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Re: Heraldry questions

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  • maevedechesne
    ... Heralds, ... I m having the same problem in Trimaris! Maeve de Chesne
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tuamkoh" <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
      > working on registering my name and device with the College of
      Heralds,
      > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
      > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
      >
      > Tuam
      >
      I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!

      Maeve de Chesne
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The list is fairly active and if you email them, you ll probably get a response within a couple of
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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        Quoth "maevedechesne":
        > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
        >
        > Maeve de Chesne

        Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
        list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
        get a response within a couple of hours.

        If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
        to answer it for you.

        -Aryanhwy, herald goob



        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • maevedechesne
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Quoth "maevedechesne":
          > > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
          > >
          > > Maeve de Chesne
          >
          > Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
          > list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
          > get a response within a couple of hours.
          >
          > If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
          > to answer it for you.
          >
          > -Aryanhwy, herald goob
          >
          >
          >
          > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
          > vita sine literis mors est
          > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          >
        • tuamkoh
          Thank You Ary, If you don t mind, I would appreciate the help. I m designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field. I would like the fools head
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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            Thank You Ary,

            If you don't mind, I would appreciate the help.

            I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
            I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
            one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
            I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

            Thanks,
            Tuam

            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Quoth "maevedechesne":
            > > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
            > >
            > > Maeve de Chesne
            >
            > Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
            > list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
            > get a response within a couple of hours.
            >
            > If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
            > to answer it for you.
            >
            > -Aryanhwy, herald goob
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > vita sine literis mors est
            > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            >
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... What is the name? -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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              Quoth "maevedechesne":
              > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky

              What is the name?

              -Aryanhwy



              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue, purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you re right that in general,
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                Quoth "tuamkoh":
                > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
                > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
                > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
                > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

                The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
                purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
                that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
                a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
                equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
                it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
                metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
                argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
                it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

                Hope this helps!

                -Aryanhwy




                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • maevedechesne
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Quoth "maevedechesne":
                  > > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
                  >
                  > What is the name?
                  >
                  > -Aryanhwy
                  >
                  >
                  >The name is Maeve de Chesne
                  > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland
                  > vita sine literis mors est
                  > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  >
                • Maria
                  Aryanhwy, I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                    Aryanhwy,

                    I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                    Maria
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sara L Uckelman
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:16 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


                    Quoth "tuamkoh":
                    > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
                    > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
                    > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
                    > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

                    The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
                    purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
                    that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
                    a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
                    equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
                    it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
                    metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
                    argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
                    it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

                    Hope this helps!

                    -Aryanhwy

                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... Celtic is the name of a group of languages, not a specific language (just as Romance is the name of the family of languages which contains Italian,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                      Quoth "maevedechesne":
                      > >The name is Maeve de Chesne
                      > > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland

                      'Celtic' is the name of a group of languages, not a specific
                      language (just as 'Romance' is the name of the family of
                      languages which contains Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian,
                      etc.); both Gaelic and Welsh are Celtic languages, but
                      Gaelic and Welsh are definitely distinct languages and names
                      and naming practices which are appropriate for one language
                      aren't in general appropriate for the other. (In particular,
                      if you're interested in registering your name, you'd want to
                      pick something which is either wholly Welsh or wholly Gaelic,
                      as names which combine elements from both langauges are not
                      registerable.)

                      So, wether you want to live in Wales or in Scotland will
                      make a difference as to what types of names are appropriate.

                      <Maeve> is a modern English form of the Gaelic name <Meadhbh>;
                      so far, I know of no evidence that the spelling <Maeve> is
                      found before modern times. <Meadhbh> is a fine choice for
                      the 13th century; this name is moderately common in Irish
                      Gaelic. [1,2] However, it doesn't appear that this name was
                      used at all in Scottish Gaelic. [3]

                      <de Chesne> is actually neither Gaelic nor Welsh - it's
                      English (originally from the Old French <chesnai> 'oak-grove').
                      There are various examples of this surname in the 12th and
                      13th century - <de Chaisnei>, <de Cheisnei> 1140, 1166, <de
                      Cheinnei> a. 1183, <de Chennei> 12th C, <de Chesnei> 1205, <del
                      Chennay> 1212, <de Cheny> 1235, <del Chesne> 1236, <de Cheyny>
                      1242, <de Cheyne> 1296>. [4] So, if you're looking for an
                      English persona, then this is a great choice for a 13th century
                      byname, but it's not a good choice for a Welsh or Scottish
                      Gaelic woman.

                      So, there's a lot of possibilities open to you - if you're
                      interested in a Scottish Gaelic name, then you might want to
                      check out these articles:

                      "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names"
                      http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

                      "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names"
                      http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml

                      "Scottish Gaelic Given Names"
                      http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

                      If Welsh is your interest, then I can do no better than recommend
                      this article:

                      "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names"
                      http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html

                      And then lastly if you'd rather have an English name, to go with
                      <de Chesne>, here are some good places to look for a 13th century
                      English given name:

                      "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_"
                      http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/

                      "Names from 13th Century Northumberland"
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/northumberland.html

                      "Given Names from Early 13th Century England"
                      http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng13/

                      Hope this helps! If you've got any other questions, please let
                      me know!

                      -Aryanhwy


                      --
                      Notes:

                      [1] O'Corrain & Maguire, _Irish Names_, s.n. Medb

                      [2] "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Names"
                      (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/)

                      [3] Academy of S. Gabriel Report #2196
                      (http://www.s-gabriel.org/2196).

                      [4] Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ s.n.
                      Cheyney


                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are not considered neutral, and so they couldn t be placed on a red field. You d want to
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                        Quoth "Maria":
                        > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                        > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                        In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                        not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                        You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                        change the background to yellow or white).

                        -Aryanhwy



                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • Maria
                        Thanks. M ... From: Sara L Uckelman To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                          Thanks.

                          M
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sara L Uckelman
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


                          Quoth "Maria":
                          > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                          > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                          In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                          not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                          You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                          change the background to yellow or white).

                          -Aryanhwy

                          --
                          vita sine literis mors est
                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joshua Poling-Goldenne
                          ... Tuam, Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can t find a herald locally, there are a few other options I can think of... 1) Contact the Kingdom Herald
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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                            On 7/5/06, tuamkoh <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
                            > working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds,
                            > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
                            > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
                            >
                            > Tuam
                            >








                            Tuam,

                            Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can't find a herald locally, there
                            are a few other options I can think of...

                            1) Contact the Kingdom Herald and ask him for help finding someone
                            Lord EĆ³gan mac Ailpein
                            mka Gene Bonar
                            5105 Little Beaverdam Court, Holly Springs, NC, 27540
                            herald@...

                            2) Apparently the Atlantian heralds have an email list, so you could
                            possibly subscribe to that and ask there.
                            To subscribe to the Atlantian Heralds E-mail List, send a blank email to:
                            AtlantianHeralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            3) Join the Merry Rose (Atlantia's official kingdom-wide mailing list) and
                            ask for help finding a local herald there.

                            4) Find the Herald's consult table at an event (they are at most of them)

                            Gaspar Marti


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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