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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Name Question

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  • Kristine Elliott
    ... You CAN combine English and French in your name if you are doing an essentially Middle English name. The reason is that English and French were both spoken
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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      On 12/6/05, Jeremy Slick <purplellamaboi@...> wrote:
      > The only thing I can see that might give you grief is having "de Brion"
      > and "of Dartmoor" both in the same name element (aka: as surnames). Mixing
      > languages in a surname doesn't fly with the SCA College of Arms; if you can
      > find the English version of "de Brion" or the (I'm assuming) French version
      > of "of Dartmoor"...then you would be OK.
      >
      > Additionally, I've never seen TWO types of surnames used in conjunction
      > with each...at least not within the context of what I have access to for
      > heraldic resources (and that's including St. Gabriel's, Master Modar, and
      > numerous heraldic archives).
      >
      > Until the next time,
      > Giudo di Niccolo
      >
      >
      > Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote: Does
      > anyone see anything Blatently wrong with the name Nicholas de Brion of
      > Dartmoor ??

      You CAN combine English and French in your name if you are doing an
      essentially Middle English name. The reason is that English and French
      were both spoken in England after the Norman Conquest. By Chaucer's
      time, of course, the tide was turning inexorably toward English, but
      between 1066 and the sometime in the 14th century they were the two
      dominant vernacular languages in England.

      I'd be interested in more information about the byname "de Brion". I
      am not doubting your word, but it is rather odd from an onomastic
      point of view. Brian is a given name with two sources in England:
      Irish and Breton. Reaney and Wilson do not list Brian or Brion as an
      English place name (or indeed a place name in any language). That
      isn't definitive, though; I need to remember to make a more thorough
      search in my sources at home. I do remember that there was a pattern
      in France where "de <given name>" was a patronymic pattern, which I
      think is period but would have to check. I'd like to identify the type
      of the byname and knowing your source might help me do so, and give
      you the most informative answer.

      The other thing I would like to do is check the period spelling of
      Dartmoor. My best sources for that is at home, alas.

      Two bynames in Middle English is rare but doable. In my article
      "Patterns in Middle English Names with Multiple Bynames" in the Known
      World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, Proceedings: 2004 I analyzed 800
      examples of multiple bynames for pattern. Of these 800 names, 15.6%
      had two locatives. In approximately 1/3 of these, the second locative
      phrase was "of London" which I speculate MAY be an indication of
      London citizenship (not synonymous with residence in London). Of the
      rest, many of them examples seem composed of locatives of two
      different types, one of which is a named place and the other a more
      local byname, like Adam atte Ponde de Alvesbourne, where "atte Ponde"
      indicates residence near a pond while Alvesbourne is a named place.
      Henry de Suleby of Fletestrete contains a reference to a place outside
      London (Suleby) as well as where his residence was IN London –
      Fletestrete. William de Hesil of Holborn looks to be identical in
      pattern, though I am not sure whether Holborn was a part of London in
      the 14th century or not … it certainly is in central London today.

      Here are the examples I included in the paper:

      Peter de Herlyngge of London, 1340, Ekwall, SPML p. 59
      Henry de Waperlond de Wentebrigge, 1342-3, Ekwall, SPML p. 294
      Adam atte Ponde de Alvesbourne, 1311, Ekwall, SPML p. 1
      William de Hesil of Holborn, 1346-7, Ekwall, SPML, p. 284
      Richard de Coventre de Berewyk, 1346, Ekwall, SPML p. 214
      Henry de Suleby of Fletestrete, 1324-5, Ekwall, SPML p. 274

      The source for these examples was Eilert Ekwall's Studies of the
      Population of Medieval London (Stockholm: Almqvist & Wiksell, 1956).
      In this book, Ekwall was attempting to study immigration into London
      by analyzing the locative bynames people in the records had.

      If anyone wants to see a copy of the article in pdf format, please let
      me know off list.

      Sorry to have been so longwinded. This is a complicated subject.

      Scolastica la souriete
      (formerly Cateline la souriete)

      --
      http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

      "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
      more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
      the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
    • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
      ... Don t apologize...that was a very interesting read, and quite on-topic to the original question. :-) Justin List Moderator -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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        On Wednesday 07 December 2005 09:01, Kristine Elliott wrote:
        > Sorry to have been so longwinded. This is a complicated subject.

        Don't apologize...that was a very interesting read, and quite on-topic
        to the original question. :-)

        Justin
        List Moderator

        --
        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
        Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
        keys fesswise reversed sable.

        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
      • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
        I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted lands and constructed
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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          I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
          Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
          lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.

          The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
          noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
          titles ).
          My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
          father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
          live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.

          So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
          Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.

          A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
          his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
          thier sons as well.


          Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
          ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.

          This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
          own Baronial Yahoo Group.

          YIS,

          Nicholas
        • Kristine Elliott
          OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html , it appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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            OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html , it
            appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of
            Dartmoor definitely looks like it is a valid pattern of a given name with a
            double locative. I need to see what the early 12th century form of Dartmoor
            is and I would like to find, if possible a dated citation for Baldwin de
            Brion. The problem with everything I have seen on the 'net is that the names
            look regularized; I want to see what the name in the original document looks
            like.

            The problem with regularizing names is that in the process the name can get
            pretty far away from a period form. My usual example is Joan of Arc. That is
            the usual way of doing her name in English. In modern French texts, her name
            is usually written as Jeanne d'Arc. In the texts I have look at that are
            contemporary with her, her name is often written as Jehanne la Pucelle. A
            document "signed" by her is signed "Jehanne" {I believe she was illiterate
            but had a secretary}. I would expect to see Baldwinus de Brion at the very
            least in a Latin document like the Domesday book, and would like to verify
            that it WAS written "de Brion" in the 11th century if I can.

            I'll let you know tomorrow.

            Yours in service,

            Scolastica
            On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
            > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
            > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
            >
            > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
            > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
            > titles ).
            > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
            > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
            > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
            >
            > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
            > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
            >
            > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
            > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
            > thier sons as well.
            >
            >
            > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
            > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
            >
            > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
            > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
            >
            > YIS,
            >
            > Nicholas
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            > Medieval and renaissance costume<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw> Society
            > for creative anachronism<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA> Medieval
            > time dinner and tournament<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
            > ------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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            >
            > - Visit your group "scanewcomers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
            > on the web.
            >
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            >
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            >
            >
            > ------------------------------
            >



            --
            http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

            "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
            than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
            Rep. Christopher Shays.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sydney Walker Freedman
            A great source for period spellings of English surnames is, A Dictionary of English Surnames. All I can remember at the moment is the title. Sorry! Pax
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 7, 2005
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              A great source for period spellings of English surnames is, "A Dictionary
              of English Surnames. All I can remember at the moment is the title.
              Sorry!

              Pax Christi,
              Cecilia de Cambrige

              > OK, taking a look at http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersm-o.html
              > , it
              > appears that Brion is a placename in France. So, Nicholas de Brion of
              > Dartmoor definitely looks like it is a valid pattern of a given name with
              > a
              > double locative. I need to see what the early 12th century form of
              > Dartmoor
              > is and I would like to find, if possible a dated citation for Baldwin de
              > Brion. The problem with everything I have seen on the 'net is that the
              > names
              > look regularized; I want to see what the name in the original document
              > looks
              > like.
              >
              > The problem with regularizing names is that in the process the name can
              > get
              > pretty far away from a period form. My usual example is Joan of Arc. That
              > is
              > the usual way of doing her name in English. In modern French texts, her
              > name
              > is usually written as Jeanne d'Arc. In the texts I have look at that are
              > contemporary with her, her name is often written as Jehanne la Pucelle. A
              > document "signed" by her is signed "Jehanne" {I
              > believe she was illiterate
              > but had a secretary}. I would expect to see Baldwinus de Brion at the
              > very
              > least in a Latin document like the Domesday book, and would like to
              > verify
              > that it WAS written "de Brion" in the 11th century if I can.
              >
              > I'll let you know tomorrow.
              >
              > Yours in service,
              >
              > Scolastica
              > On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
              > > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
              > > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
              > >
              > > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
              > > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
              > > titles ).
              > > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
              > > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
              > > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
              > >
              > > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
              > > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
              > >
              > > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
              > > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
              > > thier sons as well.
              > >
              > >
              > > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
              > > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
              > >
              > > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
              > > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
              > >
              > > YIS,
              > >
              > > Nicholas
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SPONSORED LINKS
              > > Medieval and renaissance
              > costumehttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=QfASwUOIaIvkiStublptpw>
              > Society
              > > for creative
              > anachronismhttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=ITwtXU13XcrRFbRsGqt4uA>
              > Medieval
              > > time dinner and
              > tournamenthttp://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&w1=Medieval+and+renaissance+costume&w2=Society+for+creative+anachronism&w3=Medieval+time+dinner+and+tournament&c=3&s=117&.sig=5HfkcsNg0NQAOuid4_aIvg>
              > > ------------------------------
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > >
              > > - Visit your group
              > "scanewcomershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers>"
              > > on the web.
              > >
              > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > > Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
              >
              > "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values
              > loyalty more
              > than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the
              > truth."
              > Rep. Christopher Shays.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > SPONSORED LINKS
              > Medieval and renaissance costume
              > Society for creative anachronism
              > Medieval time dinner and tournament
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >


              Pax Christi,
              Sydney
            • Kristine Elliott
              ... Here s the documentation in the sources I could find at home: Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and Nicholas to 1273.
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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                On 12/7/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I found in the Doomsday Book a Baron Baldwin de Brion, Sheriff of
                > Devon. One who was with William the Conquror at Hastings, and gifted
                > lands and constructed the Castle of Okehampton.
                >
                > The persona tale is that my Father was a 3rd or 4th son of this
                > noble ( of whom little else is noted, other than some fancy, gifted
                > titles ).
                > My father recieving very little or no inheritance or aid from his
                > father moved into the Moors near the river Dart to raise sheep and
                > live a humble Christian life. I was Born around Nov. 5 1080.
                >
                > So the French infulence in Norman England is GREAT...Since all the
                > Titled Landholders and Minor Nobles were William's Men by then.
                >
                > A Grandfather who is VERY dedicated to his Norman King, Would raise
                > his sons in loyalty and in thier French Traditons....and possibly
                > thier sons as well.
                >
                >
                > Anyway I am Very Greatful for the ttime and effort of those learned
                > ppls who are helping me. THANK YOU.
                >
                > This has been VERY interesting and actually more helpful than my
                > own Baronial Yahoo Group.
                >
                > YIS,
                >
                > Nicholas
                >
                >
                Here's the documentation in the sources I could find at home:

                Withycombe p. 227 under Nicholas dates Nicolaus to 1086 and 1186-1220 and
                Nicholas to 1273.
                Reaney & Wilson p 322 date Nicolaus to 1086, Nicholaus to 1147-66, and
                Nicolus to the reign of Henry II.

                Dauzat and Rostaing p. 117 under Brion lists a number of places with that
                name. Brion in Isère. has the spelling Brion dated to the thirteenth
                century. Brion in D-Sèvres. has the spelling Brion dated to the 1120.

                Ekwall p. 139 under Dart is Dartmoor with the citation "Dertemora" dated to
                1182.
                Watts p. 179 under Dartmoor dates Dertemora, -e to 1181 -1359.

                Withycombe, E.G. Oxford Dictionary of Christian Names. Oxford University
                Press: New York, 1977.
                Reaney, P.H. and R. M. Wilson. A Dictionary of English Surnames. Routledge &
                Kegan Paul: New York, 1991.
                Dauzat, Albert and Rostaign. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux de
                la France. Paris, 1963.
                Watts, Victor. _The Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names_. Cambridge
                University Press, 2004.

                Documentation for two locative bynames:

                "Patterns of Middle English Names with Multiple Bynames" (Cateline la
                souriete, KWHS 2004, pg. 93) finds double locatives to be the second most
                common type among names with multiple bynames. The table of examples has
                five 14th C names of this type.

                Of the above sources, everything but Watts is on the "no photocopy" list
                (found at http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIX_H ). If you
                want copies of Watts, I can email you scans next week, just let me know.

                The examples of double locatives I cited in my papers are 14th century, but
                if you want, I can go back to my data and see if I can dig up earlier
                instances; there probably are some, but I haven't looked at the database in
                nearly two years. If you want to cite the earlier instances in your
                documentation, I will need to make scans of my sources for you.

                Nicholas, thanks for expanding my knowledge of French place names. I had no
                idea that there were multiple places called Brion in France. Let me know if
                you want me to do any additional digging or get you any scans of Watts.

                Yours in service,

                Scolastica
                --
                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
                than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
                Rep. Christopher Shays.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
                OK, for a stick jock I m pretty on the button. But please let me know if I m understanding. From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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                  OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
                  know if I'm understanding.

                  From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:

                  Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?

                  This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?

                  I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.

                  THANK YOU!

                  YIS,

                  Nicolaus
                • Kristine Elliott
                  ... Glad to be of service. Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 8, 2005
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                    On 12/8/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > OK, for a stick jock I'm pretty on the button. But please let me
                    > know if I'm understanding.
                    >
                    > From the Reasearch ( and I thank you SO much ) I should be called:
                    >
                    > Nicolaus Brion (as a Surname?) de Dertemora (locative?)?
                    >
                    > This with Documentation, ya think the CoH might but this?
                    >
                    > I hope so, I do LOVE the sound of it.
                    >
                    > THANK YOU!
                    >
                    > YIS,
                    >
                    > Nicolaus

                    Glad to be of service.

                    Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora OR Nicolaus de Brion de Dertemora OR
                    Nicolaus de Brion of Dertemora or Nicolaus Brion of Dertemora are all
                    fine and should be registerable. I wasn't sure if you would LIKE any
                    of the 11th century spellings, which is why I included documentation
                    for a variety of spellings I could find for Nicholas, including the
                    one you have been using.

                    "Brion" or "De Brion" is still a locative -- in your name it is an
                    inherited locative, apparently on its way to becoming an inherited
                    surname. This was happening at different times and with different
                    families in England from the 11th century to the 16th, usually started
                    at the highest levels and filtering down the later socially. By the
                    16th century, we see a few peasants in isolated areas without
                    inherited surnames, but that was EXTREMELY rare by that time.

                    If you have any more questions, please let me know. I was glad to be
                    of service. I LOVE doing name research.

                    Scolastica

                    --
                    http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                    "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
                    more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
                    the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
                  • Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor
                    ... Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on my Name Submission Form. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! You are the BEST. If you are
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                      :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.

                      Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
                      my Name Submission Form.

                      Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

                      You are the BEST.

                      If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
                      We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
                      of fruit and chocolate fondue.
                      We are a Family Encampment in N19.


                      Your Humbul Servant,

                      Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
                    • Kristine Elliott
                      Replied off list. Scolastica ... -- http://www.geocities.com/souriete/ I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more than
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                        Replied off list.

                        Scolastica

                        On 12/15/05, Nicholas de Brion of Dartmoor <clawriver@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > :) ok... ;) 1 'Last' question/favor.
                        >
                        > Can I get something to use as a reference for the dual Locative on
                        > my Name Submission Form.
                        >
                        > Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
                        >
                        > You are the BEST.
                        >
                        > If you are attending Pennsic War 35, You are SO invited to Dinner.
                        > We sear mass quantities of mammal flesh, roast tubers, and eat LOTS
                        > of fruit and chocolate fondue.
                        > We are a Family Encampment in N19.
                        >
                        >
                        > Your Humbul Servant,
                        >
                        > Lord Nicolaus Brion de Dertemora
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                        "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty more
                        than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than the truth."
                        Rep. Christopher Shays.


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