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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Please be gentle!

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  • Karolyn
    Avalon, I recently attended my first event too, so I know what you are going through. To be honest, I got told that the garb I sewed was so nice everyone
    Message 1 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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      Avalon,

      I recently attended my first event too, so I know what
      you are going through. To be honest, I got told that
      the garb I sewed was so nice everyone assumed we were
      veterans, because we weren't wearing T-tunics and
      sweatpants. And trust me, I am NOT a particularly
      good seamstress. I had worked refaires, so I was
      expecting people to really be picky about being
      perfectly period and staying in persona every minute.
      It wasn't like that at all, a lot more fun than the
      renfaires in my opinon and MUCH more laid back. Don't
      stress about your clothes or your persona for your
      first event. Pick a first name, then go from there.
      The first name, you will probably get stuck with
      pretty quickly because that's how people will get to
      know you. I went to a SCA101 class and the Duke that
      taught it suggested that you start with just a first
      name, then take your time to choose the rest of your
      persona and garb.
      That being said, if you have time, do a little
      research into what you want to do. I especially
      reccomend the site
      http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/beginners/FirstGarb.html
      if you have any sewing ability at all. It's easy and
      something to help you get going. I found it really
      helpful. BUt people were really nice at our event,
      and really wiling ot help and office suggestions and
      advice, so just go and have fun, tell people you are
      new, look at what is there, and get ideas before you
      jump in. Remember that you are trying to make a
      reasonable effort to be period. That means you don't
      have to look perfect to start, but you should still do
      your best.
      Remember that I am new too, and YMMV, but that is what
      I found. Good luck!

      Elena

      --- Avalon Santana Zakazakina
      <sugarcrow69@...> wrote:

      > Help!
      >
      > I will be attending my first SCA event locally and I
      > do not want to
      > make a complete flub of it. I have only a "wench"
      > outfit that I
      > purchased at a Ren Faire to wear. Will that be "ok"
      > until I can nail
      > down a time period and start sewing a real outfit?
      >
      > Also, I know my name will be "Isabella" something,
      > can I introduce
      > myself simply as Isabella or Isabella the Midwife?
      > I want to start
      > out correctly and not pick a surname until I am sure
      > it is
      > historically correct. And does the "de" part of a
      > name mean from,
      > like Isabella de Suffolk?
      >
      > Thanks so much and I'm sure I will have more
      > questions!
      >
      > Avalon
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Karolyn
      ... *grin* Yeah, I jsut heard about a local guy whose name is whatchoo because when people asked his name he said call me what you will so his name is
      Message 2 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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        --- Keith Howard <khoward001@...> wrote:

        >
        > It is just fine to intriduce yourself as Isabella, I
        > might avoid saying
        > Isabella the Midwife because when you do pick a
        > surname people will still
        > call you Isabella the Midwife. Don't worry too much
        > about a surname.....one
        > will pick YOU. I know a fella named Tim the Just
        > because at his first event
        > he introduced himself as Tim... and when asked Tim
        > what he said just Tim.


        *grin* Yeah, I jsut heard about a local guy whose
        name is "whatchoo" because when people asked his name
        he said "call me what you will" so his name is
        Whatchoo Will.

        Elena
        >

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      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... You can certainly go ahead and introduce yourself as - in some form (it will vary some) the name is appropriate for England, France, Italy, and
        Message 3 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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          Quoth "Avalon Santana Zakazakina":
          > Also, I know my name will be "Isabella" something, can I introduce=20
          > myself simply as Isabella or Isabella the Midwife? I want to start=20
          > out correctly and not pick a surname until I am sure it is=20
          > historically correct.

          You can certainly go ahead and introduce yourself as <Isabella> -
          in some form (it will vary some) the name is appropriate for England,
          France, Italy, and Spain.

          Depending on what period you're interested in, a byname meaning
          'midwife' may be reasonable.

          For example, in Catalan, the word <partera>, meaning 'midwife', is
          recorded in 1296 (see "El Diccionari" (WWW: Enciclopedia Catalana,
          1997-2003) http://www.grec.net/home/cel/dicc.htm). While I haven't
          found any examples of this particular word being used as a byname,
          it's not an unreasonable choice. The Catalan form of <Isabella>
          is <Ysabel>; it's found 81 times in the 1510 census of Valencia
          (see "Catalan Names from the 1510 census of Valencia"
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/spanish/valencia1510.html)

          In English, I know of only one example of the word 'midwife' being
          used as a byname - <Johanna Mydwyff> in 1381 (see Carolyn C. Fenwick,
          ed., _The Poll Taxes of 1377, 1379, and 1381. Part 1, Bedfordshire -
          Leicestershire (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998), p.284.)
          Lots of various spellings of <Isabella> in English can be found
          here:

          Academy of S. Gabriel Report #2949
          http://www.s-gabriel.org/2949

          In Italian, <la Mammana> means 'the midwife' (this is found in
          Di Pasquale, Armando _Palermo nel 1480. La popolazione del quartiere
          della Kalsa_, Edizioni Mori, Palermo, 1975.) The same source has
          <Ysabella>.

          > And does the "de" part of a name mean from,=20
          > like Isabella de Suffolk?=20=20

          It's the Latin and French word for "of" or "from".

          Hope this helps!

          -Aryanhwy




          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • Avalon Zakazakina-Santana
          Jerusha; Yes, Avalon is my legal mundane name, but I changed it to that upon turning 18. When I found it in a book on English and Welsh mythology when I was
          Message 4 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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            Jerusha;
            Yes, Avalon is my legal mundane name, but I changed it to that upon turning 18. When I found it in a book on English and Welsh mythology when I was 8, I knew that was my true name. That is my own personal way of trying to be on the path to the knowledge and enlightment of Avalon, and not claiming to have actually gotten there. It is kind of like naming myself Heaven or Asgard or such, put I am not that full of myself as all that!

            I had wanted to chose a name close to my mundane name, since I did hand-pick it and all. I have even found record of Avelen, Avelin and Avelina in the late 1500's but I understand that names close to your mundane name will not be approved by SCA. Do you know anyone who has gotten around that?

            Thanks!





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          • Keith Howard
            It is my understanding that you can use and register one of your legal mundane names whether it is documentable or not. Examples would be using a family
            Message 5 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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              It is my understanding that you can use and register one of your legal
              mundane names whether it is documentable or not. Examples would be using a
              family surname or again going back to my example of Tim the Just, I believe
              his mundane name is actually Tim (but I am not positive so don't quote me on
              that)

              Aengus mac Farlane

              On 5/9/06, Avalon Zakazakina-Santana <sugarcrow69@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jerusha;
              > Yes, Avalon is my legal mundane name, but I changed it to that upon
              > turning 18. When I found it in a book on English and Welsh mythology when I
              > was 8, I knew that was my true name. That is my own personal way of trying
              > to be on the path to the knowledge and enlightment of Avalon, and not
              > claiming to have actually gotten there. It is kind of like naming myself
              > Heaven or Asgard or such, put I am not that full of myself as all that!
              >
              > I had wanted to chose a name close to my mundane name, since I did
              > hand-pick it and all. I have even found record of Avelen, Avelin and
              > Avelina in the late 1500's but I understand that names close to your mundane
              > name will not be approved by SCA. Do you know anyone who has gotten around
              > that?
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > SPONSORED LINKS
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              >
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              >
              >
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              >
              >
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              >
              >
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            • Susan B. Farmer
              ... I can tell you that I believe that you were misinformed. My understanding is that you can use *one* element of your legal name in your SCA name. I also
              Message 6 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                Quoting Avalon Zakazakina-Santana <sugarcrow69@...>:

                > Jerusha;
                > Yes, Avalon is my legal mundane name, but I changed it to that
                > upon turning 18. When I found it in a book on English and Welsh
                > mythology when I was 8, I knew that was my true name. That is my own
                > personal way of trying to be on the path to the knowledge and
                > enlightment of Avalon, and not claiming to have actually gotten
                > there. It is kind of like naming myself Heaven or Asgard or such,
                > put I am not that full of myself as all that!
                >
                > I had wanted to chose a name close to my mundane name, since I did
                > hand-pick it and all. I have even found record of Avelen, Avelin and
                > Avelina in the late 1500's but I understand that names close to your
                > mundane name will not be approved by SCA. Do you know anyone who has
                > gotten around that?
                >

                I can tell you that I believe that you were misinformed. My
                understanding is that you can use *one* element of your legal name in
                your SCA name. I also know that there are SCA Heralds on this list who
                will correct me if I'm wrong -- go with their advice! if your name is
                Susan Farmer :-) you could register Susan the Jeweler or Susan of Wales
                -- or you could be Eleanora the Farmer or Katherine Farmer -- just not
                Susan Famrer or Susannah the Farmer or ... You get the idea. So, yes,
                you can be Avelina. :-) I know an Avelina -- nifty lady. :-)

                Jerusha Kilgore
                -----
                Susan Farmer
                sfarmer@...
                University of Tennessee
                Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
              • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
                True...but it would need to be in the same place in your Society name as it is in your legal mundane name. There was a recent return where a submitter wanted
                Message 7 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                  True...but it would need to be in the same place in your Society name
                  as it is in your legal mundane name. There was a recent return where a
                  submitter wanted "Colleen" as their SCA given name, but the name is
                  their legal middle name...it was returned for this very reason.

                  On an interesting note, one of my Household sisters is tracking done a
                  period byname that sounds like "fer now" and looking at proposing this
                  for Holding Names...since so many people go by "John...for now" or
                  "Elizabeth...for now". *heh* I'm excited to see what she comes up
                  with and what Laurel has to say on the matter.

                  Giudo di Niccolo


                  On 5/9/06, Keith Howard <khoward001@...> wrote:
                  > It is my understanding that you can use and register one of your legal
                  > mundane names whether it is documentable or not. Examples would be using a
                  > family surname or again going back to my example of Tim the Just, I believe
                  > his mundane name is actually Tim (but I am not positive so don't quote me on
                  > that)
                  >
                  > Aengus mac Farlane
                • Kristine Elliott
                  The Rules for Submission (http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html) Part II.4. say : * 4. Legal Names. * - Elements of the submitters legal name may be used as
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                    The Rules for Submission (http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html) Part II.4.
                    say :

                    *"4. Legal Names. * - Elements of the submitters legal name may be used as
                    the corresponding part of a Society name, if such elements are not
                    excessively obtrusive and do not violate other sections of these rules.

                    This allows individuals to register elements of their legal name that cannot
                    be documented from period sources. The allowance is only made for the actual
                    legal name, not any variants. Someone whose legal given name is * Ruby * may
                    register * Ruby * as a Society given name, but not * Rubie * , * Rubyat * ,
                    or *Rube * . Corresponding elements are defined by their type, not solely
                    their position in the name. This means a person with the legal name * Andrew
                    Jackson * could use *Jackson * as a surname in his Society name in any
                    position where a surname is appropriate, such as *Raymond Jackson Turner *or
                    *Raymond Jackson of London * , not just as his last name element. "

                    The Administrative Handbook (http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html) Part
                    III.A.9 says:

                    "9. Name Used by the Submitter Outside the Society - No name will be
                    registered to a submitter if it is identical to a name used by the submitter
                    for purposes of identification outside of a Society context. This includes
                    legal names, common use names, trademarks and other items registered with
                    mundane authorities that serve to identify an individual or group. This
                    restriction is intended to help preserve a distinction between a submitter's
                    identity within the Society and his or her identity outside of the Society.
                    A small change in the name is sufficient for registration, such as the
                    addition of a syllable or a spelling change that changes the pronunciation.
                    However, a change to spelling without a change in pronunciation is not
                    sufficient. For example, Alan Miller could not register the name Alan Miller
                    or Allan Miller but he could register the name Alan the Miller. Further,
                    submitters may register either a name or armory which is a close variant of
                    a name or insignia they use outside the Society, but not both."

                    Scolastica

                    On 5/9/06, Avalon Zakazakina-Santana <sugarcrow69@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jerusha;
                    > Yes, Avalon is my legal mundane name, but I changed it to that upon
                    > turning 18. When I found it in a book on English and Welsh mythology when I
                    > was 8, I knew that was my true name. That is my own personal way of trying
                    > to be on the path to the knowledge and enlightment of Avalon, and not
                    > claiming to have actually gotten there. It is kind of like naming myself
                    > Heaven or Asgard or such, put I am not that full of myself as all that!
                    >
                    > I had wanted to chose a name close to my mundane name, since I did
                    > hand-pick it and all. I have even found record of Avelen, Avelin and
                    > Avelina in the late 1500's but I understand that names close to your mundane
                    > name will not be approved by SCA. Do you know anyone who has gotten around
                    > that?
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > Medieval and renaissance costume Medieval time dinner and
                    > tournament
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    --
                    http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                    If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least
                    teach
                    'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz


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                  • Avalon Zakazakina-Santana
                    Well, I am perfectly happy using a more historically acurate form of my name as my first name if I can do it, since I am already my own alter-ego! Thanks for
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                      Well, I am perfectly happy using a more historically acurate form of my name as my first name if I can do it, since I am already my own alter-ego! Thanks for that help!

                      I had one other question if anyone might know something - I am partial to a surname of "Ravens" if I can work it out. (Crow is my totem animal and that is my Rainbow name. Since all parts of my life are parts of the whole thing, I am trying to keep it all in the family. My claims to be a midwife eariler tie into my being a RN and a studen herbalist.) I know that Ravens is an acceptable surname from the late 1500's, but if I had my druthers I would like to be Avelina de Ravens if possible purely for beauty of sound. So my question is this: Does anyone know of an place called "Ravens" that I could claim to be "of"?




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                    • Keith Howard
                      I don t believe there is any rule that states if you are using de (place name) as your SCA last name that the place has to actually exist. There is no
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                        I don't believe there is any rule that states if you are using "de (place
                        name)" as your SCA last name that the place has to actually exist. There is
                        no possible way that there is a surviving record of each and ever village of
                        the time period we cover. Although they may hold you to period specific
                        naming conventions for villages etc. What I mean is "Ravenham" may be more
                        acceptable.

                        Aengus mac Farlane

                        On 5/9/06, Avalon Zakazakina-Santana <sugarcrow69@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well, I am perfectly happy using a more historically acurate form of my
                        > name as my first name if I can do it, since I am already my own alter-ego!
                        > Thanks for that help!
                        >
                        > I had one other question if anyone might know something - I am partial
                        > to a surname of "Ravens" if I can work it out. (Crow is my totem animal and
                        > that is my Rainbow name. Since all parts of my life are parts of the whole
                        > thing, I am trying to keep it all in the family. My claims to be a midwife
                        > eariler tie into my being a RN and a studen herbalist.) I know that Ravens
                        > is an acceptable surname from the late 1500's, but if I had my druthers I
                        > would like to be Avelina de Ravens if possible purely for beauty of sound.
                        > So my question is this: Does anyone know of an place called "Ravens" that I
                        > could claim to be "of"?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
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                      • Sara L Uckelman
                        ... Not exactly. Your legal given name can be used any place in a name where a given name is appropriate. Your legal surname can be used any place in a name
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                          Quoth "Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi":
                          > True...but it would need to be in the same place in your Society name
                          > as it is in your legal mundane name. There was a recent return where a
                          > submitter wanted "Colleen" as their SCA given name, but the name is
                          > their legal middle name...it was returned for this very reason.

                          Not exactly.

                          Your legal given name can be used any place in a name where a given
                          name is appropriate.

                          Your legal surname can be used any place in a name where a surname
                          is appropriate.

                          How your legal middle name can be used depends on what type it is.

                          For example, if your legal given name is <Maria>, you could register
                          <Anna Maria da Roma>, with <Maria> as a second given name. And if
                          your legal surname was <Smith>, you could register <John Smith the
                          Young>. Now, some modern middle names are based on given names, some
                          on surnames. For example, <Cameron> is often used as a given name
                          in modern times, but it was a byname during our period - so, if your
                          legal middle name was <Cameron>, you could register it as a surname,
                          but not as a given name. <Colleen> derives from a Gaelic nickname
                          meaning 'a young girl', and so in our period it wasn't a given name,
                          but a byname.

                          Hope this clarifies things!

                          -Aryanhwy



                          --
                          vita sine literis mors est
                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                        • Sara L Uckelman
                          ... Reaney & Wilson s _Dictionary of English Surnames_ has the following surnames with the element : s.n. Raven, either a given name or a nickname
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                            Quoth Avalon Zakazakina-Santana:
                            > ns is an acceptable surname from the late 1500's, but if I had my druthers =
                            > I would like to be Avelina de Ravens if possible purely for beauty of sound=
                            > . So my question is this: Does anyone know of an place called "Ravens" th=
                            > at I could claim to be "of"?=20=20

                            Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ has the following
                            surnames with the element <raven>:

                            s.n. Raven, either a given name or a nickname meaning 'raven'
                            <filius Reuene> 1086 'son of Reuen'
                            <Raven> 1133-60 (twice)
                            <Reven> 1279
                            <Ravenes> 1312
                            <le Reven> 1327 (twice, once for a woman)
                            <Revance> 1520
                            <Rivance> 1534
                            <atte Raven> 1344 (most likely from an inn with a raven on its sign)

                            s.n. Ravenhall 'raven-hill'
                            <de Rauenhull'> 1230

                            s.n. Ravenshaw 'raven-wood'
                            <de Ravenshagh> 1332
                            <Raynshae>, <Renshae> 1548, 1561
                            <Ravenshaw>, <Ramshaw> 1606, 1617
                            <Renshaw> 1613

                            s.n. Ravensthorpe
                            <de Ravenesthorpe> 1271-2
                            <de Raventhorpe> 1294
                            <de Raventhorp> 1348

                            The example of <Ravenes> from 1312 represents the possessive,
                            and not the plural, form of <Raven>, but it has the right sound
                            if that's important. Otherwise, while I haven't found a place
                            called <Ravens> (there aren't any in Watt's _Cambridge Dictionary
                            of English Place-Names_), <atte Raven> could be a possible alternative.
                            There are other place names with the element <raven> in them; if
                            you'd like the details, let me know.

                            -Aryanhwy





                            --
                            vita sine literis mors est
                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                          • Keith Howard
                            Sorry for the broken up double post but I just thought of this. If you want to use Ravens as part of your surname and use de to indicate it is a place, it may
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                              Sorry for the broken up double post but I just thought of this. If you want
                              to use Ravens as part of your surname and use de to indicate it is a place,
                              it may shound better as Isabella de Ravenston (instead of Ravenham... both
                              -ham and -ton are common European place indicaters)

                              Aengus mac Farlane


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Avalon Zakazakina-Santana
                              Thanks! That is a great compromise! I know from just a bit of reseach that places that people could not have been from, such as a mythological place like
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                Thanks! That is a great compromise!

                                I know from just a bit of reseach that places that people could not have been from, such as a mythological place like Avalon, get rejected because you can't be from a place that was not really there. But you suggestion is much more feasible.

                                Thanks everybody! There is such a huge amount of information out there to slog through, it sure helps to have you people who know what you are doing in my corner. Jeez, all this and I haven't even gone to an event! Good thing I dig history and dressing up or this might actually be a drag! :)




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Sara L Uckelman
                                ... Did you know that there was a real place in France during our period called ? I don t know where it is, but it s presence has been the basis for
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                  Quoth Avalon Zakazakina-Santana:
                                  > I know from just a bit of reseach that places that people could not have =
                                  > been from, such as a mythological place like Avalon, get rejected because y=
                                  > ou can't be from a place that was not really there. But you suggestion is =
                                  > much more feasible.=20=20

                                  Did you know that there was a real place in France during our
                                  period called <Avallon>? I don't know where it is, but it's
                                  presence has been the basis for the registration of various
                                  examples of <of Avalon> or <of Avallon>. :)

                                  -Aryanhwy



                                  --
                                  vita sine literis mors est
                                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                • Avalon Zakazakina-Santana
                                  Thanks, I did know of that place. Since my own lineage is English, Swedish and Russian, I am trying to keep my persona within those places. I figure a
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                    Thanks, I did know of that place. Since my own lineage is English, Swedish and Russian, I am trying to keep my persona within those places. I figure a Swedish-Russian father could have traveled to somewhere in England and shacked up with my mother. And viola', me! But I was happy to note that Avallon existed somewhere!

                                    And I know that I may be being too difficult with this whole thing, but so much of the information that I have seen about starting out with this tells me to start out correctly or I will get called something I don't want to be called or is wrong for my persona. And since I changed my name for real 18 years ago, and people who knew me before still call me by the old, ugly one, I want to do at least this right!




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Kristine Elliott
                                    ... People who treat you with respect, call you what you want to be called. People who treat me with disrespect by calling me by something that is no longer my
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                      On 5/9/06, Avalon Zakazakina-Santana <sugarcrow69@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks, I did know of that place. Since my own lineage is English,
                                      > Swedish and Russian, I am trying to keep my persona within those places. I
                                      > figure a Swedish-Russian father could have traveled to somewhere in England
                                      > and shacked up with my mother. And viola', me! But I was happy to note
                                      > that Avallon existed somewhere!
                                      >
                                      > And I know that I may be being too difficult with this whole thing, but
                                      > so much of the information that I have seen about starting out with this
                                      > tells me to start out correctly or I will get called something I don't want
                                      > to be called or is wrong for my persona. And since I changed my name for
                                      > real 18 years ago, and people who knew me before still call me by the old,
                                      > ugly one, I want to do at least this right!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      People who treat you with respect, call you what you want to be called.
                                      People who treat me with disrespect by calling me by something that is no
                                      longer my name, I disrespect in turn. I just changed my SCA name after being
                                      in the Society for 22 years, and most people I know make the effort to use
                                      my new name. It is simple politeness and thank goodness the people I know
                                      and work with ARE polite.

                                      By all means, chose your name with care, but don't be afraid to change it if
                                      you find it doesn't suit you.

                                      Scolastica

                                      (Cateline from 1987 to 2005 and Triste between 1983 and 1987)


                                      --
                                      http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                                      If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least
                                      teach
                                      'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jeff Suzuki
                                      ... You can also simply use a name without registering it. I ve been in for 16 years now, and have yet to register a name or device. (Good God, 16 years...time
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                        --- Keith Howard <khoward001@...> wrote:

                                        > It is my understanding that you can use and register
                                        > one of your legal
                                        > mundane names whether it is documentable or not.

                                        You can also simply use a name without registering it.
                                        I've been in for 16 years now, and have yet to
                                        register a name or device.

                                        (Good God, 16 years...time does fly)

                                        Jeffs/etc.

                                        __________________________________________________
                                        Do You Yahoo!?
                                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                                      • David Roland
                                        I would think that as long as your mundane names ARE period it shouldn t matter one way or the other. I m not saying it doesn t just that logically it
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 9, 2006
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                                          I would think that as long as your mundane names ARE period it
                                          shouldn't matter one way or the other. I'm not saying it doesn't
                                          just that logically it shouldn't.

                                          Me for example.

                                          David - Highly documentable as a period name.

                                          Ian - Again, Highly documentable as a period name.

                                          Roland - Wow, son of Charlemagne if I remember correctly, Song of
                                          Roland... very documentable.

                                          I should be able to use any and each of them as my SCA name wherever
                                          I want to because they are documentable. Not because they are my
                                          name.

                                          So I have Ian the Green as my name.

                                          I will likely have to register it as Ian Grene I have been told
                                          though.

                                          So goes the game.

                                          Ian


                                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Suzuki <jeff_suzuki@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- Keith Howard <khoward001@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > It is my understanding that you can use and register
                                          > > one of your legal
                                          > > mundane names whether it is documentable or not.
                                          >
                                          > You can also simply use a name without registering it.
                                          > I've been in for 16 years now, and have yet to
                                          > register a name or device.
                                          >
                                          > (Good God, 16 years...time does fly)
                                          >
                                          > Jeffs/etc.
                                          >
                                          > __________________________________________________
                                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                          >
                                        • Sara L Uckelman
                                          ... Though only in Russian and Dutch, did you know that? People commonly think of it as Scottish or Gaelic, but that spelling wasn t actually used in Scotland
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 10, 2006
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                                            Quoth "David Roland":
                                            > Ian - Again, Highly documentable as a period name.

                                            Though only in Russian and Dutch, did you know that? People
                                            commonly think of it as Scottish or Gaelic, but that spelling
                                            wasn't actually used in Scotland during our period. The
                                            article "Concerning the Names Iain, Ian, and Eoin" contains
                                            lots of interesting information about the development of the
                                            spellings <Iain> and <Ian>. It's at:
                                            http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/iain.shtml

                                            -Aryanhwy




                                            --
                                            vita sine literis mors est
                                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                          • johnr_econ
                                            What about variations or uses of eagle wolf or bear ? These are my presonal, line, and clan totems, respectfully, and I woud like to use somehow. Also
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 10, 2006
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                                              What about variations or uses of "eagle" "wolf" or "bear"? These are
                                              my presonal, line, and clan totems, respectfully, and I woud like to
                                              use somehow. Also where could I find that dictionary mentioned
                                              herein? Or possibly scandinavian or germanic versions?

                                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Quoth Avalon Zakazakina-Santana:
                                              > > ns is an acceptable surname from the late 1500's, but if I had my
                                              druthers =
                                              > > I would like to be Avelina de Ravens if possible purely for
                                              beauty of sound=
                                              > > . So my question is this: Does anyone know of an place
                                              called "Ravens" th=
                                              > > at I could claim to be "of"?=20=20
                                              >
                                              > Reaney & Wilson's _Dictionary of English Surnames_ has the following
                                              > surnames with the element <raven>:
                                              >
                                              > s.n. Raven, either a given name or a nickname meaning 'raven'
                                              > <filius Reuene> 1086 'son of Reuen'
                                              > <Raven> 1133-60 (twice)
                                              > <Reven> 1279
                                              > <Ravenes> 1312
                                              > <le Reven> 1327 (twice, once for a woman)
                                              > <Revance> 1520
                                              > <Rivance> 1534
                                              > <atte Raven> 1344 (most likely from an inn with a raven on its sign)
                                              >
                                              > s.n. Ravenhall 'raven-hill'
                                              > <de Rauenhull'> 1230
                                              >
                                              > s.n. Ravenshaw 'raven-wood'
                                              > <de Ravenshagh> 1332
                                              > <Raynshae>, <Renshae> 1548, 1561
                                              > <Ravenshaw>, <Ramshaw> 1606, 1617
                                              > <Renshaw> 1613
                                              >
                                              > s.n. Ravensthorpe
                                              > <de Ravenesthorpe> 1271-2
                                              > <de Raventhorpe> 1294
                                              > <de Raventhorp> 1348
                                              >
                                              > The example of <Ravenes> from 1312 represents the possessive,
                                              > and not the plural, form of <Raven>, but it has the right sound
                                              > if that's important. Otherwise, while I haven't found a place
                                              > called <Ravens> (there aren't any in Watt's _Cambridge Dictionary
                                              > of English Place-Names_), <atte Raven> could be a possible
                                              alternative.
                                              > There are other place names with the element <raven> in them; if
                                              > you'd like the details, let me know.
                                              >
                                              > -Aryanhwy
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > vita sine literis mors est
                                              > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                              >
                                            • Sara L Uckelman
                                              ... In English - Reaney & Wilson s.n. has 1230 and 1297, both nicknames from the bird. S.n. Bear there is
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 10, 2006
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                                                Quoth "johnr_econ":
                                                > What about variations or uses of "eagle" "wolf" or "bear"? These are
                                                > my presonal, line, and clan totems, respectfully, and I woud like to
                                                > use somehow.

                                                In English - Reaney & Wilson s.n. has <Egle> 1230 and <le Egle> 1297,
                                                both nicknames from the bird. S.n. Bear there is <Vrs'> 1130, <le
                                                Bere> 1166, <Bere> 1177, <le Urs> 1219, <le Beer> 1296 - <urs> is
                                                the Old French word for for 'bear'. S.n. Wolf there is <le Wolf>
                                                1279, and the entry also says "<Wolf> as a surname is very seldom
                                                without the article <le> in the 13th and 14th centuries." So,
                                                any of these would be appropriate English surnames for the 12th-
                                                14th C.

                                                > Also where could I find that dictionary mentioned
                                                > herein?

                                                Most libraries will have a copy, probably in the reference
                                                department. It's also available pretty cheaply through
                                                Amazon.com

                                                > Or possibly scandinavian or germanic versions?

                                                For Old Norse bynames, you can take a look at
                                                "Viking Bynames found in the Landn��mab��k"
                                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/vikbynames.html

                                                The German word for 'eagle' is <adler>. Academy of S.
                                                Gabriel Report #2668 (www.s-gabriel.org/2668) says:

                                                "In late medieval and renaissance Germany, it was common for the urban
                                                wealthy to decorate their houses with distinctive symbols, often
                                                animals, to identify them. These marks served much the same purpose
                                                as modern street addresses, and the houses were often refered to
                                                simply by the symbol, e.g. "the ship", "the lion", "the rose". The
                                                German surname <Adler> originally derived from such a house name; a
                                                person living at or near a house known "The Eagle" might have been
                                                described as <ze dem adelar> or <zem Adelar> "at the Eagle" or <der
                                                adeler> "the Eagle-man". We find this surname in several similar
                                                forms throughout the 14th century [6, 11]. <Adler> appears on its own
                                                as a surname in 1392, 1395, and 1414 [7]."

                                                The same holds for <ba"r> 'bear' (where a" represents an a-umlaut).
                                                Bahlow's _Dictionary of German Names_ s.n. Ba"r notes <Drewes to
                                                dem beren> 1435.

                                                There are also examples of <Wolf> or <Wolff> being used as a
                                                surname in later-period Germany (see "German Names from Kulmbach,
                                                1495" http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/kulmbach1495.html
                                                and "German Names from N��rnberg, 1497"
                                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/nurnberg1497.html), but
                                                in these cases, it's hard to tell whether this is from the word for
                                                'wolf', or a nickname from a name like <Wolfgang>.

                                                Hope this helps!

                                                -Aryanhwy




                                                --
                                                vita sine literis mors est
                                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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