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  • Selena
    Another newbie with ame questions (and please, no slapping of the palm againist the forefead) anyway..I looked up the St. Gabe s site and just have a few
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 29, 2006
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      Another newbie with ame questions (and please, no slapping of the
      palm againist the forefead) anyway..I looked up the St. Gabe's site
      and just have a few questions..ok..tenitively (sp) my husband's name
      is Giovanni di Paulo di Giovanni dello Scelto (ok, his name of his
      father of his g/father-family name..we're Florentine upper middle
      class, but originally I was going by Isabetta Lukesa di Firenze, but
      today I can't find the coming from Florence part..only the "of
      husband", can I go by di Firenze, or being married should I go by my
      husband's name, ie..Isabetta Lukesa moglie di Giovanni???
    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      ... There are two different questions you could be asking, here. I ll address them separately. 1) Can you, as a married woman participating in the SCA, use a
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 30, 2006
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        Selena wrote:
        > . . .tenitively (sp) my husband's name is Giovanni di Paulo di
        > Giovanni dello Scelto. . .we're Florentine upper middle class, but
        > originally I was going by Isabetta Lukesa di Firenze, but today I
        > can't find the coming from Florence part..only the "of husband", can I
        > go by di Firenze, or being married should I go by my husband's name,
        > ie..Isabetta Lukesa moglie di Giovanni???


        There are two different questions you could be asking, here. I'll
        address them separately.


        1) Can you, as a married woman participating in the SCA, use a
        locative byname (i.e., a second name based on a place--presumably where
        your persona originates, or some other location with which she is
        associated for some reason), or do you have to conform to documentable
        medieval practice, if that means using some form of "Giovanni's wife"
        as your second name?

        You can use any name you choose. You can _register_ and use any name
        that meets the basic standards for plausibility set forth in the Rules
        for Submission <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>. Whether it
        "matches" your persona, your husband's name, or anything else is only
        relevant if that's something that matters to you, personally.


        2) Would you, as a married upper-middle-class Florentine, have been
        likely to use a locative byname, or was it more-or-less universal
        practice for a woman to be referred to primarily as her husband's wife?

        The answer depends on WHEN you're "from" as much as where. Traditions
        change over time, and you might find that women in an earlier century
        were likelier to keep their names after marriage than women in a later
        one, or vice versa.

        I'm not a herald, but based on what's in the Academy of St. Gabriel
        archives, it seems that early in the 15th century you might have used
        the locative byname "da Firenze" (or, more likely, "la Fiorentina") if
        you didn't live in Florence, or a locative byname referring to a
        particular part of Florence if you did. Late in the 15th and in the
        16th century you might have kept the family name "Fiorentini" after
        marriage, or might have used "de Firenze" (or "la Fiorentina") as a
        description on occasion.


        Here's the evidence:

        St. Gabriel Report 3052 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/3052> says, of naming
        practices in and near Florence in the 15th and 16th century, "A woman
        might use her father's surname, her husband's surname, or both
        simultaneously. She might also be identified by her husband's full
        name, or by just his given name.. . .In some cases, where the wife's
        family was more well-known than the husband's, _he_ would take her name
        upon marriage."

        St. Gabriel Report 2744 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/2744> discusses "de
        Firenze" as a 15th-century woman's locative byname, and says, "A woman
        from Florence might have been identified as <da Firenze> or, more
        often, <la Fiorentina> 'the Florentine [woman]'." It points out that
        early in the century this would likely apply only to a woman no longer
        living in Florence, since "calling a person 'the Florentine' in
        Florence isn't a useful distinguishing characteristic", but also says
        that later in the century ". . .most people used inherited family
        names, much like modern surnames. A woman could certainly have been
        identified on some occasions as <Stefana Lucia da Firenze> or <Stefana
        Lucia la Fiorentina>, but we would normally expect to see her recorded
        with a family name. An originally-literal byname like <la Fiorentina>
        might have become fixed as an inherited family name, often in the
        simpler, gender-neutral, form <Fiorentini>. . .You could also select a
        family name and use it in addition to the identifier <da Firenze>, so a
        name like, for example <Stefana Lucia Ceri da Firenze> is also a fine
        choice, though the identifier <da Firenze> would be considered
        additional information rather than a strict part of the name, as in
        "Stefana Lucia Ceri who is from Firenze."

        St. Gabriel Report 972 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/972> offers this
        further comment: "Living within the city, you might have named
        yourself for a smaller locale like a parish or village, a hill, or the
        nearest church or city gate. <Leonora della Valle> 'Leonora of the
        Valley' would be a fine choice. Since many places in Italy were named
        for saints, a simple solution is to use some saint's name for your
        byname, e.g. <Leonarda da Sant'antonio> or <Leonora da Montigiani>
        'Leonora of [St] John's Mount'". (This is an older report; you should
        check the information with an experienced herald or the Academy before
        relying on it.)

        There are 4 other reports referring to "da FIrenze": 2550
        <http://www.s-gabriel.org/2550>, 2542 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/2542>,
        1855 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/1855>, and 1588
        <http://www.s-gabriel.org/1588>. They all seem to be about the 15th
        century, but that may simply be because the clients for whom they were
        written were all interested in that period. If you're working with
        some other period, I suggest you ask the Academy for your very own
        report <http://www.s-gabriel.org/gabemail.html>.


        Good luck!

        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      • bronwynmgn@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/27/2007 8:47:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mullberrymae@yahoo.com writes:
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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          In a message dated 6/27/2007 8:47:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          mullberrymae@... writes:

          <<I had been to the site with the 4 welsh female names and was like WHAT???
          thats ALL?? how uninhabited was Wales?? LOL but perhaps that makes it more
          plausible that a Welshman would cross a sea to capture a wife.>>

          It's not that it was uninhabited, but that the early Welsh weren't terribly
          literate and didn't have much use for written records, so those were the only
          female names that got written down.

          If you were born and raised in Ireland, you would probably have had an Irish
          name despite having a Welsh father. But if he'd taken the woman back to
          Wales and you were born and raised there, most likely you would have used a
          Welsh name. I suppose your mother might have given you an Irish nickname, but
          the name most people called you would probably have been Welsh.


          Brangwayna Morgan
          Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
          Lancaster, PA



          ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


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        • Terion
          My thinking was that my father would of named me after my mother whom died in childbirth and that my father though he stole her, did actually have affection
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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            My thinking was that my father would of named me after my mother whom died in childbirth and that my father though he stole her, did actually have affection for her.

            Mundanely Terion...for now.


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          • Terion
            Okay I had no idea finding a name would be so hard....I wanted to run this by you to see if it will work, I have put the source of the name at the bottom, and
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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              Okay I had no idea finding a name would be so hard....I wanted to run this by you to see if it will work, I have put the source of the name at the bottom, and i'm not sure about how to say daughter of and from but I would like both in there, as I'm picking a documented irish name, from a welsh father, from a place in wales...because basically I want my persona to be welsh, perhaps my Welsh father crossed the sea and captured a himself a red haired beauty......and my father would be from the Preseli Mountain area.... so..I would like something like this for my name. Also have included source info on how perhaps an irish name could of been found in Wales, from the exact area the name I chose came from...if there are any heralds out there please chime in....

              Name:

              Failend ferch Aneirin ap Mynydd Preseli

              source for Failend: 7th century Leinster woman
              taken from -- Early Medieval Ireland 400 - 1200, Daibhi O Croinin, New York: Longman, 1995, 1996.

              source of Aneirin: Aneirin - Late 6th century A.D. poet
              taken from--The Celts, T.G.E. Powell, New York: Thames and Hudson, Ltd., 1983, 1997.

              Also here is some info regarding another reason why a welsh woman may have come upon having a name of irish origin:

              "Celtic tribes in early Wales included the Demetae in the southwest, the Silures in the southeast, and the Ordovician. Irish settlements, perhaps from Leinster, appeared in northwestern Wales before 400 A.D. The Irish of Leinster may have given their name to the Llyn peninsula."
              taken from Celtic Britain, Charles Thomas, New York: Thames & Hudson, 1986, 1997.

              Well there it is..this is my 3rd try at a name!! LOL this time I'm not telling anyone until I know it will work....Legit ...

              Thanks so much
              Terion (my real name)


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            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... Unfortunately, such a name would not be registerable, since is Gaelic and the rest of the name is Welsh. As someone else said (I don t remember
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                Quoth Terion:
                > Failend ferch Aneirin ap Mynydd Preseli

                Unfortunately, such a name would not be registerable, since
                <Failend> is Gaelic and the rest of the name is Welsh.
                As someone else said (I don't remember what), if you lived in
                Ireland, you would have a wholly Irish name, and if you lived
                in Wales, you'd have a wholly Welsh name -- you wouldn't ever
                have a mix between the two.

                -Aryanhwy




                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • SidheMaiden
                Terion, In regards to Failend, http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1848+0 In regards to Aneirin,
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                  Terion,
                  In regards to Failend,
                  http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1848+0

                  In regards to Aneirin,
                  http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2127+0

                  As it was stated, the two groups may have had contact with each other, but that does not mean that they shared a naming pool.

                  Now, do you want a name that can be documented for registry? Is it important for you to have a truly period name? These are questions to think about, cause you can really have people call you whatever you want if those two things are not something you're looking for. Also remember, if you choose, say, a completely period Welsh name, that does not mean that your persona background must EXCLUDE Irish involvement [a mother from Eire]. There are plenty of people who choose a persona but dress, or have interest in, other cultures and time periods.

                  Eva [who currently has no surname]
                  Kingdom of Æthelmearc
                  Living in Unclaimed Territory

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                • Terion
                  Even with my sources that there were early Irish settlements in Wales?? And How can we say that someone wouldn t have an Irish Mother and Welsh Father and a
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                    Even with my sources that there were early Irish settlements in Wales?? And How can we say that someone wouldn't have an Irish Mother and Welsh Father and a Irish given name in tribute to the mother, we weren't there, it seems ridiculous that such stringent rules are made on pure conjecture, I mean its been said several times that early womens names are hard to come by in documents because women were not recorded as well in history as men etc, I guess I just feel that if all the parts of the name can be historically documented in use at the time, who is to say the lines NEVER got crossed...as far as I know, we've yet to invent a time machine to actually go and observe things....and yes I'm coming off a bit snippish but it's only because I have spent the last week reading and looking and searching for a name and most of the names are just hideous and so far every one that I found to like either wasn't documentable to the early period I want, or in this case said to be
                    impossible--even though there were Irish in Wales....I just don't see how something can be said to be impossible if records are so scant we are to never really know anyways....no one please take this personally I'm just getting frustrated and ready to find a name and move on...to something more fun ...like garb....

                    Failend the seriously exasperated.


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                  • Terion
                    Maybe I will just make it easy on myself and settle for Failend Bhallach it s all irish, and though I was more interested in Welsh, who s to say I didn t
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                      Maybe I will just make it easy on myself and settle for Failend Bhallach

                      it's all irish, and though I was more interested in Welsh, who's to say I didn't travel there and live my years out.... I'm just so tired of looking......

                      so maybe Failend the Freckled it will be....irish isn't all bad.... lol.


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                    • Paige
                      It s terrifically frustrating, I agree, but I will remind you of something that a Herald friend of mine told me ages and ages ago: Even in the middle ages,
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                        It's terrifically frustrating, I agree, but I will remind you of something
                        that a Herald friend of mine told me ages and ages ago:

                        Even in the middle ages, people had nicknames. So if you can't find a name
                        that isn't hideous, find one that's REALLY hideous, and use it only on
                        paper. That way, you have an excuse to use a nickname that you like--in
                        your case, maybe your Mother's name?--and no one could really blame you. I
                        don't have documentation at hand for the use of nicknames--or bynames(I
                        think that's what they're called?) but I seem to recall them as being
                        period.

                        Can anyone comment on this?

                        IS,

                        Paige

                        On 6/27/07, Terion <mullberrymae@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Even with my sources that there were early Irish settlements in Wales??
                        > And How can we say that someone wouldn't have an Irish Mother and Welsh
                        > Father and a Irish given name in tribute to the mother, we weren't there, it
                        > seems ridiculous that such stringent rules are made on pure conjecture, I
                        > mean its been said several times that early womens names are hard to come by
                        > in documents because women were not recorded as well in history as men etc,
                        > I guess I just feel that if all the parts of the name can be historically
                        > documented in use at the time, who is to say the lines NEVER got
                        > crossed...as far as I know, we've yet to invent a time machine to actually
                        > go and observe things....and yes I'm coming off a bit snippish but it's only
                        > because I have spent the last week reading and looking and searching for a
                        > name and most of the names are just hideous and so far every one that I
                        > found to like either wasn't documentable to the early period I want, or in
                        > this case said to be
                        > impossible--even though there were Irish in Wales....I just don't see how
                        > something can be said to be impossible if records are so scant we are to
                        > never really know anyways....no one please take this personally I'm just
                        > getting frustrated and ready to find a name and move on...to something more
                        > fun ...like garb....
                        >
                        > Failend the seriously exasperated.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
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                        > Finder tool.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Terion
                        Greetings and thanks for the links, I think I settled with Failend Bhallach since I can document them both and all ..and I m so tired of looking... Failend
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                          Greetings and thanks for the links, I think I settled with Failend Bhallach since I can document them both and all ..and I'm so tired of looking...

                          Failend


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                        • Elizabeth Cember
                          I think part of it is that there are so many names where you see a person called one thing in one country and something else in another. Like the Gwen/Fiona
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                            I think part of it is that there are so many names where you see a person called one thing in one country and something else in another. Like the Gwen/Fiona example.

                            Now, name experts, would "full welsh name, called Failend" be reasonable?

                            Also, there are many rules in the SCA which have nothing to do with actual medieval practices. Take a look at the rules for devices and compare them to how heraldry was actually used.

                            Elspeth
                            (who took the lazy route years ago)

                            "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                            I woke and saw that life was duty,
                            I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                            -- Rabinranath Tagore



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Terion <mullberrymae@...>
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 12:19:16 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Names

                            Even with my sources that there were early Irish settlements in Wales?? And How can we say that someone wouldn't have an Irish Mother and Welsh Father and a Irish given name in tribute to the mother, we weren't there, it seems ridiculous that such stringent rules are made on pure conjecture, I mean its been said several times that early womens names are hard to come by in documents because women were not recorded as well in history as men etc, I guess I just feel that if all the parts of the name can be historically documented in use at the time, who is to say the lines NEVER got crossed...as far as I know, we've yet to invent a time machine to actually go and observe things....and yes I'm coming off a bit snippish but it's only because I have spent the last week reading and looking and searching for a name and most of the names are just hideous and so far every one that I found to like either wasn't documentable to the early period I want, or in this case said to be
                            impossible-- even though there were Irish in Wales....I just don't see how something can be said to be impossible if records are so scant we are to never really know anyways....no one please take this personally I'm just getting frustrated and ready to find a name and move on...to something more fun ...like garb....

                            Failend the seriously exasperated.


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                          • Terion
                            Snip Elspeth (who took the lazy route years ago) Whats the lazy route, I m sure its for me...I mean I m whining after looking for a name for what a mere week,
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                              Snip>

                              Elspeth
                              (who took the lazy route years ago)

                              Whats the lazy route, I'm sure its for me...I mean I'm whining after looking for a name for what a mere week, some ppl really look...for years and do tons of research .....etc etc...I just want to play!!!

                              Failend Bhallach


                              May Your Day Be Great!
                              K.T. Miller-Rose

                              "If it's true that our species is alone in the universe,
                              then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."

                              George Carlin
                              US comedian and actor (1937 - )


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                            • Elizabeth Cember
                              Um, just deciding to stick with Elspeth and not bothering to register it. When I want to be fancy I m Elspeth of Rivenstar . Elspeth ( the lazy would make
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                Um, just deciding to stick with "Elspeth" and not bothering to register it. When I want to be fancy I'm "Elspeth of Rivenstar".

                                Elspeth
                                ("the lazy" would make an excellent byname, perhaps I should start using it)

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Terion mullberrymae@...
                                Snip>

                                Elspeth
                                (who took the lazy route years ago)

                                Whats the lazy route, I'm sure its for me...I mean I'm whining after looking for a name for what a mere week, some ppl really look...for years and do tons of research .....etc etc...I just want to play!!!

                                Failend Bhallach

                                May Your Day Be Great!
                                K.T. Miller-Rose

                                "If it's true that our species is alone in the universe,
                                then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little."

                                George Carlin
                                US comedian and actor (1937 - )

                                ------------ --------- --------- ---
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                              • Terion
                                Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such? Failend the Resigned (lol) ... You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                  Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such?

                                  Failend the Resigned (lol)


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                                • Kyla
                                  No, absolutely not! My AoA is in my mundane name; Kyla Mead. I am still using my mundane first name - Kyla - until I find something I like better. My surname -
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                    No, absolutely not!
                                    My AoA is in my mundane name; Kyla Mead.
                                    I am still using my mundane first name - Kyla - until I find something I
                                    like better.
                                    My surname - Pennywarden - was a joke based upon my volunteering to take the
                                    penny feast tokens at an event, and is not registered.
                                    The name on the award I just received; Kyla Pennywarden. (Order of the
                                    Cavendish Knot.)

                                    By the way, the Pennywarden surname has nothing whatsoever to do with my
                                    current field of research and persona developement,
                                    which is pre-Muslim Persia.
                                    Eventually, I hope to find a Persian name I like, and might respond to when
                                    called by it.
                                    In the meantime, I split my clothes between the Elizabethan I had already
                                    and the psuedo-Persian/Indian I am making as fast as I can.
                                    (By split, I mean one day I wear Persian, the next Elizabethan.)

                                    Kyla Pennywarden, CCK
                                    Ravenslake, Middle Kingdom
                                    Midrealm


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                                    Behalf Of Terion
                                    Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:04 PM
                                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Names


                                    Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such?

                                    Failend the Resigned (lol)

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                                    in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

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                                  • SidheMaiden
                                    Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such? No, you do not. Eva [who currently has no surname] Kingdom of Æthelmearc Living in Unclaimed
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                      Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such?

                                      No, you do not.

                                      Eva [who currently has no surname]
                                      Kingdom of Æthelmearc
                                      Living in Unclaimed Territory



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                                    • Jeff Suzuki
                                      ... Registering your name and device is a lot like getting your own website. It s cool, neat, etc., and keeps other people from getting your domain name, but
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Terion <mullberrymae@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Do you have to have a registered name for awards and such?

                                        Registering your name and device is a lot like getting your own
                                        website. It's cool, neat, etc., and keeps other people from getting
                                        your domain name, but you don't need to do it to play the internet.

                                        (Becoming a member, now, is a lot like getting an email account:
                                        again, if you don't have one, you can still surf the internet, but
                                        there's a lot of things you can't do, like fight, autocrat, etc.)

                                        I'm one of those people who've played for...a bunch of years, and
                                        have accumulated some number of awards, but have registered neither
                                        name nor device. The *only* relevance a registered name/device has
                                        for the award structure is that it gives the scribes something to put
                                        on the piece of paper.

                                        The award, BTW, is given to the person, not to the persona: if you
                                        decide you don't like your SCA name, change it, and the titles go
                                        along with the person.

                                        Jeffs/etc.
                                      • Terion
                                        Wow, well I guess I should of asked that question first, because I was under the impression I needed a period name to really play !!! Ack....Here I was
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                          Wow, well I guess I should of asked that question first, because I was under the impression I needed a "period" name to really play !!! Ack....Here I was feeling all rushed etc....although Failend Bhallach is kinda growing on me, and I'd been wondering how I will ever stick to one persona anyways...some days I may want comfy celtic other days italian ren etc....and even fancy middle eastern etc...Its too hard to choose....

                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                                          ... You do know, there s no rule that you MUST have a name before you play. I was known as Alisone for several years, then Laurensa du Chambord (still called
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                            At 01:38 PM 6/27/2007, you wrote:
                                            >Whats the lazy route, I'm sure its for me...I mean I'm whining after
                                            >looking for a name for what a mere week, some ppl really look...for
                                            >years and do tons of research .....etc etc...I just want to play!!!
                                            >
                                            >Failend Bhallach
                                            >
                                            >May Your Day Be Great!
                                            >K.T. Miller-Rose


                                            You do know, there's no rule that you MUST have a name before you
                                            play. I was known as Alisone for several years, then Laurensa du
                                            Chambord (still called Laurensa) and the name I submitted last
                                            Pennsic (if it passes) is Laurence la Martre. I will continue to use
                                            Laurensa simply because, although Laurence in Elizabethan times was a
                                            feminine name, it is not now and I am most assuredly NOT a man! :-)

                                            Laurensa
                                          • souriete
                                            ... Wales?? And How can we say that someone wouldn t have an Irish Mother and Welsh Father and a Irish given name in tribute to the mother, we weren t there,
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 28, 2007
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                                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Terion <mullberrymae@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Even with my sources that there were early Irish settlements in
                                              Wales?? And How can we say that someone wouldn't have an Irish Mother
                                              and Welsh Father and a Irish given name in tribute to the mother, we
                                              weren't there, it seems ridiculous that such stringent rules are made
                                              on pure conjecture, I mean its been said several times that early
                                              womens names are hard to come by in documents because women were not
                                              recorded as well in history as men etc, I guess I just feel that if
                                              all the parts of the name can be historically documented in use at the
                                              time, who is to say the lines NEVER got crossed...as far as I know,
                                              we've yet to invent a time machine to actually go and observe
                                              things....and yes I'm coming off a bit snippish but it's only because
                                              I have spent the last week reading and looking and searching for a
                                              name and most of the names are just hideous and so far every one that
                                              I found to like either wasn't documentable to the early period I want,
                                              or in this case said to be
                                              > impossible--even though there were Irish in Wales....I just don't
                                              see how something can be said to be impossible if records are so scant
                                              we are to never really know anyways....no one please take this
                                              personally I'm just getting frustrated and ready to find a name and
                                              move on...to something more fun ...like garb....
                                              >
                                              > Failend the seriously exasperated.

                                              I'm not going to defend the decision about the unregisterability of
                                              combinations of Irish and Welsh; I have no idea what went into that. I
                                              will note that if you could find multiple examples of names that
                                              combined Irish and Welsh in medieval sources, you could get what you
                                              wanted registered, but it would require a great deal of research. You
                                              would need to present evidence in the form of documented names from
                                              reliable sources rather than simply presenting proof of Irish
                                              settlements in Wales. So that is one option, but it could take years
                                              if you can do it at all. You probably have more fun things to do with
                                              your time unless name research is something you love.

                                              Some things I tell people when I am doing name consulting:

                                              Pick a name as authentic (and as registerable) as you can stand – it
                                              will wear better. Even if you are not planning on registering it now,
                                              you may decide to later and the more registerable it is from the
                                              beginning, the better. You probably want to do what you can avoid the
                                              situation where your use name and your registered name are different.
                                              Some kingdoms do or did insist on putting the registered name on the
                                              award scrolls and in the Order of Precedence, regardless of what you
                                              are called.

                                              If you are having a hard time choosing a culture, consider one of the
                                              names that was used by multiple cultures and times with slight changes
                                              of spelling., like Ann, Cecilia or Margaret or John or Thomas.
                                              (Unfortunately, this strategy doesn't work as well for early period
                                              cultures – most of the names that were used in the international name
                                              pool came from the New Testament and the early legends of the saints.
                                              These names were adopted among the general population after the
                                              adoption of Christianity.)

                                              I say many other things too, but that is the two things have come to
                                              my mind during this discussion.

                                              Failend, I wish I could help you more, but I know much more about
                                              Middle English than Welsh or Irish Gaelic, unfortunately.

                                              Scolastica
                                            • artemisdium85
                                              I m just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name Aoife. Does
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 21, 2013
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                                                I'm just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name Aoife. Does anyone know anything about this name? It's history. If it's expectable and the time period it came around. Thank You.
                                              • Sevika Balachandra
                                                Greetings, Aoife MacMurrough was the name of a 12th-century Irish nobleman, the daughter of Dermot MacMurrough and Mor O Toole. You ll have to do a little
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                  Greetings,

                                                  Aoife MacMurrough was the name of a 12th-century Irish nobleman, the
                                                  daughter of Dermot MacMurrough and Mor O'Toole. You'll have to do a little
                                                  research and documentation and check with the college of heralds to see if
                                                  you can use it. Do you know who your local herald is? Someone from your
                                                  local group, or your barony?

                                                  These are the sources that Wikipedia cites that mention Aoife MacMurrough...

                                                  O Croinin, Daibhi (1995) *Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200* London: Longman
                                                  Press; p. 28
                                                  Salmonson, Jessica Amanda.(1991) *The Encyclopedia of Amazons. Paragon House
                                                  *. Page 160. ISBN <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                  1-55778-420-5 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                  Weis, Frederick Lewis *Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who
                                                  Came to America Before 1700*, Lines: 66-26, 175-7, 261-30

                                                  Sincerely,

                                                  Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla


                                                  On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 1:20 PM, artemisdium85 <artemisdium85@...>wrote:

                                                  > **
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was
                                                  > wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name
                                                  > Aoife. Does anyone know anything about this name? It's history. If it's
                                                  > expectable and the time period it came around. Thank You.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Sevika Balachandra
                                                  P.S. Sorry--I meant noblewoman, not nobleman. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Sevika Balachandra
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                    P.S. Sorry--I meant noblewoman, not nobleman.


                                                    On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Sevika Balachandra <
                                                    sevikabalachandra@...> wrote:

                                                    > Greetings,
                                                    >
                                                    > Aoife MacMurrough was the name of a 12th-century Irish nobleman, the
                                                    > daughter of Dermot MacMurrough and Mor O'Toole. You'll have to do a little
                                                    > research and documentation and check with the college of heralds to see if
                                                    > you can use it. Do you know who your local herald is? Someone from your
                                                    > local group, or your barony?
                                                    >
                                                    > These are the sources that Wikipedia cites that mention Aoife
                                                    > MacMurrough...
                                                    >
                                                    > O Croinin, Daibhi (1995) *Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200* London:
                                                    > Longman Press; p. 28
                                                    > Salmonson, Jessica Amanda.(1991) *The Encyclopedia of Amazons. Paragon
                                                    > House*. Page 160. ISBN <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                    > 1-55778-420-5<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                    > Weis, Frederick Lewis *Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who
                                                    > Came to America Before 1700*, Lines: 66-26, 175-7, 261-30
                                                    >
                                                    > Sincerely,
                                                    >
                                                    > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 1:20 PM, artemisdium85 <artemisdium85@...>wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >> **
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I'm just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was
                                                    >> wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name
                                                    >> Aoife. Does anyone know anything about this name? It's history. If it's
                                                    >> expectable and the time period it came around. Thank You.
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Sevika Balachandra
                                                    P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and checking with the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you wish to have
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                      P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and checking with
                                                      the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you
                                                      wish to have your persona's name registered. It's not technically necessary
                                                      to do all that to start using it. A lot of people never register their
                                                      personas' names.


                                                      On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Sevika Balachandra <
                                                      sevikabalachandra@...> wrote:

                                                      > P.S. Sorry--I meant noblewoman, not nobleman.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Sevika Balachandra <
                                                      > sevikabalachandra@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> Greetings,
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Aoife MacMurrough was the name of a 12th-century Irish nobleman, the
                                                      >> daughter of Dermot MacMurrough and Mor O'Toole. You'll have to do a little
                                                      >> research and documentation and check with the college of heralds to see if
                                                      >> you can use it. Do you know who your local herald is? Someone from your
                                                      >> local group, or your barony?
                                                      >>
                                                      >> These are the sources that Wikipedia cites that mention Aoife
                                                      >> MacMurrough...
                                                      >>
                                                      >> O Croinin, Daibhi (1995) *Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200* London:
                                                      >> Longman Press; p. 28
                                                      >> Salmonson, Jessica Amanda.(1991) *The Encyclopedia of Amazons. Paragon
                                                      >> House*. Page 160. ISBN <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                      >> 1-55778-420-5<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1557784205>
                                                      >> Weis, Frederick Lewis *Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who
                                                      >> Came to America Before 1700*, Lines: 66-26, 175-7, 261-30
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Sincerely,
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 1:20 PM, artemisdium85 <artemisdium85@...>wrote:
                                                      >>
                                                      >>> **
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I'm just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was
                                                      >>> wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name
                                                      >>> Aoife. Does anyone know anything about this name? It's history. If it's
                                                      >>> expectable and the time period it came around. Thank You.
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Stefan li Rous
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                                        <<< I'm just getting started in the SCA and looking at names/personas. I was wanting to be irish/gaelic. Something in there. I was looking at the name Aoife. Does anyone know anything about this name? It's history. If it's expectable and the time period it came around. >>>

                                                        I've known of at least two people using the name "Aoife" in the SCA, so I suspect it is okay. I don't know the details or their time period though. Also, just because someone got approval in the past doesn't mean a name is still valid as research is ongoing and the rules can change from time to time.

                                                        I would look up the St. Gabriel site for name verification and proof. I stopped adding a lot of name information to the Florilegium when that site got developed. It is run by some of the SCA heraldry folks.

                                                        As you are new, I would also recommend that you take a look at some of the files in the NEWCOMERS section of the Florilegium. Some that seem to meet your current inquiry include:

                                                        Choose-a-Name-art (12K) 10/ 3/09 "Choosing a Society Name: Hints for Newcomers" by Dietmar Reinhart von Straubing and Malachias von Morgenstern.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/Choose-a-Name-art.html

                                                        names-FAQ (14K) 5/ 8/96 Choosing and registering names in the SCA.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/names-FAQ.html

                                                        Persna-Devlop-art (12K) 1/26/11 "Some Thoughts on Persona Development" by Domna Liutgard of Luxeuil (O.L.)
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/Persna-Devlop-art.html

                                                        Persona-101-art (8K) 4/19/08 "Persona 101" by L. Kyleena of the Ansteorran Rom.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/Persona-101-art.html

                                                        Persona-4-NC-art (6K) 4/ 2/13 "Persona, do I need one?
" by Lady Alison Wodehalle.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/Persona-4-NC-art.html

                                                        Ireland-lnks (20K) 12/25/03 Web links to medieval Ireland by Dame Aoife Finn of Ynos Mon.
                                                        (notice the author's name. This is one of the "Aoife"s I know.)
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Ireland-lnks.html

                                                        Ireland-msg (76K) 1/10/10 Irish culture, dress. Points of interest.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Ireland-msg.html

                                                        In the FOOD-BY-REGION section:
                                                        fd-Ireland-msg (87K) 3/25/13 Medieval Irish food. references. recipes.
                                                        http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BY-REGION/fd-Iceland-msg.html

                                                        I hope these give you a start. There are also lots of other files in the Florilegium that might be of interest to you as well, depending upon what draws you to the SCA.

                                                        Stefan
                                                        --------
                                                        THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                        Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                                        http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                                        **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                                      • Stefan li Rous
                                                        Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla commented:
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jul 23, 2013
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                                                          Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla commented:
                                                          <<< P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and checking with
                                                          the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you
                                                          wish to have your persona's name registered. It's not technically necessary
                                                          to do all that to start using it. A lot of people never register their
                                                          personas' names. >>>

                                                          Yes, you can use a name that you haven't registered or isn't registerable.

                                                          However, I would think carefully before you do such a thing.

                                                          In fact, I would hold off using a name until you have a good idea it *can* be registered.

                                                          Even more I would make sure that SOMEONE ELSE hasn't registered a name before you start to use it. With the registered names online this is a fairly easy thing to do these days. When I registered my name, checking it involved getting and checking through a half-dozen floppy disks to make sure that it wasn't already registered. :-)

                                                          But don't wait too long. Folks in the Society have a way of making up their own name for you, if you wait too long. Ask John the Plain (who answered, "I'm just plain John") or Eve the Just (who had said "I'm just Eve"). She is now after a number of years trying change that to Astridr.

                                                          One thing to keep in mind is that at first, you really only need a first name. You can get along with just that for a while. My AoA scroll says "Stephan of Bryn Gwlad", because at that time, a year into playing in the Society, I hadn't picked a last name yet. And as you can see, the spelling changed also, but spelling was often rather irregular in period. There is at least one document where the same person's name is spelled three different ways, on the same document.

                                                          Some people will wish to use a nickname that they've already been using outside of the SCA. Even if you can't find that name used in your time period in your region, sometimes you can come up with formal name which is close, but still use the nickname for informal use. Sometimes folks have found their nickname used as a last name, but not as a first name, and will register the name that way. Lalla, is that what you did?

                                                          This can mean that, even if it passes the heralds as being period, you have an odd name, in that while it was used in period, it would be rather odd to hear it in your chosen period. The same goes with mixing first and last names. Today it would be strange to be Kennedy John or Bush George.

                                                          Also remember that if you choose a difficult to read and pronounce name, even if the heralds are good and try their best, you may hear many different pronunciations in Court. :-)

                                                          While you can always change your persona name later, the longer and wider you are known by that name the harder it will be to change it later.

                                                          Since you rarely write your name on a lot of objects in ways that can't be changed later, using a name and then having to register a different spelling or different name seldom causes real pain.

                                                          However, I would definitely hold off painting or carving your heraldic device on items until after you have that officially registered!

                                                          Stefan

                                                          --------
                                                          THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                          Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                                          http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                                          **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                                        • Sevika Balachandra
                                                          Stefan, only one person aside from me uses Lalleshwari. My persona is named after a 15th century Kashmiri poetess. The Muslims called her Lalla. I was not
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jul 24, 2013
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                                                            Stefan, only one person aside from me uses "Lalleshwari." My persona is
                                                            named after a 15th century Kashmiri poetess. The Muslims called her
                                                            "Lalla." I was not originally aware that this was a Muslim name and not
                                                            simply a nickname, so when people began to give up (immediately) on
                                                            pronouncing "Lalleshwari," I told them "Lalla" was fine. One of my friends
                                                            picked it up, started pronouncing it "Lahl-lah" (it's supposed to be
                                                            pronounced more like "Lull" as in "lullaby,") it made the rounds, and now
                                                            it's what most people call me. I don't have the power to change it at this
                                                            point and even if I did, they're my friends, and I don't want to argue
                                                            every time they call my name. Also, as a woman told me at my last event,
                                                            "sometimes the nickname chooses you."

                                                            However, I have not registered my persona's name in any form yet. I plan to
                                                            bring documentation and look into doing so at Pennsic. I've been playing
                                                            since February this year and I've been an official member since earlier
                                                            this month.

                                                            Locally, we have a Lady who has been a member for many years, and she had
                                                            some difficulty registering her name at first, but it happened after a few
                                                            years. Sometimes heralds disagree.

                                                            "There is at least one document where the same person's name is spelled
                                                            three different ways, on the same document."

                                                            HA ^ :) this makes me happy.

                                                            Sincerely,

                                                            Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla


                                                            On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous@...
                                                            > wrote:

                                                            > **
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla commented:
                                                            >
                                                            > <<< P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and checking
                                                            > with
                                                            > the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you
                                                            > wish to have your persona's name registered. It's not technically necessary
                                                            > to do all that to start using it. A lot of people never register their
                                                            > personas' names. >>>
                                                            >
                                                            > Yes, you can use a name that you haven't registered or isn't registerable.
                                                            >
                                                            > However, I would think carefully before you do such a thing.
                                                            >
                                                            > In fact, I would hold off using a name until you have a good idea it *can*
                                                            > be registered.
                                                            >
                                                            > Even more I would make sure that SOMEONE ELSE hasn't registered a name
                                                            > before you start to use it. With the registered names online this is a
                                                            > fairly easy thing to do these days. When I registered my name, checking it
                                                            > involved getting and checking through a half-dozen floppy disks to make
                                                            > sure that it wasn't already registered. :-)
                                                            >
                                                            > But don't wait too long. Folks in the Society have a way of making up
                                                            > their own name for you, if you wait too long. Ask John the Plain (who
                                                            > answered, "I'm just plain John") or Eve the Just (who had said "I'm just
                                                            > Eve"). She is now after a number of years trying change that to Astridr.
                                                            >
                                                            > One thing to keep in mind is that at first, you really only need a first
                                                            > name. You can get along with just that for a while. My AoA scroll says
                                                            > "Stephan of Bryn Gwlad", because at that time, a year into playing in the
                                                            > Society, I hadn't picked a last name yet. And as you can see, the spelling
                                                            > changed also, but spelling was often rather irregular in period. There is
                                                            > at least one document where the same person's name is spelled three
                                                            > different ways, on the same document.
                                                            >
                                                            > Some people will wish to use a nickname that they've already been using
                                                            > outside of the SCA. Even if you can't find that name used in your time
                                                            > period in your region, sometimes you can come up with formal name which is
                                                            > close, but still use the nickname for informal use. Sometimes folks have
                                                            > found their nickname used as a last name, but not as a first name, and will
                                                            > register the name that way. Lalla, is that what you did?
                                                            >
                                                            > This can mean that, even if it passes the heralds as being period, you
                                                            > have an odd name, in that while it was used in period, it would be rather
                                                            > odd to hear it in your chosen period. The same goes with mixing first and
                                                            > last names. Today it would be strange to be Kennedy John or Bush George.
                                                            >
                                                            > Also remember that if you choose a difficult to read and pronounce name,
                                                            > even if the heralds are good and try their best, you may hear many
                                                            > different pronunciations in Court. :-)
                                                            >
                                                            > While you can always change your persona name later, the longer and wider
                                                            > you are known by that name the harder it will be to change it later.
                                                            >
                                                            > Since you rarely write your name on a lot of objects in ways that can't be
                                                            > changed later, using a name and then having to register a different
                                                            > spelling or different name seldom causes real pain.
                                                            >
                                                            > However, I would definitely hold off painting or carving your heraldic
                                                            > device on items until after you have that officially registered!
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Stefan
                                                            >
                                                            > --------
                                                            > THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                            > Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                                            > http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                                            > **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >


                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Ian Green
                                                            Just a note, registering names and devices at Pennsic while very convenient and you get excellent advice, does have a much longer processing time than if you
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Aug 8, 2013
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                                                              Just a note, registering names and devices at Pennsic while very convenient
                                                              and you get excellent advice, does have a much longer processing time than
                                                              if you do it through your own Kingdom's heraldic channels.

                                                              Yours in Service,

                                                              Ian the Green

                                                              On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Sevika Balachandra <
                                                              sevikabalachandra@...> wrote:

                                                              > **
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Stefan, only one person aside from me uses "Lalleshwari." My persona is
                                                              > named after a 15th century Kashmiri poetess. The Muslims called her
                                                              > "Lalla." I was not originally aware that this was a Muslim name and not
                                                              > simply a nickname, so when people began to give up (immediately) on
                                                              > pronouncing "Lalleshwari," I told them "Lalla" was fine. One of my friends
                                                              > picked it up, started pronouncing it "Lahl-lah" (it's supposed to be
                                                              > pronounced more like "Lull" as in "lullaby,") it made the rounds, and now
                                                              > it's what most people call me. I don't have the power to change it at this
                                                              > point and even if I did, they're my friends, and I don't want to argue
                                                              > every time they call my name. Also, as a woman told me at my last event,
                                                              > "sometimes the nickname chooses you."
                                                              >
                                                              > However, I have not registered my persona's name in any form yet. I plan to
                                                              > bring documentation and look into doing so at Pennsic. I've been playing
                                                              > since February this year and I've been an official member since earlier
                                                              > this month.
                                                              >
                                                              > Locally, we have a Lady who has been a member for many years, and she had
                                                              > some difficulty registering her name at first, but it happened after a few
                                                              > years. Sometimes heralds disagree.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > "There is at least one document where the same person's name is spelled
                                                              > three different ways, on the same document."
                                                              >
                                                              > HA ^ :) this makes me happy.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Sincerely,
                                                              >
                                                              > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla
                                                              >
                                                              > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Stefan li Rous <
                                                              > stefanlirous@...
                                                              > > wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > > **
                                                              >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla commented:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > <<< P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and checking
                                                              > > with
                                                              > > the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you
                                                              > > wish to have your persona's name registered. It's not technically
                                                              > necessary
                                                              > > to do all that to start using it. A lot of people never register their
                                                              > > personas' names. >>>
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Yes, you can use a name that you haven't registered or isn't
                                                              > registerable.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > However, I would think carefully before you do such a thing.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > In fact, I would hold off using a name until you have a good idea it
                                                              > *can*
                                                              > > be registered.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Even more I would make sure that SOMEONE ELSE hasn't registered a name
                                                              > > before you start to use it. With the registered names online this is a
                                                              > > fairly easy thing to do these days. When I registered my name, checking
                                                              > it
                                                              > > involved getting and checking through a half-dozen floppy disks to make
                                                              > > sure that it wasn't already registered. :-)
                                                              > >
                                                              > > But don't wait too long. Folks in the Society have a way of making up
                                                              > > their own name for you, if you wait too long. Ask John the Plain (who
                                                              > > answered, "I'm just plain John") or Eve the Just (who had said "I'm just
                                                              > > Eve"). She is now after a number of years trying change that to Astridr.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > One thing to keep in mind is that at first, you really only need a first
                                                              > > name. You can get along with just that for a while. My AoA scroll says
                                                              > > "Stephan of Bryn Gwlad", because at that time, a year into playing in the
                                                              > > Society, I hadn't picked a last name yet. And as you can see, the
                                                              > spelling
                                                              > > changed also, but spelling was often rather irregular in period. There is
                                                              > > at least one document where the same person's name is spelled three
                                                              > > different ways, on the same document.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Some people will wish to use a nickname that they've already been using
                                                              > > outside of the SCA. Even if you can't find that name used in your time
                                                              > > period in your region, sometimes you can come up with formal name which
                                                              > is
                                                              > > close, but still use the nickname for informal use. Sometimes folks have
                                                              > > found their nickname used as a last name, but not as a first name, and
                                                              > will
                                                              > > register the name that way. Lalla, is that what you did?
                                                              > >
                                                              > > This can mean that, even if it passes the heralds as being period, you
                                                              > > have an odd name, in that while it was used in period, it would be rather
                                                              > > odd to hear it in your chosen period. The same goes with mixing first and
                                                              > > last names. Today it would be strange to be Kennedy John or Bush George.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Also remember that if you choose a difficult to read and pronounce name,
                                                              > > even if the heralds are good and try their best, you may hear many
                                                              > > different pronunciations in Court. :-)
                                                              > >
                                                              > > While you can always change your persona name later, the longer and wider
                                                              > > you are known by that name the harder it will be to change it later.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Since you rarely write your name on a lot of objects in ways that can't
                                                              > be
                                                              > > changed later, using a name and then having to register a different
                                                              > > spelling or different name seldom causes real pain.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > However, I would definitely hold off painting or carving your heraldic
                                                              > > device on items until after you have that officially registered!
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Stefan
                                                              > >
                                                              > > --------
                                                              > > THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                              > > Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                                              > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                                              > > **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >



                                                              --
                                                              Yours In Service,

                                                              THLord Ian the Green

                                                              "Resistit simplicitati veritas"

                                                              My Blog <http://scribescribbling.wordpress.com/>


                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            • Bill Toscano
                                                              Is that still true with electronic submissions? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Aug 8, 2013
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                                                                Is that still true with electronic submissions?


                                                                On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:

                                                                > Just a note, registering names and devices at Pennsic while very convenient
                                                                > and you get excellent advice, does have a much longer processing time than
                                                                > if you do it through your own Kingdom's heraldic channels.
                                                                >
                                                                > Yours in Service,
                                                                >
                                                                > Ian the Green
                                                                >
                                                                > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Sevika Balachandra <
                                                                > sevikabalachandra@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > > **
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Stefan, only one person aside from me uses "Lalleshwari." My persona is
                                                                > > named after a 15th century Kashmiri poetess. The Muslims called her
                                                                > > "Lalla." I was not originally aware that this was a Muslim name and not
                                                                > > simply a nickname, so when people began to give up (immediately) on
                                                                > > pronouncing "Lalleshwari," I told them "Lalla" was fine. One of my
                                                                > friends
                                                                > > picked it up, started pronouncing it "Lahl-lah" (it's supposed to be
                                                                > > pronounced more like "Lull" as in "lullaby,") it made the rounds, and now
                                                                > > it's what most people call me. I don't have the power to change it at
                                                                > this
                                                                > > point and even if I did, they're my friends, and I don't want to argue
                                                                > > every time they call my name. Also, as a woman told me at my last event,
                                                                > > "sometimes the nickname chooses you."
                                                                > >
                                                                > > However, I have not registered my persona's name in any form yet. I plan
                                                                > to
                                                                > > bring documentation and look into doing so at Pennsic. I've been playing
                                                                > > since February this year and I've been an official member since earlier
                                                                > > this month.
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Locally, we have a Lady who has been a member for many years, and she had
                                                                > > some difficulty registering her name at first, but it happened after a
                                                                > few
                                                                > > years. Sometimes heralds disagree.
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > > "There is at least one document where the same person's name is spelled
                                                                > > three different ways, on the same document."
                                                                > >
                                                                > > HA ^ :) this makes me happy.
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Sincerely,
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla
                                                                > >
                                                                > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Stefan li Rous <
                                                                > > stefanlirous@...
                                                                > > > wrote:
                                                                > >
                                                                > > > **
                                                                > >
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Lalleshwari Sah, called Lalla commented:
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > <<< P.P.S. What I meant, by doing research and documentation and
                                                                > checking
                                                                > > > with
                                                                > > > the college of heralds, is that you should do that at some point if you
                                                                > > > wish to have your persona's name registered. It's not technically
                                                                > > necessary
                                                                > > > to do all that to start using it. A lot of people never register their
                                                                > > > personas' names. >>>
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Yes, you can use a name that you haven't registered or isn't
                                                                > > registerable.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > However, I would think carefully before you do such a thing.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > In fact, I would hold off using a name until you have a good idea it
                                                                > > *can*
                                                                > > > be registered.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Even more I would make sure that SOMEONE ELSE hasn't registered a name
                                                                > > > before you start to use it. With the registered names online this is a
                                                                > > > fairly easy thing to do these days. When I registered my name, checking
                                                                > > it
                                                                > > > involved getting and checking through a half-dozen floppy disks to make
                                                                > > > sure that it wasn't already registered. :-)
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > But don't wait too long. Folks in the Society have a way of making up
                                                                > > > their own name for you, if you wait too long. Ask John the Plain (who
                                                                > > > answered, "I'm just plain John") or Eve the Just (who had said "I'm
                                                                > just
                                                                > > > Eve"). She is now after a number of years trying change that to
                                                                > Astridr.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > One thing to keep in mind is that at first, you really only need a
                                                                > first
                                                                > > > name. You can get along with just that for a while. My AoA scroll says
                                                                > > > "Stephan of Bryn Gwlad", because at that time, a year into playing in
                                                                > the
                                                                > > > Society, I hadn't picked a last name yet. And as you can see, the
                                                                > > spelling
                                                                > > > changed also, but spelling was often rather irregular in period. There
                                                                > is
                                                                > > > at least one document where the same person's name is spelled three
                                                                > > > different ways, on the same document.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Some people will wish to use a nickname that they've already been using
                                                                > > > outside of the SCA. Even if you can't find that name used in your time
                                                                > > > period in your region, sometimes you can come up with formal name which
                                                                > > is
                                                                > > > close, but still use the nickname for informal use. Sometimes folks
                                                                > have
                                                                > > > found their nickname used as a last name, but not as a first name, and
                                                                > > will
                                                                > > > register the name that way. Lalla, is that what you did?
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > This can mean that, even if it passes the heralds as being period, you
                                                                > > > have an odd name, in that while it was used in period, it would be
                                                                > rather
                                                                > > > odd to hear it in your chosen period. The same goes with mixing first
                                                                > and
                                                                > > > last names. Today it would be strange to be Kennedy John or Bush
                                                                > George.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Also remember that if you choose a difficult to read and pronounce
                                                                > name,
                                                                > > > even if the heralds are good and try their best, you may hear many
                                                                > > > different pronunciations in Court. :-)
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > While you can always change your persona name later, the longer and
                                                                > wider
                                                                > > > you are known by that name the harder it will be to change it later.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Since you rarely write your name on a lot of objects in ways that can't
                                                                > > be
                                                                > > > changed later, using a name and then having to register a different
                                                                > > > spelling or different name seldom causes real pain.
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > However, I would definitely hold off painting or carving your heraldic
                                                                > > > device on items until after you have that officially registered!
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > Stefan
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > > --------
                                                                > > > THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                                > > > Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                                                > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                                                > > > **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org****
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > >
                                                                > > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > --
                                                                > Yours In Service,
                                                                >
                                                                > THLord Ian the Green
                                                                >
                                                                > "Resistit simplicitati veritas"
                                                                >
                                                                > My Blog <http://scribescribbling.wordpress.com/>
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                >
                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >


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