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  • Tara
    Juilote le Brenton, 13th Century French Woman. I found both both of these names in a French census from the late 1200 s. Will it work? Any advice and input
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 26, 2005
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      Juilote le Brenton, 13th Century French Woman.

      I found both both of these names in a French census from the late
      1200's.

      Will it work? Any advice and input would be greatly appreciated!

      Thanks!
    • Kristine Elliott
      Is your source http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html ? I see Juliote there but not Juilote. And is the byname le Breton or le Brenton ? I find
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 27, 2005
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        Is your source http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html ? I see
        Juliote there but not Juilote. And is the byname "le Breton" or "le
        Brenton"? I find the first, but not the second.

        Juliote le Breton would be a very period medieval French name for the 13th
        century. If you submit it to be registered, you will want to cite
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html for both parts.

        What amazed me was that I would have expected them to feminize the byname to
        "la Breton". However, I do note a Denise le Breton on the census. Denise is
        definitely the feminine form of Denis, so on the evidence suggests that "le
        Breton" was being used for both sexes. (All the other people with the byname
        "le Breton" seem to be male.) O! I found an Orenge ;a Brete and a Parise la
        Brete -- these may be a feminine form of "le Breton", but I will have to dig
        around some more (which I won't have time for tonight).

        Why am I fussing about this? Most of the bynames in this source seem to be
        functional -- they appear to be applied in particular to the person whose
        name they are attached to. (Whoops, I need to back up further. Originally,
        at least in Christian Europe, a person's NAME -- that which meant "= me" was
        their given name -- Ogier, Parise, Juliote, Ysabel. Anything added to that
        name was a byname -- used as a way to distinguish two people with the same
        name from one another. These bynames were specific to that person and
        described where they came from, some physical or mental characteristic, who
        their father (or mother) was their occupation or some other specific
        attribute. These bynames were not set in stone. If a different clerk kept
        the accounts for the lord different years, they might chose different
        bynames from one another to distinguish the two Jehans in the village.
        (Clerk A might call Jehan1 Jehan le Breton, but clerk B might refer to
        Jehan1 as Jehan le Fevre.) Gradually, at different times in different
        places, people started to inherit bynames from their parents. So, Jehan le
        Fevre's son might be called Alain le Fevre even though Alain was a baker
        rather than a Smith. Eventually, all bynames became inherited and were
        referred to as "inherited surnames" or simply as "surnames".

        So most of the records from the 1292 census of Paris appear to be functional
        bynames, but Denise le Breton looks like an inherited surname because you
        generally expect in French for the given name and functional byname to agree
        in gender, which Denise le Breton does not. It could just be a mistake, of
        course, which is why I need to do some digging and figure out if "la Brete"
        is the feminine version of "le Breton". That might be more appropriate for
        you to use, but I am not sure.

        Sorry if this is a kind of messy message; the library is closing and I need
        to get off their computer before they throw me off.

        More later.

        Yours in service,

        Scolastica



        On 12/26/05, Tara <tarahachtel@...> wrote:
        >
        > Juilote le Brenton, 13th Century French Woman.
        >
        > I found both both of these names in a French census from the late
        > 1200's.
        >
        > Will it work? Any advice and input would be greatly appreciated!
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS
        > Medieval and renaissance costume<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw> Society
        > for creative anachronism<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA> Medieval
        > time dinner and tournament<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
        > ------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > - Visit your group "scanewcomers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
        > on the web.
        >
        > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------
        >



        --
        http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

        "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
        than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
        Rep. Christopher Shays.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tara
        Greetings Scolastica, Wow, you are amazing! I had a very hard time understanding the information on the net, but you summed it all for me. Thank you! I
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 28, 2005
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          Greetings Scolastica,

          Wow, you are amazing! I had a very hard time understanding the
          information on the net, but you summed it all for me. Thank you! I
          appreciate all the information!

          I will await you're verdict on the issue of the last part of the
          name. I did get the information from the census you pasted in the
          reply.

          Thanks a bunch, I truly appreciate your investigation into this for
          me!

          Sincerely,

          Juliote *maybe* *Something Or Other* :)
          (Tara)

          PS I did spell the name wrong when I posted the message, one of
          these days I'll actually write one of the messages when I've had a
          full nights sleep :D)

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
          <souriete@g...> wrote:
          >
          > Is your source
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html ? I see
          > Juliote there but not Juilote. And is the byname "le Breton" or "le
          > Brenton"? I find the first, but not the second.
          >
          > Juliote le Breton would be a very period medieval French name for
          the 13th
          > century. If you submit it to be registered, you will want to cite
          > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html for both parts.
          >
          > What amazed me was that I would have expected them to feminize the
          byname to
          > "la Breton". However, I do note a Denise le Breton on the census.
          Denise is
          > definitely the feminine form of Denis, so on the evidence suggests
          that "le
          > Breton" was being used for both sexes. (All the other people with
          the byname
          > "le Breton" seem to be male.) O! I found an Orenge ;a Brete and a
          Parise la
          > Brete -- these may be a feminine form of "le Breton", but I will
          have to dig
          > around some more (which I won't have time for tonight).
          >
          > Why am I fussing about this? Most of the bynames in this source
          seem to be
          > functional -- they appear to be applied in particular to the
          person whose
          > name they are attached to. (Whoops, I need to back up further.
          Originally,
          > at least in Christian Europe, a person's NAME -- that which
          meant "= me" was
          > their given name -- Ogier, Parise, Juliote, Ysabel. Anything added
          to that
          > name was a byname -- used as a way to distinguish two people with
          the same
          > name from one another. These bynames were specific to that person
          and
          > described where they came from, some physical or mental
          characteristic, who
          > their father (or mother) was their occupation or some other
          specific
          > attribute. These bynames were not set in stone. If a different
          clerk kept
          > the accounts for the lord different years, they might chose
          different
          > bynames from one another to distinguish the two Jehans in the
          village.
          > (Clerk A might call Jehan1 Jehan le Breton, but clerk B might
          refer to
          > Jehan1 as Jehan le Fevre.) Gradually, at different times in
          different
          > places, people started to inherit bynames from their parents. So,
          Jehan le
          > Fevre's son might be called Alain le Fevre even though Alain was a
          baker
          > rather than a Smith. Eventually, all bynames became inherited and
          were
          > referred to as "inherited surnames" or simply as "surnames".
          >
          > So most of the records from the 1292 census of Paris appear to be
          functional
          > bynames, but Denise le Breton looks like an inherited surname
          because you
          > generally expect in French for the given name and functional
          byname to agree
          > in gender, which Denise le Breton does not. It could just be a
          mistake, of
          > course, which is why I need to do some digging and figure out
          if "la Brete"
          > is the feminine version of "le Breton". That might be more
          appropriate for
          > you to use, but I am not sure.
          >
          > Sorry if this is a kind of messy message; the library is closing
          and I need
          > to get off their computer before they throw me off.
          >
          > More later.
          >
          > Yours in service,
          >
          > Scolastica
          >
          >
          >
          > On 12/26/05, Tara <tarahachtel@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Juilote le Brenton, 13th Century French Woman.
          > >
          > > I found both both of these names in a French census from the late
          > > 1200's.
          > >
          > > Will it work? Any advice and input would be greatly appreciated!
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > SPONSORED LINKS
          > > Medieval and renaissance costume<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+c
          ostume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+an
          d+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw> Society
          > > for creative anachronism<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+c
          ostume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+an
          d+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA> Medieval
          > > time dinner and tournament<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
          t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissanc
          e+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner
          +and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
          > > ------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > >
          > > - Visit your
          group "scanewcomers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
          > > on the web.
          > >
          > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scanewcomers-
          unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
          >
          > "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values
          loyalty more
          > than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
          the truth."
          > Rep. Christopher Shays.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Kristine Elliott
          I ve had to consult the SCA Heralds list, because I am still worried that Denise le Breton might be a transcription error, and I want to get someone else s
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 28, 2005
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            I've had to consult the SCA Heralds list, because I am still worried
            that "Denise le Breton" might be a transcription error, and I want to
            get someone else's opinion on it. I did determine (from Reaney and
            Wilson's _A Dictionary of English Surnames_) that "le Bret" does mean
            the same thing as "le Breton" -- that the person is from Brittany. So
            I do think that "la Brete" is a feminine form of "le Bret" (which
            doesn't appear in that list from the census, but does appear in other
            sources). Also, in
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html I
            found "La Bretonne" dated to 1421. (Incidentally, Juliote is listed
            here too: http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423.html .)

            So, if you want a byname that means "the woman from Brittany," "la
            Brete" or "la Bretonne" are ideal -- dated to 1292 and 1421
            respectively. The form "le Breton" for a woman might be OK, but I am
            waiting to hear from some other names people before I tell you that it
            definitely is.

            I am sorry I changed my opinion in the process of writing that email
            last night. If I had had time, I would have gone back and edited the
            rest, but as it was I left as they were locking the doors. I am glad
            my explanations helped you, however hastily written they were. Feel
            free to ask for clarification if anything I said didn't make sense!

            Yours in service,

            Scolastica


            On 12/28/05, Tara <tarahachtel@...> wrote:
            > Greetings Scolastica,
            >
            > Wow, you are amazing! I had a very hard time understanding the
            > information on the net, but you summed it all for me. Thank you! I
            > appreciate all the information!
            >
            > I will await you're verdict on the issue of the last part of the
            > name. I did get the information from the census you pasted in the
            > reply.
            >
            > Thanks a bunch, I truly appreciate your investigation into this for
            > me!
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Juliote *maybe* *Something Or Other* :)
            > (Tara)
            >
            > PS I did spell the name wrong when I posted the message, one of
            > these days I'll actually write one of the messages when I've had a
            > full nights sleep :D)
            >
            > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
            >
            > <souriete@g...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Is your source
            > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html ? I see
            > > Juliote there but not Juilote. And is the byname "le Breton" or "le
            > > Brenton"? I find the first, but not the second.
            > >
            > > Juliote le Breton would be a very period medieval French name for
            > the 13th
            > > century. If you submit it to be registered, you will want to cite
            > > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html for
            > both parts.
            > >
            > > What amazed me was that I would have expected them to feminize the
            > byname to
            > > "la Breton". However, I do note a Denise le Breton on the census.
            > Denise is
            > > definitely the feminine form of Denis, so on the evidence suggests
            > that "le
            > > Breton" was being used for both sexes. (All the other people with
            > the byname
            > > "le Breton" seem to be male.) O! I found an Orenge ;a Brete and a
            > Parise la
            > > Brete -- these may be a feminine form of "le Breton", but I will
            > have to dig
            > > around some more (which I won't have time for tonight).
            > >
            > > Why am I fussing about this? Most of the bynames in this source
            > seem to be
            > > functional -- they appear to be applied in particular to the
            > person whose
            > > name they are attached to. (Whoops, I need to back up further.
            > Originally,
            > > at least in Christian Europe, a person's NAME -- that which
            > meant "= me" was
            > > their given name -- Ogier, Parise, Juliote, Ysabel. Anything added
            > to that
            > > name was a byname -- used as a way to distinguish two people with
            > the same
            > > name from one another. These bynames were specific to that person
            > and
            > > described where they came from, some physical or mental
            > characteristic, who
            > > their father (or mother) was their occupation or some other
            > specific
            > > attribute. These bynames were not set in stone. If a different
            > clerk kept
            > > the accounts for the lord different years, they might chose
            > different
            > > bynames from one another to distinguish the two Jehans in the
            > village.
            > > (Clerk A might call Jehan1 Jehan le Breton, but clerk B might
            > refer to
            > > Jehan1 as Jehan le Fevre.) Gradually, at different times in
            > different
            > > places, people started to inherit bynames from their parents. So,
            > Jehan le
            > > Fevre's son might be called Alain le Fevre even though Alain was a
            > baker
            > > rather than a Smith. Eventually, all bynames became inherited and
            > were
            > > referred to as "inherited surnames" or simply as "surnames".
            > >
            > > So most of the records from the 1292 census of Paris appear to be
            > functional
            > > bynames, but Denise le Breton looks like an inherited surname
            > because you
            > > generally expect in French for the given name and functional
            > byname to agree
            > > in gender, which Denise le Breton does not. It could just be a
            > mistake, of
            > > course, which is why I need to do some digging and figure out
            > if "la Brete"
            > > is the feminine version of "le Breton". That might be more
            > appropriate for
            > > you to use, but I am not sure.
            > >
            > > Sorry if this is a kind of messy message; the library is closing
            > and I need
            > > to get off their computer before they throw me off.
            > >
            > > More later.
            > >
            > > Yours in service,
            > >
            > > Scolastica
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On 12/26/05, Tara <tarahachtel@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Juilote le Brenton, 13th Century French Woman.
            > > >
            > > > I found both both of these names in a French census from the late
            > > > 1200's.
            > > >
            > > > Will it work? Any advice and input would be greatly appreciated!
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!


            --
            http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

            "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
            more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
            the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
          • Kristine Elliott
            ... I think Juliote la Brete or Juliote la Bretonne would be OK if you are from the 13th, 14th or even early 15th century, judging by the citations from
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 29, 2005
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              On 12/28/05, Kristine Elliott <souriete@...> wrote:
              > I've had to consult the SCA Heralds list, because I am still worried
              > that "Denise le Breton" might be a transcription error, and I want to
              > get someone else's opinion on it. I did determine (from Reaney and
              > Wilson's _A Dictionary of English Surnames_) that "le Bret" does mean
              > the same thing as "le Breton" -- that the person is from Brittany. So
              > I do think that "la Brete" is a feminine form of "le Bret" (which
              > doesn't appear in that list from the census, but does appear in other
              > sources). Also, in
              > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html I
              > found "La Bretonne" dated to 1421. (Incidentally, Juliote is listed
              > here too: http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423.html .)
              >
              > So, if you want a byname that means "the woman from Brittany," "la
              > Brete" or "la Bretonne" are ideal -- dated to 1292 and 1421
              > respectively. The form "le Breton" for a woman might be OK, but I am
              > waiting to hear from some other names people before I tell you that it
              > definitely is.
              >
              > I am sorry I changed my opinion in the process of writing that email
              > last night. If I had had time, I would have gone back and edited the
              > rest, but as it was I left as they were locking the doors. I am glad
              > my explanations helped you, however hastily written they were. Feel
              > free to ask for clarification if anything I said didn't make sense!
              >

              I think Juliote la Brete or Juliote la Bretonne would be OK if you are
              from the 13th, 14th or even early 15th century, judging by the
              citations from http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423.html
              . Juliote le Breton or Juliote Breton is more likely if your persona
              is late period French, because an inherited surname seems to be more
              likely to be in masculine form from what I can tell from my readings.
              I think that inherited surnames tended toward the masculine form,
              generally. This, I must say, is my best guess. I know much more about
              English medieval naming practices than I do about medieval French
              naming practices and no one on SCAHeralds offered any more specific
              information on when the changeover from functional bynames to
              inherited surnames occurred. This may be because the situation
              parallelled England, where the change to inherited surnames occurred
              gradually between the 11th and the 16th century, being rare but
              occasional among the highest ranks in the 11th century and by the 16th
              century, were practically universal except for a few peasants in a few
              "backward" (or conservative) areas.

              The other thing about a functional byname, I should mention, is that
              when functional bynames were used, husbands and wives used their own
              bynames -- the wife did not take the husband's byname the way in
              modern USA, wives traditionally change their last name to their
              husbands.


              Scolastica
              --
              http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

              "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
              more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
              the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
            • Tara
              So much information, it s wonderful! Thank you! Thank you for the compliment, Margaret. I fell in love with `Juliote when I saw it. I m glad that it will
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 30, 2005
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                So much information, it's wonderful! Thank you!

                Thank you for the compliment, Margaret. I fell in love
                with `Juliote' when I saw it. I'm glad that it will work for me. I
                shall stay on the safe side of things and go with Juliote la
                Bretonne. I think it has a nice ring to it.

                I'm hoping to get involved with one of the musical guilds, and play
                off my name as the whims of a musical and wander lusting father and
                mother. We know how those artsy people can be (speaking from
                personal experience of course). :)

                I haven't worked out all the details yet. I will be joining this
                group again under a new Yahoo ID I created around my new name
                Juliote... I'm just so excited to use the name; I had to create a
                new Yahoo ID. I'm so happy, I'm giddy! Since getting your
                approval, Scolastica, I finally feel some ownership to it. :)

                Thank you again Scolastica. You are Fabulous!!

                Forever Indebted To You,
                Juliote la Bretonne



                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                <souriete@g...> wrote:
                >
                > On 12/28/05, Kristine Elliott <souriete@g...> wrote:
                > > I've had to consult the SCA Heralds list, because I am still
                worried
                > > that "Denise le Breton" might be a transcription error, and I
                want to
                > > get someone else's opinion on it. I did determine (from Reaney
                and
                > > Wilson's _A Dictionary of English Surnames_) that "le Bret" does
                mean
                > > the same thing as "le Breton" -- that the person is from
                Brittany. So
                > > I do think that "la Brete" is a feminine form of "le Bret" (which
                > > doesn't appear in that list from the census, but does appear in
                other
                > > sources). Also, in
                > >
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html I
                > > found "La Bretonne" dated to 1421. (Incidentally, Juliote is
                listed
                > > here too:
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423.html .)
                > >
                > > So, if you want a byname that means "the woman from
                Brittany," "la
                > > Brete" or "la Bretonne" are ideal -- dated to 1292 and 1421
                > > respectively. The form "le Breton" for a woman might be OK, but
                I am
                > > waiting to hear from some other names people before I tell you
                that it
                > > definitely is.
                > >
                > > I am sorry I changed my opinion in the process of writing that
                email
                > > last night. If I had had time, I would have gone back and edited
                the
                > > rest, but as it was I left as they were locking the doors. I am
                glad
                > > my explanations helped you, however hastily written they were.
                Feel
                > > free to ask for clarification if anything I said didn't make
                sense!
                > >
                >
                > I think Juliote la Brete or Juliote la Bretonne would be OK if you
                are
                > from the 13th, 14th or even early 15th century, judging by the
                > citations from
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423.html
                > . Juliote le Breton or Juliote Breton is more likely if your
                persona
                > is late period French, because an inherited surname seems to be
                more
                > likely to be in masculine form from what I can tell from my
                readings.
                > I think that inherited surnames tended toward the masculine form,
                > generally. This, I must say, is my best guess. I know much more
                about
                > English medieval naming practices than I do about medieval French
                > naming practices and no one on SCAHeralds offered any more specific
                > information on when the changeover from functional bynames to
                > inherited surnames occurred. This may be because the situation
                > parallelled England, where the change to inherited surnames
                occurred
                > gradually between the 11th and the 16th century, being rare but
                > occasional among the highest ranks in the 11th century and by the
                16th
                > century, were practically universal except for a few peasants in a
                few
                > "backward" (or conservative) areas.
                >
                > The other thing about a functional byname, I should mention, is
                that
                > when functional bynames were used, husbands and wives used their
                own
                > bynames -- the wife did not take the husband's byname the way in
                > modern USA, wives traditionally change their last name to their
                > husbands.
                >
                >
                > Scolastica
                > --
                > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
                >
                > "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values
                loyalty
                > more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more
                than
                > the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
                >
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