms", any individual in the S.C.A. can
        register a heraldic device. Doing so wouldn't mean "taking anything
        for granted", and, in fact, in some kingdoms it is preferred that an
        individual have a device at the time (s)he receives an Award of Arms,
        since kingdom policy calls for the arms being granted to be specified
        in the scroll the person is given. (That doesn't mean you can't get an
        AoA without having a device, even in those kingdoms. They have various
        means of dealing with that in place.)



        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      • Kristine Elliott
        ... Please see #7 of the Heraldry section of http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/wrong.html . It says: 7 They stopped checking against mundane armory, so now
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 14, 2006
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          On 11/14/06, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > jw wrote:
          > > I do admit that being able to carry the crest/c.o.a/ blazon for my
          > > family in some form or another is also a very exciting prospect for
          > > me, if my future in the SCA allows for such a thing (don't want to
          > > take anything for granted
          >
          > Isabel answered:
          > > . . .in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.
          >
          > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
          > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
          > also attempt to use his name as your Society name. (That's the closest
          > you'll get to "the crest/coat of arms/blazon for your family"--you can
          > read about that at <http://www.s-gabriel.org/faq/realworld.html>.) In
          > point of fact, your being a descendant of that person is
          > irrelevant--you could also use the device of an obscure individual to
          > whom you are not related.

          Please see #7 of the Heraldry section of
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/wrong.html .
          It says: "7 They stopped checking against mundane armory, so now you
          can use anything you want."

          ""It is true that the SCA College of Arms no longer checks for
          conflict against any but famous non-SCA arms. But to deliberately
          search out a real coat of arms and to adopt it is, in short, theft.
          Your arms should represent you, not someone else. Independent
          invention or creation of a coat of arms which may be similar to
          non-SCA arms, however, is permissible." - Da'ud ibn Auda"

          To expand on this a bit. Mundane arms are property. The SCA College of
          Arms does not encourage the theft of property. In the English system,
          a particular "coat of arms" belongs a single person, not everyone
          descended from the original holder, not everyone with the same last
          name as the original holder. Therefore, to deliberately register in
          the SCA a device that you know is registered in a mundane heraldic
          jurisdiction is theft. The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all
          devices against all known arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so
          it is certainly POSSIBLE to register mundane arms you feel you have a
          connection with in the SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the
          arms in question are English and you are not that single person in the
          world who owns those arms. Your conscience must be your guide here.

          Scolastica
          --
          http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

          If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
          'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
        • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          ... Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, use the same device that one of your ancestors carried , I should have added, presuming it s no longer in
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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            I wrote:
            > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
            > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
            > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.

            Scolastica answered:
            > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all known
            > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly POSSIBLE
            > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in the
            > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
            > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns those
            > arms.

            Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device that
            one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming it's no
            longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't encourage
            anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in period
            works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I understand
            it.


            Coblaith Mhuimhneach
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kristine Elliott
            ... I don t know. I would assume they are owned by someone unless I know positively otherwise -- that seems to me to be the honorable way to go. Your mileage
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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              On 11/15/06, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I wrote:
              > > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
              > > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you don't
              > > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.
              >
              > Scolastica answered:
              > > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all known
              > > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly POSSIBLE
              > > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in the
              > > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
              > > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns those
              > > arms.
              >
              > Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device that
              > one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming it's no
              > longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't encourage
              > anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in period
              > works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I understand
              > it.
              >
              > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
              > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              > Kingdom of Ansteorra
              > <mailto:Coblaith@...>

              I don't know. I would assume they are owned by someone unless I know
              positively otherwise -- that seems to me to be the honorable way to
              go. Your mileage may vary.

              Your advice to newcomers is usually excellent. I was sorry to have to
              object to this one piece.

              Scolastica

              --
              http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

              If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
              'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
            • johnwylekin
              That would be great Isabel, thank you. --jw ... not, you just posted the other day, what am I thinking....stupid customers are making me go brain dead today!)
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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                That would be great Isabel, thank you.

                --jw

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Janet <HI_it_is_me@...> wrote:
                >In guessing that you have not yet become familiar (well of course
                not, you just posted the other day, what am I thinking....stupid
                customers are making me go brain dead today!) with heraldry submission
                rules, in the SCA, you can't register any real world crest, arms, etc.
                I'm sure you could simplify them down to meet the SCA requirements or
                you can always carry them without registering which some people have
                done. If heraldic devices are something that interests you, there is a
                great primer on the sca heralds website. I have it bookmarked on the
                home pc (at work presently), so I could get it for you later if you
                want it. They have worked out, in my opinion, a simple format with
                (sometimes) easy to follow rules for creating arms.
                > hope this helps,
                > Isabel
              • johnwylekin
                Thanks to everyone s input on the device/arms SCA regs & law. I haven t gone from top to bottom on requirements, so I appreciate the primers and everyone
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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                  Thanks to everyone's input on the device/arms SCA regs & law. I
                  haven't gone from top to bottom on requirements, so I appreciate the
                  primers and everyone taking the time to respond to my questions.

                  I'm actually excited at the prospect of creating something new,
                  based on crests and coa's done in my family name. I've been in
                  graphic design for over 20 years, and I think I can come up with
                  something in the spirit of the family's name without ripping off
                  designs directly, and at the same time make it original (and period)
                  enough for SCA.

                  Since my last post I've done research on crests and arms, and I am
                  extremely fascinated with the well-thought out designs and the deep,
                  profound meaning behind some things I simply glanced at before.
                  Opens up a whole new world.

                  Thanks again, everyone.

                  --jw

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I wrote:
                  > > You can, however, use the same device that one of your ancestors
                  > > carried, as long as that ancestor was relatively obscure and you
                  don't
                  > > also attempt to use his name as your Society name.
                  >
                  > Scolastica answered:
                  > > The SCA College of Arms no longer checks all devices against all
                  known
                  > > arms in all known heraldic jurisdictions, so it is certainly
                  POSSIBLE
                  > > to register mundane arms you feel you have a connection with in
                  the
                  > > SCA. Nevertheless, it is still theft if the arms in question are
                  > > English and you are not that single person in the world who owns
                  those
                  > > arms.
                  >
                  > Sorry for the confusion, there. When I said, "use the same device
                  that
                  > one of your ancestors carried", I should have added, "presuming
                  it's no
                  > longer in use in the mundane world". I certainly wouldn't
                  encourage
                  > anyone to usurp the arms of another. Many devices pictured in
                  period
                  > works are, however, not currently registered to anyone, as I
                  understand
                  > it.
                  >
                  >
                  > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 11/15/2006 10:26:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnwylekin@yahoo.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 15, 2006
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                    In a message dated 11/15/2006 10:26:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    johnwylekin@... writes:

                    <<I'm positve nobody in this day and age can re-enact 100%
                    accurateley. If they did, people would be falling over dead from
                    not receiving their insulin shots, an untreated burst appendix, an
                    allergy to certain materials, bankrupt from in the pursuit of
                    purchasing a full line of period items, and the list goes on, ad
                    infinitum. I think the idea of trying to get close attracts me,
                    though. I'm even thinking of learning a medieval instrument (simple
                    transversian flute, or dulcimer) so that when I'm jonesing for my
                    boombox, I have a creative alternative, and music becomes even more
                    valauble to me in the SCA persona and the real world.>>

                    John, I think you might also enjoy joining the Authentic_SCA yahoo group.
                    It's for people who are interested in pursuing a more authentic approach to
                    the SCA and learning about period alternatives to modern items. And no,
                    contrary to popular opinion, we are not a bunch of nasty Laurels who will criticize
                    your every move and make you feel inferior. We are a bunch of people of
                    varying levels of rank in the SCA, with varying degrees of knowledge about
                    period practice and how to use it in the SCA to best effect , and we're very
                    friendly.


                    Brangwayna Morgan
                    Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                    Lancaster, PA


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Janet
                    The Heraldic Primer (all the basics) http://sca.org/heraldry/primer/ Some more info (some stuff from the primer, plus some stuff not in the primer)
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 16, 2006
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                      The Heraldic Primer (all the basics)
                      http://sca.org/heraldry/primer/

                      Some more info (some stuff from the primer, plus some stuff not in the primer)
                      http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/lessons/index.html

                      The SCA.org Heraldry page (lots of good info)
                      http://sca.org/heraldry/welcome.html

                      I hope these help you!
                      ~Isabel
                      Legion of the Night Mare
                      Middle Kingdom

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: johnwylekin <johnwylekin@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:15:26 AM
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Howdy from the new guy...
                      That would be great Isabel, thank you.
                      --jw
                      --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Janet <HI_it_is_me@ ...> wrote:
                      If heraldic devices are something that interests you, there is a
                      great primer on the sca heralds website. I have it bookmarked on the
                      home pc (at work presently), so I could get it for you later if you
                      want it. T.
                      > hope this helps,
                      > Isabel






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