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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Using the fabric you already have...

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  • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
    ... Depending on the cordouroy, it could work. I know in some Italian garments, a type of cordouroy was used. Unfortunately, there has been little to help me
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 4, 2006
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      Quoth "peachyfaun":
      > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
      > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

      Depending on the cordouroy, it could work. I know in some Italian
      garments, a type of cordouroy was used. Unfortunately, there has been
      little to help me determine just WHAT type that was.

      The best suggestion I can offer is use cordouroy with
      caution...especially if it's like the stuff they used to make pants
      with in the early 80's. [[You know, the stuff with the wide and deep
      grooves in 'em. Finer and thinner grooves would be more along the line
      of what I've found possible documentation for.]]

      Giudo di Niccolo
    • Susan B. Farmer
      ... But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do see in period artworks? jerusha ... Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com University of
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 4, 2006
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        Quoting Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>:

        > Quoth "peachyfaun":
        >> I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
        >> old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
        >
        > I dunno about Corduroy, but you'll probably want to avoid gingham;
        > according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from
        > Indonesia by the Dutch in the 17th century, when it was striped in
        > pattern.
        >

        But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
        see in period artworks?

        jerusha
        -----
        Susan Farmer
        sfarmer@...
        University of Tennessee
        Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
        http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
      • peachyfaun
        ... wrote: what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics Maybe that is where I am going wrong? I consider gingham to be any pattern that is
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 4, 2006
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          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...>
          wrote:
          what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics

          Maybe that is where I am going wrong? I consider gingham to be any
          pattern that is alternating stirpes of 2 colors, going both
          directions, there by forming checks. That is what I always called
          it, anyway, if it's not, could someone let me know?

          For example like this:

          LDLDLDLDLDL
          WLWLWLWLWLW
          LDLDLDLDLDL
          WLWLWLWLWLW

          L=Light
          D=Dark
          W=White
          when the light intercects, it makes a darker color,
        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn t until the mid-18th century that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 5, 2006
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            Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
            > >> I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
            > >> old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
            > >
            > > I dunno about Corduroy, but you'll probably want to avoid gingham;
            > > according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from
            > > Indonesia by the Dutch in the 17th century, when it was striped in
            > > pattern.
            >
            > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
            > see in period artworks?

            Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
            that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.

            -Aryanhwy




            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • Susan Farmer
            ... I suspect that we re dealing with elevators and lifts here. In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it s a monochrome checked fabric produced
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 5, 2006
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              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
              >
              > Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
              > >
              > > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
              > > see in period artworks?
              >
              > Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
              > that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.
              >
              > -Aryanhwy

              I suspect that we're dealing with "elevators and lifts" here.

              In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it's a monochrome
              checked fabric produced by alternating bands of color and white in
              both the warp and weft direction. Where the color crosses the white,
              you get a paler version of the color.

              CPCPCPCPCP
              PWPWPWPWPW
              CPCPCPCPCP
              PWPWPWPWPW

              http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/catalog_itemdetail.aspx?ItmID=G03Q

              for a color picture. it's typically lightweight cotton, poly/cotton
              or maybe all polyester.

              IMHO, if you've got the fabric and you want to use it, go ahead --
              after you make sure it's not polyester (you'll bake in it). It
              depends on your personal authenticity meter!

              jerusha
            • Heather Noon
              I would use what you have, or offer your fabric around your local group. In my local group we have several ladies that sew for their families that would be
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 5, 2006
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                I would use what you have, or offer your fabric around your local group. In my local group we have several ladies that sew for their families that would be willing to trade "mundane" fabric for more "period" fabric.

                Or just use the comment that the period nazi in my group suggested :) "Thank you for your interest, if you would care to replace this dress for me I would be very glad to wear a more period dress." And she is the one helping me with my stuff now :) *she's cool, just a research bug*

                I've been to several events now and NEVER gotten asked about my garb unless it was a compliment or a hint about something for the weather. For example, if you hem that skirt shorter it will breathe better.

                Heather
                from the Shire of Isenfir in the Kingdom of Atlantia
                who meant to write a note, not a letter :)

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Susan Farmer
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:44 AM
                Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: [SCA Newcomers] Using the fabric you already have...


                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                >
                > Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
                > >
                > > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
                > > see in period artworks?
                >
                > Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
                > that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.
                >
                > -Aryanhwy

                I suspect that we're dealing with "elevators and lifts" here.

                In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it's a monochrome
                checked fabric produced by alternating bands of color and white in
                both the warp and weft direction. Where the color crosses the white,
                you get a paler version of the color.

                CPCPCPCPCP
                PWPWPWPWPW
                CPCPCPCPCP
                PWPWPWPWPW

                http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/catalog_itemdetail.aspx?ItmID=G03Q

                for a color picture. it's typically lightweight cotton, poly/cotton
                or maybe all polyester.

                IMHO, if you've got the fabric and you want to use it, go ahead --
                after you make sure it's not polyester (you'll bake in it). It
                depends on your personal authenticity meter!

                jerusha





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                ... Sara L Uckelman ... Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish a timeline for fabric types. What we now call gingham (at
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 5, 2006
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                  Quoth "peachyfaun":
                  > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
                  > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

                  Sara L Uckelman
                  > . . .you'll probably want to avoid gingham; according to the
                  > Wikipedia, gingham was first important from Indonesia by the Dutch in
                  > the 17th century, when it was striped in pattern.

                  Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish
                  a timeline for fabric types. What we now call "gingham" (at least in
                  the States) is a simple three-color plaid, made of what we now call
                  cotton. In the 17th century, the Dutch imported from Indonesia a
                  striped fabric they called "gingham", which was then something new.
                  Two (potentially) interesting facts about the history of the word
                  "gingham", but not much else.

                  "How old is gingham?" is also not the question you should be asking if
                  you're interested in authenticity. Fabrics, like other things, come
                  and go in fashion. Learning that something existed 3,000 years ago
                  won't help you determine whether it was worn 1,000 years ago. To make
                  a realistic outfit, you need to pair your pattern with fabric from the
                  same place and time.

                  There are three factors to consider in establishing whether a given
                  fabric is plausible for a given period: fiber, weave, and color (the
                  last including patterning).

                  Some cotton was available in some parts of Europe late in our
                  millennium <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>,
                  <http://www.pbm.com/%7Elindahl/articles/cotton.html>, so if you choose
                  the right late-period setting, you might be able to justify a dress
                  made of it.

                  Modern gingham is usually plain weave (no woven-in texture patterns),
                  so I doubt there's a problem there.

                  You didn't mention what color your fabric is. Which were readily
                  available varied from place to place over time. The specific pattern
                  used in modern gingham
                  <http://www.housefabric.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=18930> had
                  almost certainly been invented by the beginning of the SCA millenium; a
                  scrap of fabric in a similar color pattern (but in a different weave)
                  was found in a 3rd- or 4th-century coin hoard in Scotland
                  <http://www.falkirklocalhistorysociety.co.uk/home/index.php?id=131>
                  <http://www.keithcommunity.co.uk/site/museum.htm#Falkirk>. Whether it
                  was used in women's clothing at the same time and in the same places
                  that cotton was is a matter you'd need to research by looking at art
                  and/or photos of existing clothing from the time.

                  What period did you want to dress to? Maybe someone can point you to
                  some resources tailored to your needs (if you'll forgive the pun).


                  Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                • Maria
                  I m going to put my two cents in here. I personally have a dress made with a gingham pattern. People tell me the fabric isn t period and I ask them if they
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 5, 2006
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                    I'm going to put my two cents in here. I personally have a dress made with a gingham pattern. People tell me the fabric isn't period and I ask them if they wove the fabric that they are wearing themselves. My point here is ... IT'S A GAME!!! If you want to use gingham, use it. I don't see a problem with it. Now if you were about to be Crowned King or Queen, then I might say don't use it. If you're really concerned about authenticity and the fashion police, don't use the fabric. But I wouldn't worry about it. To be honest, if anyone says something to you, I'd tell them that it was the best you could do, you are a newcomer, and if they want to correct the problems with your SCA wardrobe, you'll make yourself available at the first possible time for a fitting - would they like to come to your house or should you go to them.

                    There's always a nice way to say leave me alone about my garb. That's one of the best I've found.

                    In Service to the Dream,
                    Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici, SSG
                    Maria Buchanan
                    Official Worrier of House Starfire
                    Hospitaler - Barony of the Stargate
                    Hospitaler - Shire of Gate's Edge
                    In the Stellar Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    281-433-0347

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Using the fabric you already have...


                    Quoth "peachyfaun":
                    > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
                    > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

                    Sara L Uckelman
                    > . . .you'll probably want to avoid gingham; according to the
                    > Wikipedia, gingham was first important from Indonesia by the Dutch in
                    > the 17th century, when it was striped in pattern.

                    Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish
                    a timeline for fabric types. What we now call "gingham" (at least in
                    the States) is a simple three-color plaid, made of what we now call
                    cotton. In the 17th century, the Dutch imported from Indonesia a
                    striped fabric they called "gingham", which was then something new.
                    Two (potentially) interesting facts about the history of the word
                    "gingham", but not much else.

                    "How old is gingham?" is also not the question you should be asking if
                    you're interested in authenticity. Fabrics, like other things, come
                    and go in fashion. Learning that something existed 3,000 years ago
                    won't help you determine whether it was worn 1,000 years ago. To make
                    a realistic outfit, you need to pair your pattern with fabric from the
                    same place and time.

                    There are three factors to consider in establishing whether a given
                    fabric is plausible for a given period: fiber, weave, and color (the
                    last including patterning).

                    Some cotton was available in some parts of Europe late in our
                    millennium <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>,
                    <http://www.pbm.com/%7Elindahl/articles/cotton.html>, so if you choose
                    the right late-period setting, you might be able to justify a dress
                    made of it.

                    Modern gingham is usually plain weave (no woven-in texture patterns),
                    so I doubt there's a problem there.

                    You didn't mention what color your fabric is. Which were readily
                    available varied from place to place over time. The specific pattern
                    used in modern gingham
                    <http://www.housefabric.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=18930> had
                    almost certainly been invented by the beginning of the SCA millenium; a
                    scrap of fabric in a similar color pattern (but in a different weave)
                    was found in a 3rd- or 4th-century coin hoard in Scotland
                    <http://www.falkirklocalhistorysociety.co.uk/home/index.php?id=131>
                    <http://www.keithcommunity.co.uk/site/museum.htm#Falkirk>. Whether it
                    was used in women's clothing at the same time and in the same places
                    that cotton was is a matter you'd need to research by looking at art
                    and/or photos of existing clothing from the time.

                    What period did you want to dress to? Maybe someone can point you to
                    some resources tailored to your needs (if you'll forgive the pun).

                    Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joan Mielke
                    I second Coblaith. Use your stash. Get creative. If you don t like the ribbed side of the corduroy, use the other side out! Gingham is perfect for making
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 6, 2006
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                      I second Coblaith. Use your stash. Get creative. If you don't
                      like the ribbed side of the corduroy, use the other side out!
                      Gingham is perfect for making trial garments for fitting. It is
                      also perfect for lining fabric, and most medieval garments were
                      lined--and they look much better that way too. Or you could try
                      dying the gingham (provided it is 100% cotton).

                      I read somewhere (probably this list) that this is the Society for
                      Creative Anachronism,
                      not the Society for Compulsory Authenticity. Today at fighter
                      practice/court our hospitaller was wearing polyester satin and I
                      discussed with our new baroness how well the weatherstripping inside
                      her new coronet worked for making the crown comfortable... Her
                      favorite part of her new coronet was that her veil doesn't fly off
                      anymore. Personally, I have linen and wool in my stash (both
                      purchased for $2/yard on JoAnne clearance)--- But I wouldn't dream
                      of telling someone else that they have to go out and spend $14/yard
                      for eight yards of linen to make an authentic gown. This is not a
                      Laurel competition.

                      This is one of my favorite SCA clothing links.
                      http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/
                      From that web page take a look at the old pictures of early garb the
                      Baronness made. Obviously it takes time to get to the point of
                      making royalty-ready garb. (A long time.)

                      Remember, this is something that we are doing for FUN!

                      Jehanne
                      (found a name! yea!)
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