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  • jayden_butterfly
    Hello all! I am a newcomer to SCA and a newcomer to this group. My persona isn t completely developed yet, however, I am a Romany woman (or gypsy). Are
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 16, 2006
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      Hello all! I am a newcomer to SCA and a newcomer to this group. My
      persona isn't completely developed yet, however, I am a Romany woman
      (or gypsy). Are there any other gypsies on this group that could help
      with some of my questions regarding period garb and personas?

      Thanks!
      Jayden...
    • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
      Greetings Jayden...and welcome to the SCA! Have you thought about what time period or culture your Romany persona would be from? The one thing I know from
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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        Greetings Jayden...and welcome to the SCA!

        Have you thought about what time period or culture your Romany persona would
        be from? The one thing I know from others who have researched gypsy
        costuming is that more often than not, they would wear the garb of the
        culture they were in at the time. [[This makes it a good thing if you like
        to wear all types of garb from all possible cultures.]] However, picking a
        starting place and time may help you get started on finding the right kind
        of garb for yourself.

        I'll have to speak with Kocho (my local gypsy expert) to get more
        information on links and costuming information. But I also know there is an
        SCA Gypsy mailing list on Yahoo:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_Gypsy/

        Until the next time,
        Signore Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
        Shire of Deodar, Kingdom of Calontir


        On 2/16/06, jayden_butterfly <jayden_butterfly@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello all! I am a newcomer to SCA and a newcomer to this group. My
        > persona isn't completely developed yet, however, I am a Romany woman
        > (or gypsy). Are there any other gypsies on this group that could help
        > with some of my questions regarding period garb and personas?
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Jayden...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Janelle W.
        Thanks for the welcome, Giudo! I am thinking about going for the Ottoman Empire time period (specifically the 1500 s) and I would like to hail from Bulgaria.
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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          Thanks for the welcome, Giudo!

          I am thinking about going for the Ottoman Empire time period (specifically the 1500's) and I would like to hail from Bulgaria. I have been working on picking my names (I know that the Romany people had one name for themsleves that they kept within the group and a seperate name for outsiders to call them by.)

          I am part of a belly dancing troupe and that is how I got started in the SCA. I don't know how much research they have put into their costumes (we really just wear our tribal style belly dance costumes toned down a bit) or into their personas but I was wondering, do you each pick your own persona alone or do you consult with the group of people that you are with in the SCA? Do you make your story or do you tie it in with those in your group?

          Any advice on how things are run and work in the SCA would be rather helpful.

          Thanks, Jayden...

          Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi <giudo.brunelleschi@...> wrote:
          Greetings Jayden...and welcome to the SCA!

          Have you thought about what time period or culture your Romany persona would
          be from? The one thing I know from others who have researched gypsy
          costuming is that more often than not, they would wear the garb of the
          culture they were in at the time. [[This makes it a good thing if you like
          to wear all types of garb from all possible cultures.]] However, picking a
          starting place and time may help you get started on finding the right kind
          of garb for yourself.


          ---------------------------------
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
          For myself, my persona was something I chose on my own. But then again...being a single, college student at the time made it that way. I know of a couple
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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            For myself, my persona was something I chose on my own. But then
            again...being a single, college student at the time made it that way.

            I know of a couple families that have gone the route of choosing a time
            period and culture for the entire family...including one surname for
            everyone to use. I also know of families that picked their own individual
            personas and then tried to mesh stories afterwards. And then there are those
            families where everyone has their own persona and has their own story...and
            their persona stories have nothing in common or to do with the rest of their
            family.

            In essence, it's whatever you feel the most comfortable with. You might
            start off with a persona that is part of this particular troupe...but as
            time goes on, you may find that you end up developing your persona outside
            of the troupe view. Either way is perfectly acceptable.

            Until the next time,
            Giudo di Niccolo
            [[who is waiting for more gypsy information from Kocho]]


            On 2/17/06, Janelle W. <jayden_butterfly@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am part of a belly dancing troupe and that is how I got started in the
            > SCA. I don't know how much research they have put into their costumes (we
            > really just wear our tribal style belly dance costumes toned down a bit) or
            > into their personas but I was wondering, do you each pick your own persona
            > alone or do you consult with the group of people that you are with in the
            > SCA? Do you make your story or do you tie it in with those in your group?


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Janelle W.
            Thanks! Like I said before, I have no idea how far the ladies in my troupe have researched their personas. And I have a while to figure out mine (I haven t
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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              Thanks! Like I said before, I have no idea how far the ladies in my troupe have researched their personas. And I have a while to figure out mine (I haven't sent in the membership form for the SCA yet!). I just keep hearing about all of the stories behind the personas of people that I meet and I would like to create one for myself as well. I think that I will just figure out my persona on my own and then try to mesh it with theirs at a later date and time.

              Where are you from, Giudo? I reside in the Shire of Schattentor, in the Kingdom of Northsheild (Black Hills, South Dakota). My troup and I are planning a trip to the Kingdom of the Outlands for their Grand Outlandish Event in May. I am really excited to be going. The events that we have here in Northsheild are rather small, so I am ready for something a bit larger.

              Jidikhibnas, Jayden...


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            • Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
              I m in the Shire of Deodar, Kingdom of Calontir. Sooo...HELLO Neighbor! *heh* Hrm...you want a larger event? You could always come to Lilies War in June;
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                I'm in the Shire of Deodar, Kingdom of Calontir. Sooo...HELLO Neighbor!
                *heh*

                Hrm...you want a larger event? You could always come to Lilies War in June;
                that's a nice sized event..averages ~1400 people lately. And this year's
                theme should be entertaining: The Laurels versus The Pelicans. [[I'm quite
                excited to see the Laurel sponsored "101 Things To Do With a Dead Bird"
                competition.]]

                (Lilies will be interesting for me with this theme: I'm in a Household
                headed by a Pelican, but in a month, I'll be apprenticed to a Laurel. And
                since I'll have duty to side with my Laurel...I'll be only person in a
                Household of 50 NOT on the side of the Pelicans. *snickers* Oooo...I'm such
                a bad, bad child.)

                ANYwho...if you'd like to see one example of what someone has for a persona,
                I've got my brief persona story posted to my personal SCA page:
                http://www.geocities.com/purplellamaboi/giudo.html

                Please note that the page may be slow to load, as I have some images of one
                completed glasswork project (some veil pins I made for the Calontir Online
                Auction this past year). So if you have dial-up, you might not like this
                page. *heh*

                Until the next time,
                Giudo di Niccolo


                On 2/17/06, Janelle W. <jayden_butterfly@...> wrote:
                >
                > Where are you from, Giudo? I reside in the Shire of Schattentor, in the
                > Kingdom of Northsheild (Black Hills, South Dakota). My troup and I are
                > planning a trip to the Kingdom of the Outlands for their Grand Outlandish
                > Event in May. I am really excited to be going. The events that we have
                > here in Northsheild are rather small, so I am ready for something a bit
                > larger.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sydney Walker Freedman
                Greetings! ! I also reside in the Kingdom of Northshield. I live in the Canton of Nordleigh (Northfield, Minnesota). Will you be attending any events soon?
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                  Greetings!
                  !

                  I also reside in the Kingdom of Northshield. I live in the Canton of
                  Nordleigh (Northfield, Minnesota). Will you be attending any events
                  soon?

                  > Thanks! Like I said before, I have no idea how far the ladies in my
                  > troupe have researched their personas. And I have a while to figure
                  > out mine (I haven't sent in the membership form for the SCA yet!). I
                  > just keep hearing about all of the stories behind the personas of
                  > people that I meet and I would like to create one for myself as well.
                  > I think that I will just figure out my persona on my own and then try
                  > to mesh it with theirs at a later date and time.
                  >
                  > Where are you from, Giudo? I reside in the Shire of Schattentor, in
                  > the Kingdom of Northsheild (Black Hills, South Dakota). My troup and I
                  > are planning a trip to the Kingdom of the Outlands for their Grand
                  > Outlandish Event in May. I am really excited to be going. The events
                  > that we have here in Northsheild are rather small, so I am ready for
                  > something a bit larger.
                  >
                  > Jidikhibnas, Jayden...
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Brings words and photos together (easily) with
                  > PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > Medieval and renaissance costume
                  > Society for creative anachronism
                  > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >


                  Pax Christi,
                  Sydney
                • Janelle W.
                  Lacshi Tirat! At this time I have plans to attend Quest for Camelot and Grand Outlandish. Some of my fellow troupe members will also be performing at the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                    Lacshi Tirat! At this time I have plans to attend Quest for Camelot and Grand Outlandish. Some of my fellow troupe members will also be performing at the Sioux Falls Renn Faire, I believe. No other plans as of right now, but that can change quickly. We have many performances scheduled for around this area, that travelling throughout the summer months will be difficult. Do you attend many events?

                    Jidikhibnas, Jayden...


                    Sydney Walker Freedman <freedmas@...> wrote:
                    Greetings!
                    !

                    I also reside in the Kingdom of Northshield. I live in the Canton of
                    Nordleigh (Northfield, Minnesota). Will you be attending any events
                    soon?

                    > Thanks! Like I said before, I have no idea how far the ladies in my
                    > troupe have researched their personas. And I have a while to figure
                    > out mine (I haven't sent in the membership form for the SCA yet!). I
                    > just keep hearing about all of the stories behind the personas of
                    > people that I meet and I would like to create one for myself as well.
                    > I think that I will just figure out my persona on my own and then try
                    > to mesh it with theirs at a later date and time.
                    >
                    > Where are you from, Giudo? I reside in the Shire of Schattentor, in
                    > the Kingdom of Northsheild (Black Hills, South Dakota). My troup and I
                    > are planning a trip to the Kingdom of the Outlands for their Grand
                    > Outlandish Event in May. I am really excited to be going. The events
                    > that we have here in Northsheild are rather small, so I am ready for
                    > something a bit larger.
                    >
                    > Jidikhibnas, Jayden...
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Brings words and photos together (easily) with
                    > PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > Medieval and renaissance costume
                    > Society for creative anachronism
                    > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >


                    Pax Christi,
                    Sydney



                    SPONSORED LINKS
                    Medieval and renaissance costume Society for creative anachronism Medieval time dinner and tournament

                    ---------------------------------
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                    Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Janelle W.
                    Maybe one of these years I will be able to attend Lilies War, however, it is not in the cards for this year. Which is rather a sad state, as I would love to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                      Maybe one of these years I will be able to attend Lilies War, however, it is not in the cards for this year. Which is rather a sad state, as I would love to see the dead bird competition. You will just have to update me on how extraordinarily fun that was.

                      Just to set myself straight-Pelicans are those who serve in the positions of record-keepers and the like and Laurels are in the creative fields (such as the dancers, musicians, and glasswork, as you said). Am I correct?

                      I checked out your web page. Quite an interesting story behind your persona. I was rather impressed at the thought that must have gone into creating such a character. Thank you for sharing. It will help me to develop the intricasies of my own persona.

                      Jidikhibnas, Jayden...




                      ---------------------------------
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                    • Sydney Walker Freedman
                      I will be at several events within the Barony of Nordskogen, and I think the next kingdom event I will be at is the crown tournament in May. (or is it in
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 17, 2006
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                        I will be at several events within the Barony of Nordskogen, and I think
                        the next kingdom event I will be at is the crown tournament in May. (or is
                        it in April?). I hope to run into you at some point (I'm blind and might
                        literally run into you :) ).

                        Pax Christi
                        Cecilia de Cambrige

                        > Lacshi Tirat! At this time I have plans to attend Quest for Camelot
                        > and Grand Outlandish. Some of my fellow troupe members will also be
                        > performing at the Sioux Falls Renn Faire, I believe. No other plans
                        > as of right now, but that can change quickly. We have many
                        > performances scheduled for around this area, that travelling
                        > throughout the summer months will be difficult. Do you attend many
                        > events?
                        >
                        > Jidikhibnas, Jayden...
                        >
                        >
                        > Sydney Walker Freedman wrote:
                        > Greetings!
                        > !
                        >
                        > I also reside in the Kingdom of Northshield. I live in the Canton
                        > of
                        > Nordleigh (Northfield, Minnesota). Will you be attending any events
                        > soon?
                        >
                        > > Thanks! Like I said before, I have no idea how far the ladies in
                        > my
                        > > troupe have researched their personas. And I have a while to figure
                        > > out mine (I haven't sent in the membership form for the SCA yet!). I
                        > > just keep hearing about all of the stories behind the personas of
                        > > people that I meet and I would like to create one for myself as well.
                        > > I think that I will just figure out my persona on my own and then try
                        > > to mesh it with theirs at a later date and time.
                        > >
                        > > Where are you from, Giudo? I reside in the Shire of Schattentor, in
                        > > the Kingdom of Northsheild (Black Hills, South Dakota). My troup and I
                        > > are planning a trip to the Kingdom of the Outlands for their Grand
                        > > Outlandish Event in May. I am really excited to be going. The events
                        > > that we have here in Northsheild are rather small, so I am ready for
                        > > something a bit larger.
                        > >
                        > > Jidikhibnas, Jayden...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Brings words and photos together (easily) with
                        > > PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > SPONSORED LINKS
                        > > Medieval and renaissance costume
                        > > Society for creative anachronism
                        > > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        > > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > Pax Christi,
                        > Sydney
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS
                        > Medieval and renaissance costume Society for creative
                        > anachronism Medieval time dinner and tournament
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more
                        > on new and used cars.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS
                        > Medieval and renaissance costume
                        > Society for creative anachronism
                        > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >


                        Pax Christi,
                        Sydney
                      • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                        ... Mostly, yes. :-) Titles, Awards, and Offices 101: A bit longer than strictly needed, but since this is the Newcomers List, it seems sensible to elaborate
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 21, 2006
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                          On Friday 17 February 2006 19:01, Janelle W. wrote:
                          > Just to set myself straight-Pelicans are those who serve in the
                          > positions of record-keepers and the like and Laurels are in the
                          > creative fields (such as the dancers, musicians, and glasswork,
                          > as you said).  Am I correct?

                          Mostly, yes. :-)

                          Titles, Awards, and Offices 101: A bit longer than strictly needed, but
                          since this is the Newcomers' List, it seems sensible to elaborate on the
                          topic for the benefit of others....



                          There are three levels of Arms (that is, being armigerous) in the SCA.
                          These are the Award of Arms (AoA), the Grant of Arms (GoA), and the Patent
                          of Arms (PoA), in order from lowest to highest. For the first two, most
                          kingdoms have not only that level of award and title, but also one or more
                          other awards that convey that level of status. For example, here in the
                          Middle Kingdom we have an award called the Award of the Purple Fret (for
                          general service) that conveys an AoA if the person didn't already have
                          one, and an award called the Order of the Evergreen (for arts and sciences)
                          that conveys a GoA if the person didn't already have one. (There are others;
                          these are just two examples, and they are specific to the Middle Kingdom.)

                          The third and highest category, the Patent of Arms, is commonly referred to
                          as a Peerage. The SCA has four kinds of peerage orders:

                          * Royal Peers are those who have served as King or Queen and are honored
                          with titles like Duke or Duchess, Count or Countess (perhaps some variance
                          by kingdom). Royal Peers are just ahead of the other three peerages in
                          precedence. The other three that follow, however, are all exactly equal in
                          precedence. All of the peerages are *below* the currently-seated royalty
                          (King, Queen, Prince, Princess) in rank.

                          * Knights and Masters-At-Arms are those who are given a peerage for prowess
                          and chivalry in the martial endeavors (especially armoured combat, in most
                          kingdoms). The two are of equal rank, and are addressed as "Sir ..." or
                          "Dame ..." (women may choose to use "Sir" if they wish). The only difference
                          is that a Knight is one who swears fealty to the Crown, and a Master-At-
                          Arms is one who elects not to do so. (Swearing fealty is strictly voluntary
                          for everyone except landed nobility.) A Master-At-Arms is addressed as
                          "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}" rather than "Sir" or "Dame". Knights
                          and Masters-At-Armed are collectively referred to as the "Chivalry" or
                          the "Orders of Chivalry".

                          * Companions of the Order of the Laurel (called "Laurels" for short) are
                          those who are given a peerage for proficiency and willingness to teach
                          in the diverse arts and sciences -- that is, practical skills and crafts,
                          including research, performing arts, fine arts, and related areas. In
                          short, these are people who make things authentically and teach others
                          to do so. Laurels are addressed as "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}",
                          and fealty is optional and does not change the title. One typically is
                          referred to as being a Laurel "in" a particular creative field or trade,
                          but the actual title encompasses all areas. In other words, once you are
                          a Laurel in (say) woodworking, you don't get another Laurel even if you
                          become extremely skilled at other fields of endeavor (say, costuming).

                          * Companions of the Order of the Pelican (called "Pelicans" for short) are
                          those who receive a peerage for service, which can be in any area. Much
                          of the time, Pelicans go to people who do a lot of adminstrative work
                          such as holding offices, organizing fundraisers and service projects,
                          and so on. Thus, the Pelican functions as a kind of "catch-all" for people
                          who contribute to the organization but don't fit one of the other two
                          categories. Pelicans are addressed as "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}"
                          just like Laurels, with fealty optional and not changing the title.

                          There is some overlap. For example, a person who makes beautiful illuminated
                          scrolls and teaches others may receive a Laurel in scribal arts. But if
                          that same person donates a multidude of scrolls to the kingdom, year after
                          year, they may also be recognized as a Pelican for sheer quantity of service.
                          Likewise, I know a gentleman who has received a Pelican for his extensive
                          service as a Marshal (referee and trainer) in armoured combat, even though
                          he is not (yet) a Knight. He was recognized for his quantity and quality
                          of service, and it just happens that service is in the martial area.

                          A person can have more than one peerage -- there are a few who have all four!
                          But you can only get each category of peerage once. In the most technical
                          terms, the titles "pile up" so that a quadruple-peer might be known as
                          "Her Grace, Dame Mistress Mistress Whooziz of Whatchacallit". This may be
                          permissible, but it's generally regarded as being a bit gauche to pile-on
                          the titles that way. Most people use either (1) their highest title or
                          (2) their favorite title, of the ones to which they're entitled. I know some
                          peers who prefer to be called "Baron(ess) {name}" even though that is a lower
                          rank than a peer -- just because they like the historical sound of it. :-)

                          The specific officer to whom you refer who keeps records is generally either
                          the Chronicler or the Historian (for non-financial records), or the
                          Exchequer (for financial records), or the Quartermaster (for keeping track
                          of group property such as cook gear for feasts). My lady wife, Milica, has
                          served as a Chronicler for a very long time, so I'll defer to her for
                          a more detailed explanation of that office. :-)

                          Incidentally, the offices one holds are generally temporary, and are thought
                          of (in some sense) as being "outside the game" in that they don't convey
                          rank or title. For instance, at the moment I am a deputy to an officer
                          at the corporate level -- that's pretty high up -- but I don't wear a crown
                          or have people bowing to me or sit at high table at feasts, because what
                          I do is a modern-world administrative job. In fact, the people I work with
                          in that capacity call each other by modern-world names, not even using our
                          SCA names or titles, because it's just a job and not part of the game.

                          The in-game titles, however, such as the AoA, GoA, and peerages, are
                          usually permanent and *do* convey a status or rank within the game realm.
                          So my good lady wife, for instance, who has a Grant of Arms, is entitled
                          to be called "Your Ladyship Milica" or "The Honorable Lady Milica"
                          regardless of whether she currently holds an office or not. When she
                          served as Kingdom Chronicler a couple of years ago, that didn't come with
                          a lot of in-game presence because she, like myself now, was working in
                          the modern-world administrative part of the SCA. So the two worlds
                          coexist but are largely independent of one another.

                          The three other things I should point out, having introduced the peerages
                          above, are:

                          1. The SCA's concept of peerage isn't very accurate compared to actual
                          historical precedent. In the SCA, the title of "Lord..." or "Lady ..."
                          is conferred by an Award of Arms, and is considered the entry-level
                          title. In England, however, "Lord" or "Lady" is a rather high title,
                          actually above a Knight.

                          2. Contrary to many new members' instincts, SCA peerages don't convey any
                          authority or power the way a Royal title does. You don't have to bow
                          to a Laurel or Pelican or Knight, and they don't have the right to
                          order anyone around. You may, unfortunately, run into a towering ego
                          now and then who think they can (this is the exception, not the rule,
                          but there are always a few bad apples in any bushel). Ignore them.
                          A peerage title is a mark of respect, and a token of obligation to
                          further service, not a rank of command.

                          3. Peers are (in most kingdoms) allowed to use an alternative title that
                          fits their persona's native language, as long as its historical
                          meaning is roughly equivalent to the official title of their peerage.
                          For instance, a Knight with Middle Eastern persona may choose to call
                          himself an Emir rather than a Knight. In my case, I chose the title
                          of Maistor (which roughly translates as Professor), because translating
                          Master into Greek becomes Magister, and in my time period that was a
                          civil judge or other high government official -- a title I deemed far
                          too presumptuous.

                          The Award of Arms turns one from "M'Lord {name}" or "M'Lady {name}" into
                          "Lord {name}" or "Lady {name}". A Grant of Arms conveys the title of
                          "His/Her Lordship/Ladyship {name}" or "The Honorable Lord/Lady {name}",
                          and is commonly abbreviated as "THL {name}".

                          Kings and Queens are "Your Majesty" or "Their Majesties" or "Their Royal
                          Majesties" (this last for formal occasions). Princesses and Princes are
                          "Their Highnesses" or "Their Royal Highnesses". You'll sometimes see
                          these titles abbreviated as HRM for His/Her Royal Majesty, TRM for Their
                          Royal Majesties, HRH or TRH for His/Her Royal Highness or Their Royal
                          Highnesses.

                          Dukes and Duchesses (those who have been King or Queen at least twice)
                          are Your Grace, and Counts and Countesses (those who have been King or
                          Queen once) are Your Excellency.

                          Barons and Baronesses are Your Excellency also. There are two kinds of
                          these: landed and court. Landed Barons and Baronesses are those who rule
                          as vassals to the King and Queen over a defined territory. Court Barons
                          and Baronesses are an honorific title granted at the whim of the King and
                          Queen.

                          There are a few other specialized royalty and nobility titles, but these
                          are the basics.

                          Now, before you decide this is all too complicated, let me boil it down
                          to some very, VERY simple guidelines:

                          1. If you see someone with a crown, you are basically safe in addressing
                          them as Your Excellency until you know their correct title. If they
                          are a Grace, Highness, etc., they may gently point this out. But
                          Your Excellency is a title of high respect, and as a new person you
                          will not give offense by using it for anyone with a "shiny brass hat".
                          (In fact, the crowns vary so much between kingdoms that even those
                          of us who've been around for years still goof now and then...it's okay.)

                          2. Give a short bow or curtsey to anyone you meet or pass who's wearing a
                          crown, unless the crown is large enough that they are obviously high
                          Royalty, in which case show a deeper deference (longer and/or deeper
                          bow). Take your cue from those around you, and you'll be fine. If the
                          person isn't wearing a crown, then you don't have to bow to them, because
                          all the "bowing" titles convey a brass hat in most kingdoms. However,
                          you can offer a short bow or curtsey to anyone you like, as a gesture
                          of person-to-person respectful greeting (like a courtly salute).

                          3. Treat everyone with respect and courtesy regardless of their title, and
                          you will not offend anyone. The courtesy titles of "My Lord" or "My
                          Lady" are correct for *anyone* in the SCA -- up to and including Royalty --
                          if you do not know their formal title. It is their responsiblity to either
                          courteously provide you the missing information, or to decide that
                          they don't care whether you use their title or not. If you call someone
                          "My Lord" or "My Lady", and they don't tell you differently, then you
                          may assume they are happy with it. It's really about *respect* and not
                          about *title deference*, and respect applies at all levels both above
                          and below yours. :-)

                          I hope this is helpful.

                          Justin

                          --
                          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                          keys fesswise reversed sable.

                          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                          ... For another example, here s my (Byzantine) persona in brief: http://erevnite.4th.com/justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 21, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Friday 17 February 2006 19:01, Janelle W. wrote:
                            > I checked out your web page.  Quite an interesting story behind your
                            > persona. [...]

                            For another example, here's my (Byzantine) persona in brief:

                            http://erevnite.4th.com/justin

                            --
                            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                            keys fesswise reversed sable.

                            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                          • Janelle W.
                            Thank you so much for this very lengthy lesson :) It has proved very helpful to me as I was quite worried about knowing when to bow and what to call people at
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thank you so much for this very lengthy lesson :) It has proved very helpful to me as I was quite worried about knowing when to bow and what to call people at events. It is nice to have it put into terms that I can comprehend and remember. Thank you again!

                              Jayden...

                              Iustinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                              On Friday 17 February 2006 19:01, Janelle W. wrote:
                              > Just to set myself straight-Pelicans are those who serve in the
                              > positions of record-keepers and the like and Laurels are in the
                              > creative fields (such as the dancers, musicians, and glasswork,
                              > as you said). Am I correct?

                              Mostly, yes. :-)

                              Titles, Awards, and Offices 101: A bit longer than strictly needed, but
                              since this is the Newcomers' List, it seems sensible to elaborate on the
                              topic for the benefit of others....



                              There are three levels of Arms (that is, being armigerous) in the SCA.
                              These are the Award of Arms (AoA), the Grant of Arms (GoA), and the Patent
                              of Arms (PoA), in order from lowest to highest. For the first two, most
                              kingdoms have not only that level of award and title, but also one or more
                              other awards that convey that level of status. For example, here in the
                              Middle Kingdom we have an award called the Award of the Purple Fret (for
                              general service) that conveys an AoA if the person didn't already have
                              one, and an award called the Order of the Evergreen (for arts and sciences)
                              that conveys a GoA if the person didn't already have one. (There are others;
                              these are just two examples, and they are specific to the Middle Kingdom.)

                              The third and highest category, the Patent of Arms, is commonly referred to
                              as a Peerage. The SCA has four kinds of peerage orders:

                              * Royal Peers are those who have served as King or Queen and are honored
                              with titles like Duke or Duchess, Count or Countess (perhaps some variance
                              by kingdom). Royal Peers are just ahead of the other three peerages in
                              precedence. The other three that follow, however, are all exactly equal in
                              precedence. All of the peerages are *below* the currently-seated royalty
                              (King, Queen, Prince, Princess) in rank.

                              * Knights and Masters-At-Arms are those who are given a peerage for prowess
                              and chivalry in the martial endeavors (especially armoured combat, in most
                              kingdoms). The two are of equal rank, and are addressed as "Sir ..." or
                              "Dame ..." (women may choose to use "Sir" if they wish). The only difference
                              is that a Knight is one who swears fealty to the Crown, and a Master-At-
                              Arms is one who elects not to do so. (Swearing fealty is strictly voluntary
                              for everyone except landed nobility.) A Master-At-Arms is addressed as
                              "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}" rather than "Sir" or "Dame". Knights
                              and Masters-At-Armed are collectively referred to as the "Chivalry" or
                              the "Orders of Chivalry".

                              * Companions of the Order of the Laurel (called "Laurels" for short) are
                              those who are given a peerage for proficiency and willingness to teach
                              in the diverse arts and sciences -- that is, practical skills and crafts,
                              including research, performing arts, fine arts, and related areas. In
                              short, these are people who make things authentically and teach others
                              to do so. Laurels are addressed as "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}",
                              and fealty is optional and does not change the title. One typically is
                              referred to as being a Laurel "in" a particular creative field or trade,
                              but the actual title encompasses all areas. In other words, once you are
                              a Laurel in (say) woodworking, you don't get another Laurel even if you
                              become extremely skilled at other fields of endeavor (say, costuming).

                              * Companions of the Order of the Pelican (called "Pelicans" for short) are
                              those who receive a peerage for service, which can be in any area. Much
                              of the time, Pelicans go to people who do a lot of adminstrative work
                              such as holding offices, organizing fundraisers and service projects,
                              and so on. Thus, the Pelican functions as a kind of "catch-all" for people
                              who contribute to the organization but don't fit one of the other two
                              categories. Pelicans are addressed as "Master {name}" or "Mistress {name}"
                              just like Laurels, with fealty optional and not changing the title.

                              There is some overlap. For example, a person who makes beautiful illuminated
                              scrolls and teaches others may receive a Laurel in scribal arts. But if
                              that same person donates a multidude of scrolls to the kingdom, year after
                              year, they may also be recognized as a Pelican for sheer quantity of service.
                              Likewise, I know a gentleman who has received a Pelican for his extensive
                              service as a Marshal (referee and trainer) in armoured combat, even though
                              he is not (yet) a Knight. He was recognized for his quantity and quality
                              of service, and it just happens that service is in the martial area.

                              A person can have more than one peerage -- there are a few who have all four!
                              But you can only get each category of peerage once. In the most technical
                              terms, the titles "pile up" so that a quadruple-peer might be known as
                              "Her Grace, Dame Mistress Mistress Whooziz of Whatchacallit". This may be
                              permissible, but it's generally regarded as being a bit gauche to pile-on
                              the titles that way. Most people use either (1) their highest title or
                              (2) their favorite title, of the ones to which they're entitled. I know some
                              peers who prefer to be called "Baron(ess) {name}" even though that is a lower
                              rank than a peer -- just because they like the historical sound of it. :-)

                              The specific officer to whom you refer who keeps records is generally either
                              the Chronicler or the Historian (for non-financial records), or the
                              Exchequer (for financial records), or the Quartermaster (for keeping track
                              of group property such as cook gear for feasts). My lady wife, Milica, has
                              served as a Chronicler for a very long time, so I'll defer to her for
                              a more detailed explanation of that office. :-)

                              Incidentally, the offices one holds are generally temporary, and are thought
                              of (in some sense) as being "outside the game" in that they don't convey
                              rank or title. For instance, at the moment I am a deputy to an officer
                              at the corporate level -- that's pretty high up -- but I don't wear a crown
                              or have people bowing to me or sit at high table at feasts, because what
                              I do is a modern-world administrative job. In fact, the people I work with
                              in that capacity call each other by modern-world names, not even using our
                              SCA names or titles, because it's just a job and not part of the game.

                              The in-game titles, however, such as the AoA, GoA, and peerages, are
                              usually permanent and *do* convey a status or rank within the game realm.
                              So my good lady wife, for instance, who has a Grant of Arms, is entitled
                              to be called "Your Ladyship Milica" or "The Honorable Lady Milica"
                              regardless of whether she currently holds an office or not. When she
                              served as Kingdom Chronicler a couple of years ago, that didn't come with
                              a lot of in-game presence because she, like myself now, was working in
                              the modern-world administrative part of the SCA. So the two worlds
                              coexist but are largely independent of one another.

                              The three other things I should point out, having introduced the peerages
                              above, are:

                              1. The SCA's concept of peerage isn't very accurate compared to actual
                              historical precedent. In the SCA, the title of "Lord..." or "Lady ..."
                              is conferred by an Award of Arms, and is considered the entry-level
                              title. In England, however, "Lord" or "Lady" is a rather high title,
                              actually above a Knight.

                              2. Contrary to many new members' instincts, SCA peerages don't convey any
                              authority or power the way a Royal title does. You don't have to bow
                              to a Laurel or Pelican or Knight, and they don't have the right to
                              order anyone around. You may, unfortunately, run into a towering ego
                              now and then who think they can (this is the exception, not the rule,
                              but there are always a few bad apples in any bushel). Ignore them.
                              A peerage title is a mark of respect, and a token of obligation to
                              further service, not a rank of command.

                              3. Peers are (in most kingdoms) allowed to use an alternative title that
                              fits their persona's native language, as long as its historical
                              meaning is roughly equivalent to the official title of their peerage.
                              For instance, a Knight with Middle Eastern persona may choose to call
                              himself an Emir rather than a Knight. In my case, I chose the title
                              of Maistor (which roughly translates as Professor), because translating
                              Master into Greek becomes Magister, and in my time period that was a
                              civil judge or other high government official -- a title I deemed far
                              too presumptuous.

                              The Award of Arms turns one from "M'Lord {name}" or "M'Lady {name}" into
                              "Lord {name}" or "Lady {name}". A Grant of Arms conveys the title of
                              "His/Her Lordship/Ladyship {name}" or "The Honorable Lord/Lady {name}",
                              and is commonly abbreviated as "THL {name}".

                              Kings and Queens are "Your Majesty" or "Their Majesties" or "Their Royal
                              Majesties" (this last for formal occasions). Princesses and Princes are
                              "Their Highnesses" or "Their Royal Highnesses". You'll sometimes see
                              these titles abbreviated as HRM for His/Her Royal Majesty, TRM for Their
                              Royal Majesties, HRH or TRH for His/Her Royal Highness or Their Royal
                              Highnesses.

                              Dukes and Duchesses (those who have been King or Queen at least twice)
                              are Your Grace, and Counts and Countesses (those who have been King or
                              Queen once) are Your Excellency.

                              Barons and Baronesses are Your Excellency also. There are two kinds of
                              these: landed and court. Landed Barons and Baronesses are those who rule
                              as vassals to the King and Queen over a defined territory. Court Barons
                              and Baronesses are an honorific title granted at the whim of the King and
                              Queen.

                              There are a few other specialized royalty and nobility titles, but these
                              are the basics.

                              Now, before you decide this is all too complicated, let me boil it down
                              to some very, VERY simple guidelines:

                              1. If you see someone with a crown, you are basically safe in addressing
                              them as Your Excellency until you know their correct title. If they
                              are a Grace, Highness, etc., they may gently point this out. But
                              Your Excellency is a title of high respect, and as a new person you
                              will not give offense by using it for anyone with a "shiny brass hat".
                              (In fact, the crowns vary so much between kingdoms that even those
                              of us who've been around for years still goof now and then...it's okay.)

                              2. Give a short bow or curtsey to anyone you meet or pass who's wearing a
                              crown, unless the crown is large enough that they are obviously high
                              Royalty, in which case show a deeper deference (longer and/or deeper
                              bow). Take your cue from those around you, and you'll be fine. If the
                              person isn't wearing a crown, then you don't have to bow to them, because
                              all the "bowing" titles convey a brass hat in most kingdoms. However,
                              you can offer a short bow or curtsey to anyone you like, as a gesture
                              of person-to-person respectful greeting (like a courtly salute).

                              3. Treat everyone with respect and courtesy regardless of their title, and
                              you will not offend anyone. The courtesy titles of "My Lord" or "My
                              Lady" are correct for *anyone* in the SCA -- up to and including Royalty --
                              if you do not know their formal title. It is their responsiblity to either
                              courteously provide you the missing information, or to decide that
                              they don't care whether you use their title or not. If you call someone
                              "My Lord" or "My Lady", and they don't tell you differently, then you
                              may assume they are happy with it. It's really about *respect* and not
                              about *title deference*, and respect applies at all levels both above
                              and below yours. :-)

                              I hope this is helpful.

                              Justin

                              --
                              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                              Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                              keys fesswise reversed sable.

                              Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                              justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey


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                            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                              ... Glad to be of help. If you treat another person with respect and courtesy, and address them by a respectful title -- even if it is not the formally correct
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 23, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Thursday 23 February 2006 13:21, Janelle W. wrote:
                                > Thank you so much for this very lengthy lesson :)  It has proved very helpful
                                > to me as I was quite worried about knowing when to bow and what to call people
                                > at events.  It is nice to have it put into terms that I can comprehend and
                                > remember.  Thank  you again!

                                Glad to be of help.

                                If you treat another person with respect and courtesy, and address them
                                by a respectful title -- even if it is not the formally correct one, because
                                you didn't know that information -- then they should respond in kind. Remember
                                that "My Lord" and "My Lady" as courtesy titles are correct for *anyone* when
                                their official title is unknown. You can be reasonably close as a guess, if
                                you use "My Lord/Lady" for people without crowns and "Your Excellency" for
                                people with crowns. Even if you've got it wrong, they will do one of
                                the following things:

                                1. Fail to notice the error, or choose to ignore it because they are
                                secure enough with themselves to not care all that much about their
                                title. Congratulations, you are doing fine.

                                2. Notice the error, and gently point out their correct title to you by
                                way of a "teaching moment", assuming that you are new or perhaps from
                                a different kingdom where titles and/or accoutrements of rank are
                                not the same. Congratulations, you have just found an excuse to
                                converse with a nice person who may end up being a new-found friend
                                or at least helping you learn some interesting new things about the SCA.

                                3. React like a jerk, haughtily pointing out your error. Congratulations,
                                you have just added one more name to the list of people whom you exceed
                                in virtue! See below. :-)

                                In case #1 and case #2, which are by far the most common, it is a situation
                                of "no harm, no foul", and the end result is happy for both of you.

                                In the rare case #3 (and I've seen this *maybe* once or twice in 15 years
                                in the SCA), there *is* a foul -- and it is *theirs* and not yours. This is
                                someone who needs to Get A Life [TM] and realize that the SCA is just a
                                game and their string of impressive-sounding titles won't even get them
                                a free cup of coffee at Starbucks. :-) Don't take it personally if (and
                                again, this is extremely unlikely) this happens to you. Instead, realize
                                that someone like that is either a mostly-decent person having a very bad
                                day and taking it out (unfairly, but also unintentionally) on you, or they
                                have a congenital case of egomania and they treat everybody this way. Ignore
                                them, for the only one they dishonor by this conduct is themselves. Leave
                                them to stew in their juices, and come and play with the other 99% of
                                the SCA. :-)

                                When all else fails, remember that even the "mightiest" SCAdians have to
                                work regular jobs just like the rest of us. As a very wise person once
                                quipped,

                                "Fill it up with unleaded please, Your Grace."

                                {BIG GRIN}

                                Justin

                                --
                                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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