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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... What is the name? -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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      Quoth "maevedechesne":
      > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky

      What is the name?

      -Aryanhwy



      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue, purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you re right that in general,
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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        Quoth "tuamkoh":
        > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
        > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
        > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
        > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

        The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
        purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
        that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
        a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
        equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
        it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
        metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
        argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
        it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

        Hope this helps!

        -Aryanhwy




        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • maevedechesne
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
          >
          > Quoth "maevedechesne":
          > > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
          >
          > What is the name?
          >
          > -Aryanhwy
          >
          >
          >The name is Maeve de Chesne
          > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland
          > vita sine literis mors est
          > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          >
        • Maria
          Aryanhwy, I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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            Aryanhwy,

            I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

            Maria
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sara L Uckelman
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


            Quoth "tuamkoh":
            > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
            > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
            > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
            > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

            The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
            purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
            that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
            a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
            equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
            it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
            metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
            argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
            it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

            Hope this helps!

            -Aryanhwy

            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Celtic is the name of a group of languages, not a specific language (just as Romance is the name of the family of languages which contains Italian,
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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              Quoth "maevedechesne":
              > >The name is Maeve de Chesne
              > > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland

              'Celtic' is the name of a group of languages, not a specific
              language (just as 'Romance' is the name of the family of
              languages which contains Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian,
              etc.); both Gaelic and Welsh are Celtic languages, but
              Gaelic and Welsh are definitely distinct languages and names
              and naming practices which are appropriate for one language
              aren't in general appropriate for the other. (In particular,
              if you're interested in registering your name, you'd want to
              pick something which is either wholly Welsh or wholly Gaelic,
              as names which combine elements from both langauges are not
              registerable.)

              So, wether you want to live in Wales or in Scotland will
              make a difference as to what types of names are appropriate.

              <Maeve> is a modern English form of the Gaelic name <Meadhbh>;
              so far, I know of no evidence that the spelling <Maeve> is
              found before modern times. <Meadhbh> is a fine choice for
              the 13th century; this name is moderately common in Irish
              Gaelic. [1,2] However, it doesn't appear that this name was
              used at all in Scottish Gaelic. [3]

              <de Chesne> is actually neither Gaelic nor Welsh - it's
              English (originally from the Old French <chesnai> 'oak-grove').
              There are various examples of this surname in the 12th and
              13th century - <de Chaisnei>, <de Cheisnei> 1140, 1166, <de
              Cheinnei> a. 1183, <de Chennei> 12th C, <de Chesnei> 1205, <del
              Chennay> 1212, <de Cheny> 1235, <del Chesne> 1236, <de Cheyny>
              1242, <de Cheyne> 1296>. [4] So, if you're looking for an
              English persona, then this is a great choice for a 13th century
              byname, but it's not a good choice for a Welsh or Scottish
              Gaelic woman.

              So, there's a lot of possibilities open to you - if you're
              interested in a Scottish Gaelic name, then you might want to
              check out these articles:

              "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names"
              http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

              "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names"
              http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml

              "Scottish Gaelic Given Names"
              http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

              If Welsh is your interest, then I can do no better than recommend
              this article:

              "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names"
              http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html

              And then lastly if you'd rather have an English name, to go with
              <de Chesne>, here are some good places to look for a 13th century
              English given name:

              "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_"
              http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/

              "Names from 13th Century Northumberland"
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/northumberland.html

              "Given Names from Early 13th Century England"
              http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng13/

              Hope this helps! If you've got any other questions, please let
              me know!

              -Aryanhwy


              --
              Notes:

              [1] O'Corrain & Maguire, _Irish Names_, s.n. Medb

              [2] "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Names"
              (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/)

              [3] Academy of S. Gabriel Report #2196
              (http://www.s-gabriel.org/2196).

              [4] Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ s.n.
              Cheyney


              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are not considered neutral, and so they couldn t be placed on a red field. You d want to
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                Quoth "Maria":
                > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                change the background to yellow or white).

                -Aryanhwy



                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • Maria
                Thanks. M ... From: Sara L Uckelman To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                  Thanks.

                  M
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sara L Uckelman
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


                  Quoth "Maria":
                  > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                  > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                  In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                  not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                  You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                  change the background to yellow or white).

                  -Aryanhwy

                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





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                • Joshua Poling-Goldenne
                  ... Tuam, Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can t find a herald locally, there are a few other options I can think of... 1) Contact the Kingdom Herald
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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                    On 7/5/06, tuamkoh <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
                    > working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds,
                    > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
                    > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
                    >
                    > Tuam
                    >








                    Tuam,

                    Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can't find a herald locally, there
                    are a few other options I can think of...

                    1) Contact the Kingdom Herald and ask him for help finding someone
                    Lord EĆ³gan mac Ailpein
                    mka Gene Bonar
                    5105 Little Beaverdam Court, Holly Springs, NC, 27540
                    herald@...

                    2) Apparently the Atlantian heralds have an email list, so you could
                    possibly subscribe to that and ask there.
                    To subscribe to the Atlantian Heralds E-mail List, send a blank email to:
                    AtlantianHeralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    3) Join the Merry Rose (Atlantia's official kingdom-wide mailing list) and
                    ask for help finding a local herald there.

                    4) Find the Herald's consult table at an event (they are at most of them)

                    Gaspar Marti


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