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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Name Question

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  • Kristine Elliott
    ... Here s the documentation in the sources I could find at home: Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and Nicholas to 1273.
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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      On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
      > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
      > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
      >
      > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
      > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
      > titles ).
      > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
      > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
      > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
      >
      > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
      > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
      >
      > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
      > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
      > thier sons as well.
      >
      >
      > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
      > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
      >
      > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
      > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
      >
      > YIS,
      >
      > Nicholas
      >
      >
      Here's the documentation in the sources I could find at home:

      Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and
      Nicholas to 1273.
      Reaney & Wilson p 322 date Nicolaus to 1086, Nicholaus to 1147-66, and
      Nicolus to the reign of Henry II.

      Dauzat and Rostaing p. 117 under Brion lists a number of places with that
      name. Brion in Isère. has the spelling Brion dated to the thirteenth
      century. Brion in D-Sèvres. has the spelling Brion dated to the 1120.

      Ekwall p. 139 under Dart is Dartmoor with the citation "Dertemora" dated to
      1182.
      Watts p. 179 under Dartmoor dates Dertemora, -e to 1181 -1359.

      Withycombe, E.G. Oxford Dictionary of Christian Names. Oxford University
      Press: New York, 1977.
      Reaney, P.H. and R. M. Wilson. A Dictionary of English Surnames. Routledge &
      Kegan Paul: New York, 1991.
      Dauzat, Albert and Rostaign. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux de
      la France. Paris, 1963.
      Watts, Victor. _The Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names_. Cambridge
      University Press, 2004.

      Documentation for two locative bynames:

      "Patterns of Middle English Names with Multiple Bynames" (Cateline la
      souriete, KWHS 2004, pg. 93) finds double locatives to be the second most
      common type among names with multiple bynames. The table of examples has
      five 14th C names of this type.

      Of the above sources, everything but Watts is on the "no photocopy" list
      (found at http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIX_H ). If you
      want copies of Watts, I can email you scans next week, just let me know.

      The examples of double locatives I cited in my papers are 14th century, but
      if you want, I can go back to my data and see if I can dig up earlier
      instances; there probably are some, but I haven't looked at the database in
      nearly two years. If you want to cite the earlier instances in your
      documentation, I will need to make scans of my sources for you.

      Nicholas, thanks for expanding my knowledge of French place names. I had no
      idea that there were multiple places called Brion in France. Let me know if
      you want me to do any additional digging or get you any scans of Watts.

      Yours in service,

      Scolastica
      --
      http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

      "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
      than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
      Rep. Christopher Shays.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
      OK, for a stick jock I m pretty on the button. But please let me know if I m understanding. From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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        OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
        know if I'm understanding.

        From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:

        Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?

        This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?

        I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.

        THANK YOU!

        YIS,

        Nicolaus
      • Kristine Elliott
        ... Glad to be of service. Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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          On 12/8/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
          > know if I'm understanding.
          >
          > From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
          >
          > Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?
          >
          > This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?
          >
          > I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.
          >
          > THANK YOU!
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Nicolaus

          Glad to be of service.

          Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR
          Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are all
          fine and should be registerable. I wasn't sure if you would LIKE any
          of the 11th century spellings, which is why I included documentation
          for a variety of spellings I could find for Nicholas, including the
          one you have been using.

          "Brion" or "De Brion" is still a locative -- in your name it is an
          inherited locative, apparently on its way to becoming an inherited
          surname. This was happening at different times and with different
          families in England from the 11th century to the 16th, usually started
          at the highest levels and filtering down the later socially. By the
          16th century, we see a few peasants in isolated areas without
          inherited surnames, but that was EXTREMELY rare by that time.

          If you have any more questions, please let me know. I was glad to be
          of service. I LOVE doing name research.

          Scolastica

          --
          http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

          "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
          more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
          the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
        • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
          ... Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on my Name Submission Form. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! You are the BEST. If you are
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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            :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.

            Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
            my Name Submission Form.

            Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

            You are the BEST.

            If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
            We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
            of fruit and chocolate fondue.
            We are a Family Encampment in N19.


            Your Humbul Servant,

            Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
          • Kristine Elliott
            Replied off list. Scolastica ... -- http://www.geocities.com/souriete/ I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more than
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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              Replied off list.

              Scolastica

              On 12/15/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.
              >
              > Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
              > my Name Submission Form.
              >
              > Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
              >
              > You are the BEST.
              >
              > If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
              > We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
              > of fruit and chocolate fondue.
              > We are a Family Encampment in N19.
              >
              >
              > Your Humbul Servant,
              >
              > Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              --
              http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

              "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
              than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
              Rep. Christopher Shays.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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