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  • peachyfaun
    I d like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 4 2:16 PM
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      I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
      old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... I dunno about Corduroy, but you ll probably want to avoid gingham; according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from Indonesia by the Dutch in
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 4 3:01 PM
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        Quoth "peachyfaun":
        > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
        > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

        I dunno about Corduroy, but you'll probably want to avoid gingham;
        according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from
        Indonesia by the Dutch in the 17th century, when it was striped in
        pattern.

        -Aryanhwy




        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
        ... Depending on the cordouroy, it could work. I know in some Italian garments, a type of cordouroy was used. Unfortunately, there has been little to help me
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 4 3:48 PM
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          Quoth "peachyfaun":
          > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
          > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

          Depending on the cordouroy, it could work. I know in some Italian
          garments, a type of cordouroy was used. Unfortunately, there has been
          little to help me determine just WHAT type that was.

          The best suggestion I can offer is use cordouroy with
          caution...especially if it's like the stuff they used to make pants
          with in the early 80's. [[You know, the stuff with the wide and deep
          grooves in 'em. Finer and thinner grooves would be more along the line
          of what I've found possible documentation for.]]

          Giudo di Niccolo
        • Susan B. Farmer
          ... But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do see in period artworks? jerusha ... Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com University of
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 4 5:04 PM
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            Quoting Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>:

            > Quoth "peachyfaun":
            >> I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
            >> old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
            >
            > I dunno about Corduroy, but you'll probably want to avoid gingham;
            > according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from
            > Indonesia by the Dutch in the 17th century, when it was striped in
            > pattern.
            >

            But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
            see in period artworks?

            jerusha
            -----
            Susan Farmer
            sfarmer@...
            University of Tennessee
            Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
            http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
          • peachyfaun
            ... wrote: what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics Maybe that is where I am going wrong? I consider gingham to be any pattern that is
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 4 5:50 PM
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              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...>
              wrote:
              what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics

              Maybe that is where I am going wrong? I consider gingham to be any
              pattern that is alternating stirpes of 2 colors, going both
              directions, there by forming checks. That is what I always called
              it, anyway, if it's not, could someone let me know?

              For example like this:

              LDLDLDLDLDL
              WLWLWLWLWLW
              LDLDLDLDLDL
              WLWLWLWLWLW

              L=Light
              D=Dark
              W=White
              when the light intercects, it makes a darker color,
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn t until the mid-18th century that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 5 1:24 AM
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                Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
                > >> I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
                > >> old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?
                > >
                > > I dunno about Corduroy, but you'll probably want to avoid gingham;
                > > according to the Wikipedia, gingham was first important from
                > > Indonesia by the Dutch in the 17th century, when it was striped in
                > > pattern.
                >
                > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
                > see in period artworks?

                Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
                that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.

                -Aryanhwy




                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • Susan Farmer
                ... I suspect that we re dealing with elevators and lifts here. In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it s a monochrome checked fabric produced
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 5 8:44 AM
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                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
                  > >
                  > > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
                  > > see in period artworks?
                  >
                  > Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
                  > that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.
                  >
                  > -Aryanhwy

                  I suspect that we're dealing with "elevators and lifts" here.

                  In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it's a monochrome
                  checked fabric produced by alternating bands of color and white in
                  both the warp and weft direction. Where the color crosses the white,
                  you get a paler version of the color.

                  CPCPCPCPCP
                  PWPWPWPWPW
                  CPCPCPCPCP
                  PWPWPWPWPW

                  http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/catalog_itemdetail.aspx?ItmID=G03Q

                  for a color picture. it's typically lightweight cotton, poly/cotton
                  or maybe all polyester.

                  IMHO, if you've got the fabric and you want to use it, go ahead --
                  after you make sure it's not polyester (you'll bake in it). It
                  depends on your personal authenticity meter!

                  jerusha
                • Heather Noon
                  I would use what you have, or offer your fabric around your local group. In my local group we have several ladies that sew for their families that would be
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 5 11:30 AM
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                    I would use what you have, or offer your fabric around your local group. In my local group we have several ladies that sew for their families that would be willing to trade "mundane" fabric for more "period" fabric.

                    Or just use the comment that the period nazi in my group suggested :) "Thank you for your interest, if you would care to replace this dress for me I would be very glad to wear a more period dress." And she is the one helping me with my stuff now :) *she's cool, just a research bug*

                    I've been to several events now and NEVER gotten asked about my garb unless it was a compliment or a hint about something for the weather. For example, if you hem that skirt shorter it will breathe better.

                    Heather
                    from the Shire of Isenfir in the Kingdom of Atlantia
                    who meant to write a note, not a letter :)

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Susan Farmer
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:44 AM
                    Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: [SCA Newcomers] Using the fabric you already have...


                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Quoth "Susan B. Farmer":
                    > >
                    > > But what makes gingham different from other checked fabrics that we do
                    > > see in period artworks?
                    >
                    > Again according to Wikipedia, it wasn't until the mid-18th century
                    > that gingham was produced in checked and plaid patterns.
                    >
                    > -Aryanhwy

                    I suspect that we're dealing with "elevators and lifts" here.

                    In the states, Gingham is a very specific fabric -- it's a monochrome
                    checked fabric produced by alternating bands of color and white in
                    both the warp and weft direction. Where the color crosses the white,
                    you get a paler version of the color.

                    CPCPCPCPCP
                    PWPWPWPWPW
                    CPCPCPCPCP
                    PWPWPWPWPW

                    http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/catalog_itemdetail.aspx?ItmID=G03Q

                    for a color picture. it's typically lightweight cotton, poly/cotton
                    or maybe all polyester.

                    IMHO, if you've got the fabric and you want to use it, go ahead --
                    after you make sure it's not polyester (you'll bake in it). It
                    depends on your personal authenticity meter!

                    jerusha





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    ... Sara L Uckelman ... Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish a timeline for fabric types. What we now call gingham (at
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 5 7:09 PM
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                      Quoth "peachyfaun":
                      > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
                      > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

                      Sara L Uckelman
                      > . . .you'll probably want to avoid gingham; according to the
                      > Wikipedia, gingham was first important from Indonesia by the Dutch in
                      > the 17th century, when it was striped in pattern.

                      Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish
                      a timeline for fabric types. What we now call "gingham" (at least in
                      the States) is a simple three-color plaid, made of what we now call
                      cotton. In the 17th century, the Dutch imported from Indonesia a
                      striped fabric they called "gingham", which was then something new.
                      Two (potentially) interesting facts about the history of the word
                      "gingham", but not much else.

                      "How old is gingham?" is also not the question you should be asking if
                      you're interested in authenticity. Fabrics, like other things, come
                      and go in fashion. Learning that something existed 3,000 years ago
                      won't help you determine whether it was worn 1,000 years ago. To make
                      a realistic outfit, you need to pair your pattern with fabric from the
                      same place and time.

                      There are three factors to consider in establishing whether a given
                      fabric is plausible for a given period: fiber, weave, and color (the
                      last including patterning).

                      Some cotton was available in some parts of Europe late in our
                      millennium <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>,
                      <http://www.pbm.com/%7Elindahl/articles/cotton.html>, so if you choose
                      the right late-period setting, you might be able to justify a dress
                      made of it.

                      Modern gingham is usually plain weave (no woven-in texture patterns),
                      so I doubt there's a problem there.

                      You didn't mention what color your fabric is. Which were readily
                      available varied from place to place over time. The specific pattern
                      used in modern gingham
                      <http://www.housefabric.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=18930> had
                      almost certainly been invented by the beginning of the SCA millenium; a
                      scrap of fabric in a similar color pattern (but in a different weave)
                      was found in a 3rd- or 4th-century coin hoard in Scotland
                      <http://www.falkirklocalhistorysociety.co.uk/home/index.php?id=131>
                      <http://www.keithcommunity.co.uk/site/museum.htm#Falkirk>. Whether it
                      was used in women's clothing at the same time and in the same places
                      that cotton was is a matter you'd need to research by looking at art
                      and/or photos of existing clothing from the time.

                      What period did you want to dress to? Maybe someone can point you to
                      some resources tailored to your needs (if you'll forgive the pun).


                      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                      Kingdom of Ansteorra
                      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                    • Maria
                      I m going to put my two cents in here. I personally have a dress made with a gingham pattern. People tell me the fabric isn t period and I ask them if they
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 5 8:48 PM
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                        I'm going to put my two cents in here. I personally have a dress made with a gingham pattern. People tell me the fabric isn't period and I ask them if they wove the fabric that they are wearing themselves. My point here is ... IT'S A GAME!!! If you want to use gingham, use it. I don't see a problem with it. Now if you were about to be Crowned King or Queen, then I might say don't use it. If you're really concerned about authenticity and the fashion police, don't use the fabric. But I wouldn't worry about it. To be honest, if anyone says something to you, I'd tell them that it was the best you could do, you are a newcomer, and if they want to correct the problems with your SCA wardrobe, you'll make yourself available at the first possible time for a fitting - would they like to come to your house or should you go to them.

                        There's always a nice way to say leave me alone about my garb. That's one of the best I've found.

                        In Service to the Dream,
                        Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici, SSG
                        Maria Buchanan
                        Official Worrier of House Starfire
                        Hospitaler - Barony of the Stargate
                        Hospitaler - Shire of Gate's Edge
                        In the Stellar Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        281-433-0347

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Using the fabric you already have...


                        Quoth "peachyfaun":
                        > I'd like to use the things I bought before SCA, does anyone know how
                        > old Cordouroy is, How about Gingham?

                        Sara L Uckelman
                        > . . .you'll probably want to avoid gingham; according to the
                        > Wikipedia, gingham was first important from Indonesia by the Dutch in
                        > the 17th century, when it was striped in pattern.

                        Be very careful about using the etymology of modern terms to establish
                        a timeline for fabric types. What we now call "gingham" (at least in
                        the States) is a simple three-color plaid, made of what we now call
                        cotton. In the 17th century, the Dutch imported from Indonesia a
                        striped fabric they called "gingham", which was then something new.
                        Two (potentially) interesting facts about the history of the word
                        "gingham", but not much else.

                        "How old is gingham?" is also not the question you should be asking if
                        you're interested in authenticity. Fabrics, like other things, come
                        and go in fashion. Learning that something existed 3,000 years ago
                        won't help you determine whether it was worn 1,000 years ago. To make
                        a realistic outfit, you need to pair your pattern with fabric from the
                        same place and time.

                        There are three factors to consider in establishing whether a given
                        fabric is plausible for a given period: fiber, weave, and color (the
                        last including patterning).

                        Some cotton was available in some parts of Europe late in our
                        millennium <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>,
                        <http://www.pbm.com/%7Elindahl/articles/cotton.html>, so if you choose
                        the right late-period setting, you might be able to justify a dress
                        made of it.

                        Modern gingham is usually plain weave (no woven-in texture patterns),
                        so I doubt there's a problem there.

                        You didn't mention what color your fabric is. Which were readily
                        available varied from place to place over time. The specific pattern
                        used in modern gingham
                        <http://www.housefabric.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=18930> had
                        almost certainly been invented by the beginning of the SCA millenium; a
                        scrap of fabric in a similar color pattern (but in a different weave)
                        was found in a 3rd- or 4th-century coin hoard in Scotland
                        <http://www.falkirklocalhistorysociety.co.uk/home/index.php?id=131>
                        <http://www.keithcommunity.co.uk/site/museum.htm#Falkirk>. Whether it
                        was used in women's clothing at the same time and in the same places
                        that cotton was is a matter you'd need to research by looking at art
                        and/or photos of existing clothing from the time.

                        What period did you want to dress to? Maybe someone can point you to
                        some resources tailored to your needs (if you'll forgive the pun).

                        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joan Mielke
                        I second Coblaith. Use your stash. Get creative. If you don t like the ribbed side of the corduroy, use the other side out! Gingham is perfect for making
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 6 9:41 PM
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                          I second Coblaith. Use your stash. Get creative. If you don't
                          like the ribbed side of the corduroy, use the other side out!
                          Gingham is perfect for making trial garments for fitting. It is
                          also perfect for lining fabric, and most medieval garments were
                          lined--and they look much better that way too. Or you could try
                          dying the gingham (provided it is 100% cotton).

                          I read somewhere (probably this list) that this is the Society for
                          Creative Anachronism,
                          not the Society for Compulsory Authenticity. Today at fighter
                          practice/court our hospitaller was wearing polyester satin and I
                          discussed with our new baroness how well the weatherstripping inside
                          her new coronet worked for making the crown comfortable... Her
                          favorite part of her new coronet was that her veil doesn't fly off
                          anymore. Personally, I have linen and wool in my stash (both
                          purchased for $2/yard on JoAnne clearance)--- But I wouldn't dream
                          of telling someone else that they have to go out and spend $14/yard
                          for eight yards of linen to make an authentic gown. This is not a
                          Laurel competition.

                          This is one of my favorite SCA clothing links.
                          http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/
                          From that web page take a look at the old pictures of early garb the
                          Baronness made. Obviously it takes time to get to the point of
                          making royalty-ready garb. (A long time.)

                          Remember, this is something that we are doing for FUN!

                          Jehanne
                          (found a name! yea!)
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