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Re: [SCA Newcomers] resistance by others

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  • Jamie Schork-Morency
    Yep. But they were mostly ex-SCAdians who had had a lot of drama before they left. I pretty much told them I m going to give it a try, and at the very least I
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 14 10:39 AM
      Yep. But they were mostly ex-SCAdians who had had a lot of drama before they
      left. I pretty much told them I'm going to give it a try, and at the very
      least I get more pretty costumes for our LARPs and my husband has an excuse
      to get camping gear.
      -Jamie


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
      ... My favorite response has been to point out that interest in bird watching, collecting stamps or model trains are just as much a waste of time, money and
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 14 11:27 AM
        > Have any of you had people think you are crazy or wasting your
        > time
        > because of your interest in the SCA? What did you do, or say?

        My favorite response has been to point out that interest in bird
        watching, collecting stamps or model trains are just as much a
        "waste" of time, money and energy.

        I know a grown man who spends thousands of dollars every
        year to operate toy planes.
        At lunch just yesterday, he was bragging on the deal he got:
        He just bought 2 three thousand dollar engines for his P48
        Mustang models planes "for only 2200 each,still in the
        factory boxes!".

        You know, I dont spend that much all Pennsic.

        My father pretty much disappears every spring to go fly fishing
        all over the northeast. He compulsively ties fly after fly from about
        mid Feb to opening day readying his kit, and spends thousands
        on exotic ingredients for his flies. (Why the hell a grown man
        needs Mongolian rooster hackle is beyond me.)
        And he only does "Catch and Release", which means in the end
        he never has any fish to show for his effort.

        Most hobbies when you look at them are pretty "durned fool
        crazy" at some level.

        Once you give mundies the idea that the SCA is pretty much like
        any other more "common" hobby, they pretty much leave you
        alone. This is how I generally "sell" it to parents or relatives who
        are "concerned".

        Another thing I tie it to is the Rev war and Civil War groups that
        are pretty comon in our area.

        Capt Elias
        Dragonship Haven, East
        (Stratford, CT, USA)

        -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

        - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of Dilletanteism!
        There are SO damn many more things I want to try in the SCA
        than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

        -------------------------------------------------------------
        Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
        Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
        To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
        Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
        Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
        Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
        You stand upon the ravage and behold
        A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
        For so appears this fleet majestical,
        Holding due course to Harfleur.
        - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue
      • Jamie Schork-Morency
        My family s come to the conclusion that it can t be any weirder than my vampire LARPing. And seeing as I got a husband, a largish circle of good friends and
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 14 12:03 PM
          My family's come to the conclusion that it can't be any weirder than my
          vampire LARPing. And seeing as I got a husband, a largish circle of good
          friends and some good entries on my resume from that, they don't give me
          half the grief they used to.
          -Jamie


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
          In a message dated 10/14/2005 2:02:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 14 2:36 PM
            In a message dated 10/14/2005 2:02:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

            <<Have any of you had people think you are crazy or wasting your time
            because of your interest in the SCA? What did you do, or say?>>

            After 12 years in the SCA, my husband's mother still thinks he's going to
            "grow out of it".

            Basically, you've got two options. The first, non-confrontational and
            non-complicated thing is to smile, say "Well, I'm having fun and learning a lot,
            too", and leave it at that.

            The other one's a bit more complicated. Find out what the other person's
            favorite hobby is and do a side-by-side comparison of what you do with your
            time vs what they do with theirs. Pay special attention to what you are
            learning (both historical knowledge and new skills) and how long what you are doing
            lasts (for example, if their hobby is watching sports, it lasts for the
            duration of the game and as long as you can reasonably keep rehashing it. If you
            do calligraphy, people can enjoy your work for years.)


            Brangwayna Morgan
            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
            Lancaster, PA


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cad557@aol.com
            My husband thinks I m nuts. But I am having alot of fun.My mother, son, daughter-in-law, daughter, and 4 grandchildren are involved. I am learning so much
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 14 3:11 PM
              My husband thinks I'm nuts. But I am having alot of fun.My mother, son,
              daughter-in-law, daughter, and 4 grandchildren are involved. I am learning so much
              history of common everyday things and have gained so many friends. Other
              people just don't understand but I explain that it isn't a Renn Faire.......it is
              soooooo much more. Then they get interested and seem to understand a little
              better when I tell them what all we do. Just keep your head up and tell them
              about it. If they still think you are crazy.....Just smile!!!!

              Milisandia


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • christelle kelly
              My sister-in-law told me not to join because it was a bunch of geeks and not meaning geeks in a smart people way. Well it turns out that in the time period
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 17 7:28 AM
                My sister-in-law told me not to join because it was a "bunch of geeks" and
                not meaning geeks in a smart people way. Well it turns out that in the time
                period between when she had known people in it and I had joined, those
                people had left (they were not really the type to stick around
                anyways...more the burn bridges type). So based on my persistance....she has
                now joined and is loving it. And by persisitance I don't mean bugging her. I
                reminded her that one of the things she has always respected about me is
                that I "do my own thing" and that I would not deserve that respect if I did
                not give it a try based on her opinion. After that...I left her alone, when
                she saw me having fun, she followed.

                On 10/14/05, Jamie Schork-Morency <pouncy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yep. But they were mostly ex-SCAdians who had had a lot of drama before
                > they
                > left. I pretty much told them I'm going to give it a try, and at the very
                > least I get more pretty costumes for our LARPs and my husband has an
                > excuse
                > to get camping gear.
                > -Jamie
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                ... Heck, for several years my friends tried to get me to join the SCA, and *I* was the one who said it was a bunch of crazy weirdos and I wanted no part of
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 17 3:59 PM
                  On Friday 14 October 2005 13:17, gwyns_quest wrote:
                  > Have any of you had people think you are crazy or wasting your time
                  > because of your interest in the SCA? What did you do, or say?

                  Heck, for several years my friends tried to get me to join the SCA, and *I*
                  was the one who said it was a bunch of crazy weirdos and I wanted no part
                  of it. Then they got me to go to Pennsic 20, and I was hooked after the
                  first 30 minutes or so. :-)

                  A few years after I joined the SCA, I had the following conversation with
                  a co-worker after I returned from Pennsic:

                  Her: "So, where did you go for vacation for two weeks?"
                  Me: "It's a living history event called Pennsic war..." ...and went
                  on to explain about several thousand people living in tents and
                  learning about the Middle Ages
                  Her: "THAT'S WEIRD! Why would you want to do that?"
                  Me: (getting a little annoyed) "Well, gee, I guess any hobby that isn't
                  our own hobbies seems weird, doesn't it? I mean, probably you have
                  hobbies that others think are weird, right? We all do."
                  Her: "NO I DON'T!"
                  Me: "So, what are your hobbies?"
                  Her: "I don't have any."
                  Me: "Oh, come on. You have to do something for entertainment. Stamp
                  collecting? Fishing? Knitting? Old movies? Model trains?"
                  Her: "Nothing. I don't like hobbies."
                  Me: "Are you married? Do you have kids? If so, what do you do as a family?"
                  Her: "Married, no kids. We don't do any hobbies."
                  Me: (getting irritated again) "So, you work 40 hours a week, sleep about
                  56 hours a week, spend maybe 21 hours eating meals. What do you do with
                  the rest of the 176 hours?"
                  Her: "Nothing."
                  Me: "You can't do 'nothing'. You at least have to watch TV or something."
                  Her: "Yeah, we watch TV."
                  Me: "And.....?"
                  Her: "That's all. We like to watch TV."
                  Me: "So, let me get this straight. You work full time, and when you get time
                  off from the office, all you and your husband want to do is watch TV?
                  And you think *I'm* weird?!"

                  She slunk away after that, and never again gave me a bad time about my hobby.
                  I've learned some diplomacy since then, and wouldn't have this conversation in
                  the same way today....but I think it still illustrates the point pretty well.

                  My brother is very blunt about saying the SCA is a waste of time. It gathers
                  no food and does not serve Vaal, after all. [*] Yet he will spend *hours* each
                  week clipping coupons from the newspaper to save maybe $10 on his groceries.

                  It's all relative -- one person's waste of time is another person's passion.

                  What I tell people now is the truth: that I've met a lot of really wonderful
                  people in the SCA, many of whom are now my close friends, and I enjoy socializing
                  with them and also having a creative outlet in re-creating a bygone era. I tell
                  them that it's fun to have a hobby where I can totally step out of the modern
                  world for a few hours at a time, relaxing because it's so utterly different from
                  my high-tech modern job. I tell them that I love to camp, and the SCA has a lot
                  of opportunities for that. I tell them that the SCA is quite a bit like improv
                  theatre, only with the added attraction of learning some history while doing it.
                  Or you can turn that around, and say that the SCA is a lot like a history
                  lesson, but more exciting because you do it instead of just talking or reading
                  about it.

                  Justin

                  [*] A reference to a Star Trek episode called "The Apple", in which the natives
                  of a planet spent their entire lives slavishly "feeding" a computer-driven
                  idol called Vaal. http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/TheApple.html

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                • gwyns_quest
                  I am not defending your brother or your co-worker...but I will say this: They are just caught up in the mundane details of life. Sometimes I think that I don t
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 18 6:54 AM
                    I am not defending your brother or your co-worker...but I will say
                    this: They are just caught up in the mundane details of life.
                    Sometimes I think that I don't like being an adult, because it can be
                    so boring. It's like suddenly you have to be in survival mode,
                    without realizing you are. You have to think of a job, buying food
                    (as your brother does--he is trying to save money by clipping
                    coupons), etc. You reach a point where you start wondering what your
                    goals are, and you remember all of the ones you once had. So, I can
                    sympathize with the people you mentioned, they are most likely just
                    caught up in the drudgery of adult life. Not that all of it is like
                    that, or that every adult feels that way, but it is easy to fall into
                    the trap.
                    You are right that the SCA is a way to learn about history, and fun
                    to "live" it yourself. Anything but mundane!




                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                    <justin@4...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Friday 14 October 2005 13:17, gwyns_quest wrote:
                    > > Have any of you had people think you are crazy or wasting your
                    time
                    > > because of your interest in the SCA? What did you do, or say?
                    >
                    > Heck, for several years my friends tried to get me to join the SCA,
                    and *I*
                    > was the one who said it was a bunch of crazy weirdos and I wanted
                    no part
                    > of it. Then they got me to go to Pennsic 20, and I was hooked after
                    the
                    > first 30 minutes or so. :-)
                    >
                    > A few years after I joined the SCA, I had the following
                    conversation with
                    > a co-worker after I returned from Pennsic:
                    >
                    > Her: "So, where did you go for vacation for two weeks?"
                    > Me: "It's a living history event called Pennsic war..." ...and went
                    > on to explain about several thousand people living in tents and
                    > learning about the Middle Ages
                    > Her: "THAT'S WEIRD! Why would you want to do that?"
                    > Me: (getting a little annoyed) "Well, gee, I guess any hobby that
                    isn't
                    > our own hobbies seems weird, doesn't it? I mean, probably you
                    have
                    > hobbies that others think are weird, right? We all do."
                    > Her: "NO I DON'T!"
                    > Me: "So, what are your hobbies?"
                    > Her: "I don't have any."
                    > Me: "Oh, come on. You have to do something for entertainment. Stamp
                    > collecting? Fishing? Knitting? Old movies? Model trains?"
                    > Her: "Nothing. I don't like hobbies."
                    > Me: "Are you married? Do you have kids? If so, what do you do as a
                    family?"
                    > Her: "Married, no kids. We don't do any hobbies."
                    > Me: (getting irritated again) "So, you work 40 hours a week, sleep
                    about
                    > 56 hours a week, spend maybe 21 hours eating meals. What do
                    you do with
                    > the rest of the 176 hours?"
                    > Her: "Nothing."
                    > Me: "You can't do 'nothing'. You at least have to watch TV or
                    something."
                    > Her: "Yeah, we watch TV."
                    > Me: "And.....?"
                    > Her: "That's all. We like to watch TV."
                    > Me: "So, let me get this straight. You work full time, and when
                    you get time
                    > off from the office, all you and your husband want to do is
                    watch TV?
                    > And you think *I'm* weird?!"
                    >
                    > She slunk away after that, and never again gave me a bad time about
                    my hobby.
                    > I've learned some diplomacy since then, and wouldn't have this
                    conversation in
                    > the same way today....but I think it still illustrates the point
                    pretty well.
                    >
                    > My brother is very blunt about saying the SCA is a waste of time.
                    It gathers
                    > no food and does not serve Vaal, after all. [*] Yet he will spend
                    *hours* each
                    > week clipping coupons from the newspaper to save maybe $10 on his
                    groceries.
                    >
                    > It's all relative -- one person's waste of time is another person's
                    passion.
                    >
                    > What I tell people now is the truth: that I've met a lot of really
                    wonderful
                    > people in the SCA, many of whom are now my close friends, and I
                    enjoy socializing
                    > with them and also having a creative outlet in re-creating a bygone
                    era. I tell
                    > them that it's fun to have a hobby where I can totally step out of
                    the modern
                    > world for a few hours at a time, relaxing because it's so utterly
                    different from
                    > my high-tech modern job. I tell them that I love to camp, and the
                    SCA has a lot
                    > of opportunities for that. I tell them that the SCA is quite a bit
                    like improv
                    > theatre, only with the added attraction of learning some history
                    while doing it.
                    > Or you can turn that around, and say that the SCA is a lot like a
                    history
                    > lesson, but more exciting because you do it instead of just talking
                    or reading
                    > about it.
                    >
                    > Justin
                    >
                    > [*] A reference to a Star Trek episode called "The Apple", in which
                    the natives
                    > of a planet spent their entire lives slavishly "feeding" a
                    computer-driven
                    > idol called Vaal.
                    http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/TheApple.html
                    >
                    > --
                    > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]
                    xxxx()
                    > Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                    > keys fesswise reversed sable.
                    >
                    > Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)
                    http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    > justin@4... PGP Public Key at
                    http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                    >
                  • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... True, but he s compulsive about it, and he doesn t count the value of his *time*. Time with his wife and daughter is precious. How much time with your
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 18 7:27 AM
                      On Tuesday 18 October 2005 09:54, gwyns_quest wrote:
                      > I am not defending your brother or your co-worker...but I will say
                      > this: They are just caught up in the mundane details of life.
                      > Sometimes I think that I don't like being an adult, because it can be
                      > so boring. It's like suddenly you have to be in survival mode,
                      > without realizing you are. You have to think of a job, buying food
                      > (as your brother does--he is trying to save money by clipping
                      > coupons), etc.

                      True, but he's compulsive about it, and he doesn't count the value of his
                      *time*. Time with his wife and daughter is precious. How much time with
                      your family are you willing to give up to save 15 cents on toilet paper?
                      He's in an income bracket where this savings is not significant; this is
                      about control issues, not about really needing the money.

                      My brother also has in common with my former co-worker another trait: they
                      both are terrified, deep down in their souls, of being different in any
                      way from what they see as societal norms. "Normal, acceptable people don't
                      dress up in medieval clothes and learn how to make mead. Normal, acceptable
                      people watch American Idol or Friends on TV instead. WHAT WILL PEOPLE THINK
                      ABOUT ME?!"

                      It's funny how society says it's perfectly normal to paint your face half
                      black and half orange, go to a football game, strip off your shirt, wave
                      it in the air, and bark like a dog in front of forty thousand people, but
                      it's "weird" if you want to learn about 14th century Italian embroidery
                      in a classroom with eighteen of your friends. :-) There's an old saying
                      that the difference between a "religion" and a "cult" is that the former has
                      a lot of members and the latter has only a few. I think this logic applies
                      to hobbies, too. There are more football fans than living history buffs.

                      > You reach a point where you start wondering what your
                      > goals are, and you remember all of the ones you once had. So, I can
                      > sympathize with the people you mentioned, they are most likely just
                      > caught up in the drudgery of adult life. Not that all of it is like
                      > that, or that every adult feels that way, but it is easy to fall into
                      > the trap.

                      Very true. And at the end of life, you look back and wonder if it was even
                      worth being born. Heck, I have what I consider to be a very fulfilling life,
                      and yet I still find myself feeling that I've wasted too many hours writing
                      computer software to make my living, and not spent nearly enough hours helping
                      others. I can't even imagine how oppressively crushing it would feel to look
                      back on a lifetime where there was absolutely nothing but my job, where I had
                      never even *tried* to break out now and then and see a larger picture.

                      > You are right that the SCA is a way to learn about history, and fun
                      > to "live" it yourself. Anything but mundane!

                      Part of what makes the SCA appear weird to outsiders is the kind of people
                      we attract. Living history groups, by their nature, attract people who have
                      a lot of imagination, a lot of energy, and a good deal of intellect. Such
                      individuals tend also to be eclectic in their preferences and behaviors.
                      The SCA is full of people who are not afraid to be different, and so of
                      course the organization reflects that attitude. From the outside, what we
                      call "not afraid to be different" looks like "doesn't care about what
                      other people think." Almost all cultures are threatened by things that don't
                      conform to their mores. Also, cultures tend to define their own boundaries
                      not only by what their own culture is, but also by how members of other
                      cultures do not fit that model. We categorize things by what they are and
                      also by what they aren't. So people outside the SCA are using our eclectic
                      subculture to define a boundary of their own more conventional subcultures.
                      They don't necessarily mean anything bad by this; it's an instinctive
                      reaction for many people, happening beneath the level of conscious thought.

                      Gee, that got a bit more convoluted than I had intended. Sorry. :-)

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                      keys fesswise reversed sable.

                      Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                    • Sydney Walker Freedman
                      ... TV? What s that? (just kidding!) I find the majority of what is on TV uninteresting and/or immoral, and since I m a music major, turning on American
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 18 8:01 AM
                        > On Tuesday 18 October 2005 09:54, gwyns_quest wrote:
                        > > I am not defending your brother or your co-worker...but I will say
                        > > this: They are just caught up in the mundane details of life.
                        > > Sometimes I think that I don't like being an adult, because it can be
                        > > so boring. It's like suddenly you have to be in survival mode,
                        > > without realizing you are. You have to think of a job, buying food
                        > > (as your brother does--he is trying to save money by clipping
                        > > coupons), etc.
                        >
                        > True, but he's compulsive about it, and he doesn't count the value of his
                        > *time*. Time with his wife and daughter is precious. How much time with
                        > your family are you willing to give up to save 15 cents on toilet paper?
                        > He's in an income bracket where this savings is not significant; this is
                        > about control issues, not about really needing the money.
                        >
                        > My brother also has in common with my former co-worker another trait:
                        > they
                        > both are terrified, deep down in their souls, of being different in any
                        > way from what they see as societal norms. "Normal, acceptable people
                        > don't
                        > dress up in medieval clothes and learn how to make mead. Normal,
                        > acceptable
                        > people watch American Idol or Friends on TV instead. WHAT WILL PEOPLE
                        > THINK
                        > ABOUT ME?!"
                        TV? What's that? (just kidding!) I find the majority of what is on TV
                        uninteresting and/or immoral, and since I'm a music major, turning on
                        American Idol is one of the best ways to get me out of the house. :) I
                        honestly don't remember the last time I watched television (this doesn't
                        include the movies I've watched in my college classes). anyway, the point
                        of all of that was to illustrate just how "abnormal" i am, especially
                        compared with your coworker. :)
                        >
                        > It's funny how society says it's perfectly normal to paint your face half
                        > black and half orange, go to a football game, strip off your shirt, wave
                        > it in the air, and bark like a dog in front of forty thousand people, but
                        > it's "weird" if you want to learn about 14th century Italian
                        > embroidery
                        > in a classroom with eighteen of your friends. :-) There's an old saying
                        > that the difference between a "religion" and a "cult"
                        > is that the former has
                        > a lot of members and the latter has only a few. I think this logic
                        > applies
                        > to hobbies, too. There are more football fans than living history buffs.
                        So, if we take this analogy to its logical conclusion, the SCA is a cult.
                        :) You've just told a very conventional Lutheran that she is now a member
                        of a cult. :) *gasp*
                        >
                        > > You reach a point where you start wondering what your
                        > > goals are, and you remember all of the ones you once had. So, I can
                        > > sympathize with the people you mentioned, they are most likely just
                        > > caught up in the drudgery of adult life. Not that all of it is like
                        > > that, or that every adult feels that way, but it is easy to fall into
                        > > the trap.
                        >
                        > Very true. And at the end of life, you look back and wonder if it was
                        > even
                        > worth being born. Heck, I have what I consider to be a very fulfilling
                        > life,
                        > and yet I still find myself feeling that I've wasted too many hours
                        > writing
                        > computer software to make my living, and not spent nearly enough hours
                        > helping
                        > others. I can't even imagine how oppressively crushing it would feel to
                        > look
                        > back on a lifetime where there was absolutely nothing but my job, where I
                        > had
                        > never even *tried* to break out now and then and see a larger picture.
                        I'm currently at the point in life wher I have many goals and am looking
                        at a larger picture (of course not literally, especially in my case :) ),
                        and I hope that I will never get stuck in a rut.
                        By the way, by doing your job as a computer programmer, you are
                        helping a large number of people. If it weren't for people like you,
                        I wouldn't even be able to use a computer. (For those of you who are
                        new to the list, I'm blind and use special screen reading programs.)
                        >
                        > > You are right that the SCA is a way to learn about history, and fun
                        > > to "live" it yourself. Anything but mundane!
                        >
                        > Part of what makes the SCA appear weird to outsiders is the kind of
                        > people
                        > we attract. Living history groups, by their nature, attract people who
                        > have
                        > a lot of imagination, a lot of energy, and a good deal of intellect. Such
                        > individuals tend also to be eclectic in their preferences and behaviors.
                        > The SCA is full of people who are not afraid to be different, and so of
                        > course the organization reflects that attitude. From the outside, what we
                        > call "not afraid to be different" looks like "doesn't care
                        > about what
                        > other people think." Almost all cultures are threatened by things
                        > that don't
                        > conform to their mores. Also, cultures tend to define their own
                        > boundaries
                        > not only by what their own culture is, but also by how members of other
                        > cultures do not fit that model. We categorize things by what they are and
                        > also by what they aren't. So people outside the SCA are using our
                        > eclectic
                        > subculture to define a boundary of their own more conventional
                        > subcultures.
                        > They don't necessarily mean anything bad by this; it's an instinctive
                        > reaction for many people, happening beneath the level of conscious
                        > thought.
                        >
                        > Gee, that got a bit more convoluted than I had intended. Sorry. :-)
                        Now you have my lame jokes to counteract that. Sorry; this is what
                        happens when I get bored.
                        >
                        > Justin
                        >
                        > --
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                        Pax Christi,
                        Sydney
                      • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                        ... I ve never even watched the show. I know what it s about from seeing previews, and it holds no interest for me. Most stars are now manufactured based on
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 18 8:29 AM
                          On Tuesday 18 October 2005 11:01, Sydney Walker Freedman wrote:
                          > TV? What's that? (just kidding!) I find the majority of what is on TV
                          > uninteresting and/or immoral, and since I'm a music major, turning on
                          > American Idol is one of the best ways to get me out of the house. :)

                          I've never even watched the show. I know what it's about from seeing previews,
                          and it holds no interest for me. Most "stars" are now manufactured based on
                          marketing analysis by the media companies; they see a performer and say, "This
                          person will reach the affluent 18~25-year-old demographic. Let's get the
                          PR machine rolling and make them famous." To me, American Idol is just a new
                          way of researching the market demographics. Blech.

                          > I honestly don't remember the last time I watched television (this doesn't
                          > include the movies I've watched in my college classes). anyway, the point
                          > of all of that was to illustrate just how "abnormal" i am, especially
                          > compared with your coworker. :)

                          I watch occasionally, but it's the lowest-priority activity in my life. There
                          is not a single show on TV that will cause me to rearrange my schedule of
                          other things. I enjoy Law and Order, and The Daily Show, and a couple of others,
                          but if I've got something better to do, they are entirely forgotten with no
                          regrets. I love movies, but my lady wife (Milica of Varna, who is also on this
                          list) is an A-V librarian in mundania, and brings home lots of good stuff!
                          (In fact, one of the things I adore about her is that she broadens my mind by
                          bringing home films I've never heard of and talking me into watching them.)

                          > So, if we take this analogy to its logical conclusion, the SCA is a cult.
                          > :) You've just told a very conventional Lutheran that she is now a member
                          > of a cult. :) *gasp*

                          We have been called that on more than one occasion. People learn that there
                          are Pagans in the SCA and assume that means the SCA is a "Pagan cult". They
                          never seem to wonder whether the fact that we also have Catholics makes it
                          a Catholic cult, or our Jewish members make it a Jewish cult, or our
                          fundamentalist Protestant members make it an Evangelical Christian Cult.

                          The fact of the matter is, the SCA is a secular organization. We study the
                          religions of the Middle Ages in an historical context, but we don't recreate
                          any single religion -- Pagan, Christian, or other. Members are free to believe
                          as they wish, and to practice their own faith (or choose not to do so) as
                          private individuals, according to their own conscience. No one is allowed to
                          make a ceremony or ritual of *any* religion an official part of an SCA event,
                          or to compel others to participate. For example, you can say Grace with your
                          family at an SCA feast if you wish, but you can't stand up and lead the whole
                          room in prayer.

                          Interestingly enough, the SCA is just full of people from many religious
                          faiths, and somehow we all learn to respect one another's differences and just
                          get along. If only we could export that to the rest of the world.

                          But we are still labeled a cult from time to time, so your humorous analogy
                          is actually fairly accurate. :-)

                          > I'm currently at the point in life wher I have many goals and am looking
                          > at a larger picture (of course not literally, especially in my case :) ),
                          > and I hope that I will never get stuck in a rut.

                          I was getting that way. The SCA helped break me out of it, as did community
                          theatre, and most of all, my discovery of a wonderful lady who became my
                          wife. The kindest wish I can give to anyone is to find a life partner who
                          will still challenge and intellectually engage you after a dozen years
                          together!

                          > By the way, by doing your job as a computer programmer, you are
                          > helping a large number of people. If it weren't for people like you,
                          > I wouldn't even be able to use a computer. (For those of you who are
                          > new to the list, I'm blind and use special screen reading programs.)

                          Thank you for the kind words. Most of what programmers do has no such noble
                          purpose. I have, in recent years, become a contributor to the Open Source
                          software movement, which allows me to use my talents to create programs that
                          can be freely used by anyone in the world. That feels very good, and it's
                          great to get an email from someone saying my software helped them do something
                          useful.

                          > Now you have my lame jokes to counteract that. Sorry; this is what
                          > happens when I get bored.

                          I wouldn't call your post "lame" at all, but rather insightful.

                          Justin

                          --
                          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                          keys fesswise reversed sable.

                          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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