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Re: Heraldry questions

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  • maevedechesne
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
      >
      > Quoth "maevedechesne":
      > > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
      >
      > What is the name?
      >
      > -Aryanhwy
      >
      >
      >The name is Maeve de Chesne
      > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland
      > vita sine literis mors est
      > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      >
    • Maria
      Aryanhwy, I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
        Aryanhwy,

        I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

        Maria
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sara L Uckelman
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:16 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


        Quoth "tuamkoh":
        > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
        > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
        > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
        > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

        The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
        purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
        that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
        a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
        equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
        it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
        metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
        argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
        it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

        Hope this helps!

        -Aryanhwy

        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... Celtic is the name of a group of languages, not a specific language (just as Romance is the name of the family of languages which contains Italian,
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
          Quoth "maevedechesne":
          > >The name is Maeve de Chesne
          > > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland

          'Celtic' is the name of a group of languages, not a specific
          language (just as 'Romance' is the name of the family of
          languages which contains Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian,
          etc.); both Gaelic and Welsh are Celtic languages, but
          Gaelic and Welsh are definitely distinct languages and names
          and naming practices which are appropriate for one language
          aren't in general appropriate for the other. (In particular,
          if you're interested in registering your name, you'd want to
          pick something which is either wholly Welsh or wholly Gaelic,
          as names which combine elements from both langauges are not
          registerable.)

          So, wether you want to live in Wales or in Scotland will
          make a difference as to what types of names are appropriate.

          <Maeve> is a modern English form of the Gaelic name <Meadhbh>;
          so far, I know of no evidence that the spelling <Maeve> is
          found before modern times. <Meadhbh> is a fine choice for
          the 13th century; this name is moderately common in Irish
          Gaelic. [1,2] However, it doesn't appear that this name was
          used at all in Scottish Gaelic. [3]

          <de Chesne> is actually neither Gaelic nor Welsh - it's
          English (originally from the Old French <chesnai> 'oak-grove').
          There are various examples of this surname in the 12th and
          13th century - <de Chaisnei>, <de Cheisnei> 1140, 1166, <de
          Cheinnei> a. 1183, <de Chennei> 12th C, <de Chesnei> 1205, <del
          Chennay> 1212, <de Cheny> 1235, <del Chesne> 1236, <de Cheyny>
          1242, <de Cheyne> 1296>. [4] So, if you're looking for an
          English persona, then this is a great choice for a 13th century
          byname, but it's not a good choice for a Welsh or Scottish
          Gaelic woman.

          So, there's a lot of possibilities open to you - if you're
          interested in a Scottish Gaelic name, then you might want to
          check out these articles:

          "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names"
          http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

          "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names"
          http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml

          "Scottish Gaelic Given Names"
          http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

          If Welsh is your interest, then I can do no better than recommend
          this article:

          "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names"
          http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html

          And then lastly if you'd rather have an English name, to go with
          <de Chesne>, here are some good places to look for a 13th century
          English given name:

          "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_"
          http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/

          "Names from 13th Century Northumberland"
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/northumberland.html

          "Given Names from Early 13th Century England"
          http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng13/

          Hope this helps! If you've got any other questions, please let
          me know!

          -Aryanhwy


          --
          Notes:

          [1] O'Corrain & Maguire, _Irish Names_, s.n. Medb

          [2] "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Names"
          (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/)

          [3] Academy of S. Gabriel Report #2196
          (http://www.s-gabriel.org/2196).

          [4] Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ s.n.
          Cheyney


          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are not considered neutral, and so they couldn t be placed on a red field. You d want to
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
            Quoth "Maria":
            > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
            > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

            In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
            not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
            You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
            change the background to yellow or white).

            -Aryanhwy



            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • Maria
            Thanks. M ... From: Sara L Uckelman To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
              Thanks.

              M
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sara L Uckelman
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


              Quoth "Maria":
              > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
              > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

              In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
              not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
              You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
              change the background to yellow or white).

              -Aryanhwy

              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joshua Poling-Goldenne
              ... Tuam, Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can t find a herald locally, there are a few other options I can think of... 1) Contact the Kingdom Herald
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
                On 7/5/06, tuamkoh <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
                > working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds,
                > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
                > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
                >
                > Tuam
                >








                Tuam,

                Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can't find a herald locally, there
                are a few other options I can think of...

                1) Contact the Kingdom Herald and ask him for help finding someone
                Lord EĆ³gan mac Ailpein
                mka Gene Bonar
                5105 Little Beaverdam Court, Holly Springs, NC, 27540
                herald@...

                2) Apparently the Atlantian heralds have an email list, so you could
                possibly subscribe to that and ask there.
                To subscribe to the Atlantian Heralds E-mail List, send a blank email to:
                AtlantianHeralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                3) Join the Merry Rose (Atlantia's official kingdom-wide mailing list) and
                ask for help finding a local herald there.

                4) Find the Herald's consult table at an event (they are at most of them)

                Gaspar Marti


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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