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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Name Question

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  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
    ... Don t apologize...that was a very interesting read, and quite on-topic to the original question. :-) Justin List Moderator -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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      On Wednesday 07 December 2005 09:01, Kristine Elliott wrote:
      > Sorry to have been so longwinded. This is a complicated subject.

      Don't apologize...that was a very interesting read, and quite on-topic
      to the original question. :-)

      Justin
      List Moderator

      --
      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
      keys fesswise reversed sable.

      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
    • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
      I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted lands and constructed
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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        I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
        Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
        lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.

        The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
        noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
        titles ).
        My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
        father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
        live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.

        So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
        Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.

        A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
        his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
        thier sons as well.


        Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
        ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.

        This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
        own Baronial Yahoo Group.

        YIS,

        Nicholas
      • Kristine Elliott
        OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html , it appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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          OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html , it
          appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of
          Dartmoor definitely looks like it is a valid pattern of a given name with a
          double locative. I need to see what the early 12th century form of Dartmoor
          is and I would like to find, if possible a dated citation for Baldwin de
          Brion. The problem with everything I have seen on the 'net is that the names
          look regularized; I want to see what the name in the original document looks
          like.

          The problem with regularizing names is that in the process the name can get
          pretty far away from a period form. My usual example is Joan of Arc. That is
          the usual way of doing her name in English. In modern French texts, her name
          is usually written as Jeanne d'Arc. In the texts I have look at that are
          contemporary with her, her name is often written as Jehanne la Pucelle. A
          document "signed" by her is signed "Jehanne" {I believe she was illiterate
          but had a secretary}. I would expect to see Baldwinus de Brion at the very
          least in a Latin document like the Domesday book, and would like to verify
          that it WAS written "de Brion" in the 11th century if I can.

          I'll let you know tomorrow.

          Yours in service,

          Scolastica
          On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
          > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
          > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
          >
          > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
          > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
          > titles ).
          > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
          > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
          > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
          >
          > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
          > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
          >
          > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
          > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
          > thier sons as well.
          >
          >
          > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
          > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
          >
          > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
          > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Nicholas
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS
          > Medieval and renaissance costume<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw> Society
          > for creative anachronism<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA> Medieval
          > time dinner and tournament<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
          > ------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          > - Visit your group "scanewcomers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
          > on the web.
          >
          > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          >
          > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------
          >



          --
          http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

          "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
          than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
          Rep. Christopher Shays.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sydney Walker Freedman
          A great source for period spellings of English surnames is, A Dictionary of English Surnames. All I can remember at the moment is the title. Sorry! Pax
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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            A great source for period spellings of English surnames is, "A Dictionary
            of English Surnames. All I can remember at the moment is the title.
            Sorry!

            Pax Christi,
            Cecilia de Cambrige

            > OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html
            > , it
            > appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of
            > Dartmoor definitely looks like it is a valid pattern of a given name with
            > a
            > double locative. I need to see what the early 12th century form of
            > Dartmoor
            > is and I would like to find, if possible a dated citation for Baldwin de
            > Brion. The problem with everything I have seen on the 'net is that the
            > names
            > look regularized; I want to see what the name in the original document
            > looks
            > like.
            >
            > The problem with regularizing names is that in the process the name can
            > get
            > pretty far away from a period form. My usual example is Joan of Arc. That
            > is
            > the usual way of doing her name in English. In modern French texts, her
            > name
            > is usually written as Jeanne d'Arc. In the texts I have look at that are
            > contemporary with her, her name is often written as Jehanne la Pucelle. A
            > document "signed" by her is signed "Jehanne" {I
            > believe she was illiterate
            > but had a secretary}. I would expect to see Baldwinus de Brion at the
            > very
            > least in a Latin document like the Domesday book, and would like to
            > verify
            > that it WAS written "de Brion" in the 11th century if I can.
            >
            > I'll let you know tomorrow.
            >
            > Yours in service,
            >
            > Scolastica
            > On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
            > > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
            > > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
            > >
            > > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
            > > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
            > > titles ).
            > > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
            > > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
            > > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
            > >
            > > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
            > > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
            > >
            > > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
            > > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
            > > thier sons as well.
            > >
            > >
            > > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
            > > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
            > >
            > > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
            > > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
            > >
            > > YIS,
            > >
            > > Nicholas
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > SPONSORED LINKS
            > > Medieval and renaissance
            > costumehttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw>
            > Society
            > > for creative
            > anachronismhttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA>
            > Medieval
            > > time dinner and
            > tournamenthttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
            > > ------------------------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > >
            > > - Visit your group
            > "scanewcomershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
            > > on the web.
            > >
            > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
            >
            > "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values
            > loyalty more
            > than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the
            > truth."
            > Rep. Christopher Shays.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            > Medieval and renaissance costume
            > Society for creative anachronism
            > Medieval time dinner and tournament
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >


            Pax Christi,
            Sydney
          • Kristine Elliott
            ... Here s the documentation in the sources I could find at home: Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and Nicholas to 1273.
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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              On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
              > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
              > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
              >
              > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
              > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
              > titles ).
              > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
              > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
              > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
              >
              > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
              > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
              >
              > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
              > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
              > thier sons as well.
              >
              >
              > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
              > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
              >
              > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
              > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
              >
              > YIS,
              >
              > Nicholas
              >
              >
              Here's the documentation in the sources I could find at home:

              Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and
              Nicholas to 1273.
              Reaney & Wilson p 322 date Nicolaus to 1086, Nicholaus to 1147-66, and
              Nicolus to the reign of Henry II.

              Dauzat and Rostaing p. 117 under Brion lists a number of places with that
              name. Brion in Isère. has the spelling Brion dated to the thirteenth
              century. Brion in D-Sèvres. has the spelling Brion dated to the 1120.

              Ekwall p. 139 under Dart is Dartmoor with the citation "Dertemora" dated to
              1182.
              Watts p. 179 under Dartmoor dates Dertemora, -e to 1181 -1359.

              Withycombe, E.G. Oxford Dictionary of Christian Names. Oxford University
              Press: New York, 1977.
              Reaney, P.H. and R. M. Wilson. A Dictionary of English Surnames. Routledge &
              Kegan Paul: New York, 1991.
              Dauzat, Albert and Rostaign. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux de
              la France. Paris, 1963.
              Watts, Victor. _The Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names_. Cambridge
              University Press, 2004.

              Documentation for two locative bynames:

              "Patterns of Middle English Names with Multiple Bynames" (Cateline la
              souriete, KWHS 2004, pg. 93) finds double locatives to be the second most
              common type among names with multiple bynames. The table of examples has
              five 14th C names of this type.

              Of the above sources, everything but Watts is on the "no photocopy" list
              (found at http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIX_H ). If you
              want copies of Watts, I can email you scans next week, just let me know.

              The examples of double locatives I cited in my papers are 14th century, but
              if you want, I can go back to my data and see if I can dig up earlier
              instances; there probably are some, but I haven't looked at the database in
              nearly two years. If you want to cite the earlier instances in your
              documentation, I will need to make scans of my sources for you.

              Nicholas, thanks for expanding my knowledge of French place names. I had no
              idea that there were multiple places called Brion in France. Let me know if
              you want me to do any additional digging or get you any scans of Watts.

              Yours in service,

              Scolastica
              --
              http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

              "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
              than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
              Rep. Christopher Shays.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
              OK, for a stick jock I m pretty on the button. But please let me know if I m understanding. From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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                OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
                know if I'm understanding.

                From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:

                Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?

                This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?

                I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.

                THANK YOU!

                YIS,

                Nicolaus
              • Kristine Elliott
                ... Glad to be of service. Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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                  On 12/8/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
                  > know if I'm understanding.
                  >
                  > From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
                  >
                  > Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?
                  >
                  > This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?
                  >
                  > I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.
                  >
                  > THANK YOU!
                  >
                  > YIS,
                  >
                  > Nicolaus

                  Glad to be of service.

                  Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR
                  Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are all
                  fine and should be registerable. I wasn't sure if you would LIKE any
                  of the 11th century spellings, which is why I included documentation
                  for a variety of spellings I could find for Nicholas, including the
                  one you have been using.

                  "Brion" or "De Brion" is still a locative -- in your name it is an
                  inherited locative, apparently on its way to becoming an inherited
                  surname. This was happening at different times and with different
                  families in England from the 11th century to the 16th, usually started
                  at the highest levels and filtering down the later socially. By the
                  16th century, we see a few peasants in isolated areas without
                  inherited surnames, but that was EXTREMELY rare by that time.

                  If you have any more questions, please let me know. I was glad to be
                  of service. I LOVE doing name research.

                  Scolastica

                  --
                  http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                  "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
                  more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
                  the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
                • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
                  ... Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on my Name Submission Form. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! You are the BEST. If you are
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                    :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.

                    Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
                    my Name Submission Form.

                    Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

                    You are the BEST.

                    If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
                    We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
                    of fruit and chocolate fondue.
                    We are a Family Encampment in N19.


                    Your Humbul Servant,

                    Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
                  • Kristine Elliott
                    Replied off list. Scolastica ... -- http://www.geocities.com/souriete/ I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more than
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                      Replied off list.

                      Scolastica

                      On 12/15/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.
                      >
                      > Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
                      > my Name Submission Form.
                      >
                      > Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
                      >
                      > You are the BEST.
                      >
                      > If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
                      > We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
                      > of fruit and chocolate fondue.
                      > We are a Family Encampment in N19.
                      >
                      >
                      > Your Humbul Servant,
                      >
                      > Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS
                      > Medieval and renaissance costume<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw> Society
                      > for creative anachronism<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA> Medieval
                      > time dinner and tournament<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
                      > ------------------------------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      >
                      > - Visit your group "scanewcomers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
                      > on the web.
                      >
                      > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >
                      > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------
                      >



                      --
                      http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                      "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
                      than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
                      Rep. Christopher Shays.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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