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Heraldry questions

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  • tuamkoh
    I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds, but can t seem to get in
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 5, 2006
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      I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
      working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds,
      but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
      Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?

      Tuam
    • maevedechesne
      ... Heralds, ... I m having the same problem in Trimaris! Maeve de Chesne
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tuamkoh" <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
        > working on registering my name and device with the College of
        Heralds,
        > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
        > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
        >
        > Tuam
        >
        I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!

        Maeve de Chesne
      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The list is fairly active and if you email them, you ll probably get a response within a couple of
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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          Quoth "maevedechesne":
          > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
          >
          > Maeve de Chesne

          Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
          list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
          get a response within a couple of hours.

          If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
          to answer it for you.

          -Aryanhwy, herald goob



          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • maevedechesne
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Quoth "maevedechesne":
            > > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
            > >
            > > Maeve de Chesne
            >
            > Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
            > list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
            > get a response within a couple of hours.
            >
            > If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
            > to answer it for you.
            >
            > -Aryanhwy, herald goob
            >
            >
            >
            > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
            > vita sine literis mors est
            > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            >
          • tuamkoh
            Thank You Ary, If you don t mind, I would appreciate the help. I m designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field. I would like the fools head
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 6, 2006
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              Thank You Ary,

              If you don't mind, I would appreciate the help.

              I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
              I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
              one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
              I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

              Thanks,
              Tuam

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Quoth "maevedechesne":
              > > I'm having the same problem in Trimaris!
              > >
              > > Maeve de Chesne
              >
              > Have you tried emailing CoHTrimaris@yahoogroups.com? The
              > list is fairly active and if you email them, you'll probably
              > get a response within a couple of hours.
              >
              > If it's a general heraldic question, I'd also be willing to try
              > to answer it for you.
              >
              > -Aryanhwy, herald goob
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > vita sine literis mors est
              > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              >
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... What is the name? -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                Quoth "maevedechesne":
                > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky

                What is the name?

                -Aryanhwy



                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue, purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you re right that in general,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                  Quoth "tuamkoh":
                  > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
                  > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
                  > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
                  > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

                  The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
                  purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
                  that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
                  a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
                  equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
                  it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
                  metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
                  argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
                  it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

                  Hope this helps!

                  -Aryanhwy




                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • maevedechesne
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Quoth "maevedechesne":
                    > > > --Juat trying to get the name approved which has been tricky
                    >
                    > What is the name?
                    >
                    > -Aryanhwy
                    >
                    >
                    >The name is Maeve de Chesne
                    > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland
                    > vita sine literis mors est
                    > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    >
                  • Maria
                    Aryanhwy, I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                      Aryanhwy,

                      I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars on it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                      Maria
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sara L Uckelman
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:16 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


                      Quoth "tuamkoh":
                      > I'm designing my device, a fools head above a sword on a red field.
                      > I would like the fools head to be divided into two colors(black on
                      > one side and white on the other). But this places Black on red which
                      > I read is against the rules of heraldry. or am I reading that wrong.

                      The heraldic tinctures come in two classes - colors (black, red, blue,
                      purple, and green) and metals (yellow and white) - and you're right
                      that in general, you can't place a color on a color or a metal on
                      a metal. However, when you've got a charge which has been divided
                      equally between a color and a metal, such as your fool's head, then
                      it's considered neutral, and can be placed on either a color or a
                      metal background. So, "Gules, a fool's head per pale sable and
                      argent" is just fine. ("Per pale" if it's divided vertically; if
                      it's divided horizontally, it's "per fess".)

                      Hope this helps!

                      -Aryanhwy

                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... Celtic is the name of a group of languages, not a specific language (just as Romance is the name of the family of languages which contains Italian,
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                        Quoth "maevedechesne":
                        > >The name is Maeve de Chesne
                        > > -- It is 13th century celtic. From wales and Scotland

                        'Celtic' is the name of a group of languages, not a specific
                        language (just as 'Romance' is the name of the family of
                        languages which contains Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian,
                        etc.); both Gaelic and Welsh are Celtic languages, but
                        Gaelic and Welsh are definitely distinct languages and names
                        and naming practices which are appropriate for one language
                        aren't in general appropriate for the other. (In particular,
                        if you're interested in registering your name, you'd want to
                        pick something which is either wholly Welsh or wholly Gaelic,
                        as names which combine elements from both langauges are not
                        registerable.)

                        So, wether you want to live in Wales or in Scotland will
                        make a difference as to what types of names are appropriate.

                        <Maeve> is a modern English form of the Gaelic name <Meadhbh>;
                        so far, I know of no evidence that the spelling <Maeve> is
                        found before modern times. <Meadhbh> is a fine choice for
                        the 13th century; this name is moderately common in Irish
                        Gaelic. [1,2] However, it doesn't appear that this name was
                        used at all in Scottish Gaelic. [3]

                        <de Chesne> is actually neither Gaelic nor Welsh - it's
                        English (originally from the Old French <chesnai> 'oak-grove').
                        There are various examples of this surname in the 12th and
                        13th century - <de Chaisnei>, <de Cheisnei> 1140, 1166, <de
                        Cheinnei> a. 1183, <de Chennei> 12th C, <de Chesnei> 1205, <del
                        Chennay> 1212, <de Cheny> 1235, <del Chesne> 1236, <de Cheyny>
                        1242, <de Cheyne> 1296>. [4] So, if you're looking for an
                        English persona, then this is a great choice for a 13th century
                        byname, but it's not a good choice for a Welsh or Scottish
                        Gaelic woman.

                        So, there's a lot of possibilities open to you - if you're
                        interested in a Scottish Gaelic name, then you might want to
                        check out these articles:

                        "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names"
                        http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

                        "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names"
                        http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml

                        "Scottish Gaelic Given Names"
                        http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

                        If Welsh is your interest, then I can do no better than recommend
                        this article:

                        "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names"
                        http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html

                        And then lastly if you'd rather have an English name, to go with
                        <de Chesne>, here are some good places to look for a 13th century
                        English given name:

                        "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English Surnames_"
                        http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/

                        "Names from 13th Century Northumberland"
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/northumberland.html

                        "Given Names from Early 13th Century England"
                        http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng13/

                        Hope this helps! If you've got any other questions, please let
                        me know!

                        -Aryanhwy


                        --
                        Notes:

                        [1] O'Corrain & Maguire, _Irish Names_, s.n. Medb

                        [2] "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Names"
                        (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/)

                        [3] Academy of S. Gabriel Report #2196
                        (http://www.s-gabriel.org/2196).

                        [4] Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ s.n.
                        Cheyney


                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • Sara L Uckelman
                        ... In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are not considered neutral, and so they couldn t be placed on a red field. You d want to
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                          Quoth "Maria":
                          > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                          > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                          In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                          not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                          You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                          change the background to yellow or white).

                          -Aryanhwy



                          --
                          vita sine literis mors est
                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                        • Maria
                          Thanks. M ... From: Sara L Uckelman To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 7, 2006
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                            Thanks.

                            M
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Sara L Uckelman
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:01 AM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry questions


                            Quoth "Maria":
                            > I have a question. If you have a black cat on a red field with black stars o
                            > n it is that considered a neutral also or does it have to be white stars?

                            In this case, since the cat and the stars are wholly black, they are
                            not considered neutral, and so they couldn't be placed on a red field.
                            You'd want to make both the cats and the stars yellow or white (or
                            change the background to yellow or white).

                            -Aryanhwy

                            --
                            vita sine literis mors est
                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Joshua Poling-Goldenne
                            ... Tuam, Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can t find a herald locally, there are a few other options I can think of... 1) Contact the Kingdom Herald
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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                              On 7/5/06, tuamkoh <tuamkoh@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I am newly returned to the sca after a few years absence. I am
                              > working on registering my name and device with the College of Heralds,
                              > but can't seem to get in touch with a local herald. Are there any
                              > Antlantian Heralds on this list willing to consult with me?
                              >
                              > Tuam
                              >








                              Tuam,

                              Where in Atlantia are you located? If you can't find a herald locally, there
                              are a few other options I can think of...

                              1) Contact the Kingdom Herald and ask him for help finding someone
                              Lord EĆ³gan mac Ailpein
                              mka Gene Bonar
                              5105 Little Beaverdam Court, Holly Springs, NC, 27540
                              herald@...

                              2) Apparently the Atlantian heralds have an email list, so you could
                              possibly subscribe to that and ask there.
                              To subscribe to the Atlantian Heralds E-mail List, send a blank email to:
                              AtlantianHeralds-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              3) Join the Merry Rose (Atlantia's official kingdom-wide mailing list) and
                              ask for help finding a local herald there.

                              4) Find the Herald's consult table at an event (they are at most of them)

                              Gaspar Marti


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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