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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question

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  • Maria
    First of all, Welcome. Now, about your question. Personally, around here, the only thing we ask of Newcomers is that they make an ATTEMPT at period clothing.
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 11, 2005
      First of all, Welcome.

      Now, about your question. Personally, around here, the only thing we ask of Newcomers is that they make an ATTEMPT at period clothing. So, yes your dress is fine. If you want to make alterations to it, that's fine. But you're fine as far as I'm concerned.

      You may want to ask some of the experienced members (especially someone who's known for garb making) if they can help you to alter it later to make it more period.

      Maria
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Melissa
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:56 AM
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


      Hello everyone,
      I am new to the SCA, and I have picked 15th century Italy for my time
      period. I'm going to a newcomers festival in a couple of weeks, and
      I'm not sure what to wear.
      I have a purple velvet "renaissance" dress from a halloween several
      years back. I pulled off all of the fake shiny trim today, and it is
      actually a good length and cut from what I've seen from paintings and
      such. I plan to take off the sleeves and redo them as the material
      used is this shiny purple stuff that looks terrible.
      I guess my question is, is that an appropriate dress for me to wear?
      I don't want to be, well, "out of my league," I guess. For some
      reason I feel like purple was only for upperclass. Is that true or is
      that even relavent?
      Sorry if I'm rambling. Thanks for any answers you may have.
      Melissa







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    • Patrick Callahan
      Dear Melissa, I would say that traditionally, like in the old middle ages, purple was reserved for royals and the upper-class, but not in our time. At the SCA
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
        Dear Melissa,

        I would say that traditionally, like in the old middle ages, purple was
        reserved for royals and the upper-class, but not in our time. At the SCA
        all are consider gentles, meaning all are people of means. You can wear
        what ever colors you want therefore with out worries about class. Also I
        would echo the say "an attempt at medieval garb" most people are not that
        critical of garb. Especially on newcomers. Some people may be studying the
        old ways of clothing making and be available to teach it, but they wont say
        yours is wrong. Because it isn't. Not for the SCA.

        Thanks,

        Lost And Confused
      • Maria
        Actually purple wasn t reserved for the royals and upper classes. The purple dye was VERY expensive and ordinary people couldn t afford purple cloth.
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
          Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals and upper classes. The purple dye was VERY expensive and ordinary people couldn't afford purple cloth. That's the reason it has always been assumed that purple was reserved for royals. Only the royals could afford it.

          Maria
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Patrick Callahan
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:51 AM
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


          Dear Melissa,

          I would say that traditionally, like in the old middle ages, purple was
          reserved for royals and the upper-class, but not in our time. At the SCA
          all are consider gentles, meaning all are people of means. You can wear
          what ever colors you want therefore with out worries about class. Also I
          would echo the say "an attempt at medieval garb" most people are not that
          critical of garb. Especially on newcomers. Some people may be studying the
          old ways of clothing making and be available to teach it, but they wont say
          yours is wrong. Because it isn't. Not for the SCA.

          Thanks,

          Lost And Confused




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        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
          ... One particular shade of purple was reserved for the Imperial family during certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red shoes (believe it or not).
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
            On Tuesday 13 September 2005 12:46, Maria wrote:
            > Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals and upper classes.

            One particular shade of purple was reserved for the Imperial family during
            certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red shoes (believe it or not).

            That doesn't contradict what you say, because the questioner was asking about
            European culture, but I wanted to share the information just for fun. :-)

            Justin
            Whose persona is proud to live in Rome (which you westerners call Byzantium)

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
            keys fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
          • Maria
            Thanks I didn t realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I don t actually know what
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
              Thanks I didn't realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I don't actually know what creature). But I don't know much about Byzantine culture. Thanks for the info.

              M
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:34 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


              On Tuesday 13 September 2005 12:46, Maria wrote:
              > Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals and upper classes.

              One particular shade of purple was reserved for the Imperial family during
              certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red shoes (believe it or not).

              That doesn't contradict what you say, because the questioner was asking about
              European culture, but I wanted to share the information just for fun. :-)

              Justin
              Whose persona is proud to live in Rome (which you westerners call Byzantium)

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
              keys fesswise reversed sable.

              Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey


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            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
              ... The purple they reserved for royalty was apparently not what we think of today as purple , but rather only the very deep, almost dark-blue shade that was
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
                On Tuesday 13 September 2005 17:45, Maria wrote:
                > But I don't know much about Byzantine culture.

                The purple they reserved for royalty was apparently not what we think of
                today as "purple", but rather only the very deep, almost dark-blue shade
                that was very hard to attain in period. Or so I'm told. I've not see an
                extant garment in that particular shade personally.

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
              • Janet
                As always, Justin keeps us on our toes with his handy facts. :) ... ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
                  As always, Justin keeps us on our toes with his handy
                  facts. :)


                  --- Iustinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
                  wrote:

                  > On Tuesday 13 September 2005 12:46, Maria wrote:
                  > > Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals
                  > and upper classes.
                  >
                  > One particular shade of purple was reserved for the
                  > Imperial family during
                  > certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red
                  > shoes (believe it or not).
                  >
                  > That doesn't contradict what you say, because the
                  > questioner was asking about
                  > European culture, but I wanted to share the
                  > information just for fun. :-)
                  >
                  > Justin
                  > Whose persona is proud to live in Rome (which you
                  > westerners call Byzantium)
                  >
                  > --
                  > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>
                  > <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  > Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott
                  > Courtney)
                  > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief
                  > dovetailed Or two
                  > keys fesswise reversed sable.
                  >
                  > Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)
                  > http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  > justin@... PGP Public Key at
                  > http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                  >





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                • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                  ... One of my very few handy historical facts. It s my lady wife who is the history wiz in the family, not me. :-) -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 13, 2005
                    On Tuesday 13 September 2005 22:27, Janet wrote:
                    > As always, Justin keeps us on our toes with his handy
                    > facts.  :)

                    One of my very few handy historical facts. It's my lady wife who is the
                    history wiz in the family, not me. :-)

                    --
                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                    Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                    keys fesswise reversed sable.

                    Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                  • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                    ... Tyrian purple (purpura) comes from the Murex, a kind of gastropod (snail type shellfish). Specifically it s made from the Murex Brandaris and Murex
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 15, 2005
                      > Thanks I didn't realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY
                      > expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I
                      > don't actually know what creature). But I don't know much about
                      > Byzantine culture. Thanks for the info.

                      Tyrian purple (purpura) comes from the Murex, a kind of gastropod
                      (snail type shellfish).

                      Specifically it's made from the Murex Brandaris and Murex Trunculus
                      Here's a picture:
                      http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/murexpurple.htm

                      The Dye is extracted from a small organ in the creature.
                      It takes a LOT of murex to make the dye (12000 to make 1.5 grams,
                      barely enough to dye a cloak!), which is why it was so expensive.

                      Closely related colors are shade of Scarlet and a shade of Royal Blue,
                      also made from Murex dye.
                      (the "purple" of Murex Brandaris is more red in nature than the "purple"
                      of Murex Trunculus, which was more blue - combining them yeilds a
                      deep royal purple..)
                      Treating the dye with different chemicals and mordants can change
                      the shade subtly.

                      Such colors were used as "conspicuous consumption" to demonstrate
                      wealth and status.


                      Capt Elias
                      Dragonship Haven, East
                      (Stratford, CT, USA)

                      -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

                      - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of Dilletanteism!
                      There are SO damn many more things I want to try in the SCA
                      than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

                      -------------------------------------------------------------
                      Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
                      Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
                      To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
                      Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
                      Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
                      Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
                      You stand upon the ravage and behold
                      A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
                      For so appears this fleet majestical,
                      Holding due course to Harfleur.
                      - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Maria <scarlettmb@...>
                      Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:45 pm
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question

                      > Thanks I didn't realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY
                      > expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I
                      > don't actually know what creature). But I don't know much about
                      > Byzantine culture. Thanks for the info.
                      >
                      > M
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:34 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question
                      >
                      >
                      > On Tuesday 13 September 2005 12:46, Maria wrote:
                      > > Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals and upper
                      > classes.
                      > One particular shade of purple was reserved for the Imperial
                      > family during
                      > certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red shoes
                      > (believe it or not).
                      >
                      > That doesn't contradict what you say, because the questioner was
                      > asking about
                      > European culture, but I wanted to share the information just for
                      > fun. :-)
                      >
                      > Justin
                      > Whose persona is proud to live in Rome (which you westerners
                      > call Byzantium)
                      >
                      > --
                      > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>
                      > <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx() Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                      > (Scott Courtney)
                      > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                      > keys fesswise reversed sable.
                      >
                      > Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)
                      > http://4th.com/sca/justin/ justin@... PGP Public Key
                      > at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS Medieval and renaissance costume Medieval times
                      > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                      >
                      >
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                      >
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                    • Maria
                      Thanks for that info. I wasn t sure what shellfish it was but I did know that it was something like that. Maria ... From: gedney@OPTONLINE.NET To:
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 15, 2005
                        Thanks for that info. I wasn't sure what shellfish it was but I did know that it was something like that.

                        Maria
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: gedney@...
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:39 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question



                        > Thanks I didn't realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY
                        > expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I
                        > don't actually know what creature). But I don't know much about
                        > Byzantine culture. Thanks for the info.

                        Tyrian purple (purpura) comes from the Murex, a kind of gastropod
                        (snail type shellfish).

                        Specifically it's made from the Murex Brandaris and Murex Trunculus
                        Here's a picture:
                        http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/murexpurple.htm

                        The Dye is extracted from a small organ in the creature.
                        It takes a LOT of murex to make the dye (12000 to make 1.5 grams,
                        barely enough to dye a cloak!), which is why it was so expensive.

                        Closely related colors are shade of Scarlet and a shade of Royal Blue,
                        also made from Murex dye.
                        (the "purple" of Murex Brandaris is more red in nature than the "purple"
                        of Murex Trunculus, which was more blue - combining them yeilds a
                        deep royal purple..)
                        Treating the dye with different chemicals and mordants can change
                        the shade subtly.

                        Such colors were used as "conspicuous consumption" to demonstrate
                        wealth and status.


                        Capt Elias
                        Dragonship Haven, East
                        (Stratford, CT, USA)

                        -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

                        - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of Dilletanteism!
                        There are SO damn many more things I want to try in the SCA
                        than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

                        -------------------------------------------------------------
                        Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
                        Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
                        To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
                        Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
                        Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
                        Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
                        You stand upon the ravage and behold
                        A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
                        For so appears this fleet majestical,
                        Holding due course to Harfleur.
                        - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Maria <scarlettmb@...>
                        Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:45 pm
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question

                        > Thanks I didn't realize that. I knew that the purple dye was VERY
                        > expensive because it came from a sea creature of some sort (I
                        > don't actually know what creature). But I don't know much about
                        > Byzantine culture. Thanks for the info.
                        >
                        > M
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:34 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tuesday 13 September 2005 12:46, Maria wrote:
                        > > Actually purple wasn't "reserved" for the royals and upper
                        > classes.
                        > One particular shade of purple was reserved for the Imperial
                        > family during
                        > certain periods in Byzantine culture...as were red shoes
                        > (believe it or not).
                        >
                        > That doesn't contradict what you say, because the questioner was
                        > asking about
                        > European culture, but I wanted to share the information just for
                        > fun. :-)
                        >
                        > Justin
                        > Whose persona is proud to live in Rome (which you westerners
                        > call Byzantium)
                        >
                        > --
                        > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>
                        > <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx() Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                        > (Scott Courtney)
                        > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                        > keys fesswise reversed sable.
                        >
                        > Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)
                        > http://4th.com/sca/justin/ justin@... PGP Public Key
                        > at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                        >
                        >
                        > SPONSORED LINKS Medieval and renaissance costume Medieval times
                        > Medieval time dinner and tournament
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > -----------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > a.. Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                        >
                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                        > of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > -----------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                        > ~-->
                        > Life without art & music? Keep the arts alive today at Network for
                        > Good!http://us.click.yahoo.com/FXrMlA/dnQLAA/Zx0JAA/LmiolB/TM
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                        >
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                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Melissa
                        Thanks to all those who replied with info :) Unfortunately, I didn t finish the dress, so I m not going to be able to wear it. I ll have to finish it and
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 21, 2005
                          Thanks to all those who replied with info :) Unfortunately, I didn't
                          finish the dress, so I'm not going to be able to wear it. I'll have to
                          finish it and wear it another time.
                          Melissa

                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:39 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question
                        • Becki
                          Being new to all of this, my question is this, I have several very expensive ren faire outfits, and although they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                            Being new to all of this, my question is this, I have
                            several very expensive ren faire outfits, and although
                            they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                            materials used are not authentic :) Also, I am going
                            to try and get into target archery and I fully inted
                            to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                            definatly not period for a lady. So, will there be
                            fashion police that have issues with garb, because to
                            be honest, I like the fashon for the 16 and 17th
                            centries much better lol :)

                            and women doing anything is not really period either
                            but I am not much for following such things (me and
                            Joan of Arc, of course she came to a bad end, soooo
                            lol)

                            Thanks
                            Isabella (Rebecca)

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                          • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                            ... From: Becki To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Garb
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Becki" <rebeccaatthewell_2000@...>
                              To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:59 AM
                              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


                              > Being new to all of this, my question is this, I have
                              > several very expensive ren faire outfits, and although
                              > they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                              > materials used are not authentic :) Also, I am going
                              > to try and get into target archery and I fully inted
                              > to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                              > definatly not period for a lady. So, will there be
                              > fashion police that have issues with garb, because to
                              > be honest, I like the fashon for the 16 and 17th
                              > centries much better lol :)

                              Lots of women dress in male clothing, and it shouldn't be an issue.

                              17th century clothing, OTOH, is an issue, at least for SCA events. The SCA
                              stops at 1600, so 17th century clothing is out.

                              But the 16th century is much more fun, anyway.Welcome to the dark side....

                              Laurensa
                              >
                              > and women doing anything is not really period either
                              > but I am not much for following such things (me and
                              > Joan of Arc, of course she came to a bad end, soooo
                              > lol)
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              > Isabella (Rebecca)
                              >
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                            • Kristine Elliott
                              ... To some degree, that depends on the area of the SCA. Some places are more forgiving of Cavaliers than others. Scolastica --
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                On 3/14/06, Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Becki" <rebeccaatthewell_2000@...>
                                > To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:59 AM
                                > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question
                                >
                                >
                                > > Being new to all of this, my question is this, I have
                                > > several very expensive ren faire outfits, and although
                                > > they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                                > > materials used are not authentic :) Also, I am going
                                > > to try and get into target archery and I fully inted
                                > > to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                                > > definatly not period for a lady. So, will there be
                                > > fashion police that have issues with garb, because to
                                > > be honest, I like the fashon for the 16 and 17th
                                > > centries much better lol :)
                                >
                                > Lots of women dress in male clothing, and it shouldn't be an issue.
                                >
                                > 17th century clothing, OTOH, is an issue, at least for SCA events. The SCA
                                > stops at 1600, so 17th century clothing is out.
                                >

                                To some degree, that depends on the area of the SCA. Some places are
                                more forgiving of Cavaliers than others.

                                Scolastica

                                --
                                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                                "I have come to the conclusion that this administration values loyalty
                                more than anything else, more than competence or, frankly, more than
                                the truth." Rep. Christopher Shays.
                              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                ... There s nothing wrong with wearing male-type garb if you want to. Alternatively, I ve seen quite a few ladies doing archery in close-fitting, simple
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                  On Tuesday 14 March 2006 08:59, Becki wrote:
                                  > Also, I am going
                                  > to try and get into target archery and I fully inted
                                  > to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                                  > definatly not period for a lady.

                                  There's nothing wrong with wearing male-type garb if you want to. Alternatively,
                                  I've seen quite a few ladies doing archery in close-fitting, simple dresses
                                  that are quite authentic and yet don't have large sleeves or elaborate trim
                                  that would catch a bowstring.

                                  Justin

                                  --
                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                • Jeff Suzuki
                                  ... Well, gee, none of us EVER used polyester...;-) I only have two qualms about inauthentic materials (as opposed to, say, Barney print fabric...). The first
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                    --- Becki <rebeccaatthewell_2000@...> wrote:

                                    > Being new to all of this, my question is this, I
                                    > have
                                    > several very expensive ren faire outfits, and
                                    > although
                                    > they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                                    > materials used are not authentic :)

                                    Well, gee, none of us EVER used polyester...;-)

                                    I only have two qualms about inauthentic materials (as
                                    opposed to, say, Barney print fabric...). The first
                                    is that they aren't as comfortable; it's actually
                                    gotten to the point where I can't wear synthetic
                                    fibers without itching.

                                    The other (and more serious) qualm is that they can be
                                    nasty fire hazards. Polyester, for example, will go
                                    up like a petroleum product when ignited...and melt.
                                    Cotton and linen burn and flake. Silk, the wonder
                                    fabric, self-extinguishes.

                                    > and I fully inted
                                    > to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                                    > definatly not period for a lady. So, will there be
                                    > fashion police that have issues with garb

                                    Probably...but they're just a very loud minority.
                                    Most of us are happy to have people participate, and
                                    if we have objections, we try to lead rather than
                                    dictate...

                                    Jeffs/etc.

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                                  • Maria
                                    Becki, First of all Welcome to the SCA. You will find most people to be relatifely easygoing about garb, etc. That being said - you ll find fashion police in
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                      Becki,

                                      First of all Welcome to the SCA. You will find most people to be relatifely easygoing about garb, etc.

                                      That being said - you'll find fashion police in every group. They are the monority mostly but they are there. If they give you too much trouble, I like to say, "Well, gee if you're offering to make me some more authentic garb I really appreciate it. When can I come for a fitting?" If they are truely trying to help, they'll agree to it. If not, they'll walk away having been nicely chastized.

                                      As for the non-dress outfit, don't worry about not being period for women. We have many women who wear pants and tunics. Don't worry about it. I am a photographer and personally like to wear pants and a tunic when I'm photographing an event. And pants are period for women if you're doing a chinese persona. The women wore pants like pajama pants under their long tunics and Chuppa coats.

                                      The most important thing I can tell you is ... THIS IS A GAME!! Have fun with it.

                                      In Service to the Dream,
                                      Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici, SSG
                                      Maria Buchanan
                                      Official Worrier of House Starfire
                                      Hospitaler - Barony of the Stargate
                                      Hospitaler - Shire of Gate's Edge
                                      In the Stellar Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                      281-433-0347
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Becki
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:59 AM
                                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


                                      Being new to all of this, my question is this, I have
                                      several very expensive ren faire outfits, and although
                                      they are for the most part accurate in style, the
                                      materials used are not authentic :) Also, I am going
                                      to try and get into target archery and I fully inted
                                      to get together a "non dress" outfit and that is
                                      definatly not period for a lady. So, will there be
                                      fashion police that have issues with garb, because to
                                      be honest, I like the fashon for the 16 and 17th
                                      centries much better lol :)

                                      and women doing anything is not really period either
                                      but I am not much for following such things (me and
                                      Joan of Arc, of course she came to a bad end, soooo
                                      lol)

                                      Thanks
                                      Isabella (Rebecca)

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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                      ... Not to disagree with your basic point, but I d have to say they re not in *every* group. Our local shire is pretty laid back. I think a lot of this varies
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                        On Tuesday 14 March 2006 13:53, Maria wrote:
                                        > That being said - you'll find fashion police in every group.

                                        Not to disagree with your basic point, but I'd have to say they're not
                                        in *every* group. Our local shire is pretty laid back. I think a lot of
                                        this varies from one geographic region to another; here in the Marche of
                                        Alderford (Canton, Ohio), as long as you meet the basic SCA rule of
                                        "an attempt at pre-1600 costume" nobody will give you a bad time.

                                        I'm not disputing your point, just saying that I don't think the problem
                                        is quite as widespread as many newcomers assume. You were spot-on in your
                                        advice about how to handle it, though. The SCA Inc. only requires "an
                                        attempt" -- anything beyond that is at the discretion of the individual.
                                        Heck, I'm a Peer of the Realm and most of my garb looks just about the
                                        same as my garb looked the day I first joined. I respect those who work
                                        hard to make really elaborate garb -- and in fact I'm learning to sew
                                        for myself, and enjoying it -- but there will never be a day when I'm
                                        willing to spend 100+ hours making one Court outfit. I respect the skill
                                        in others, but it's not my thing.

                                        The truly sincere authenticity mavens -- and here I will point to this
                                        list's own Brangwayna as a positive example -- want to *help* others be
                                        as authentic as possible, and can teach you lots of terrific ways to have
                                        very-authentic garb without spending a fortune in time or money. People
                                        like Brangwayna (and I hope she doesn't mind being used as a favorable
                                        example) have the aim of teaching, not criticism, and in many cases the
                                        reward for them is that they genuinely have *fun* helping others learn.

                                        As for those few people who make themselves feel important by belittling
                                        others -- well, they are unworthy of notice from civilized folk
                                        such as the denizens of this list -- so mostly I just ignore them. :-)
                                        Fortunately they are, as Maria pointed out, a small minority in this large
                                        organization, and there are plenty of *nice* folk to play with!

                                        As a bit of practical advice, if you should happen to encounter a garb
                                        critic, the simple statement of "I'm new, and this is my first garb" will
                                        usually cause them to remember their courtesy. Or, you will learn that they
                                        were genuinely trying to be helpful rather than judgmental, and you may meet
                                        a new friend. Sometimes well-intentioned people just don't have much skill
                                        at phrasing. :-) To paraphrase Duke Cariadoc, "Never ascribe to malice that
                                        which can be explained by error."

                                        Justin

                                        --
                                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                        Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                        keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                      • elchimpster
                                        Looks like Justin is all over it. ;) Honestly, the vast majority of folks are purely helpful, the few true elitists who revel in snobbery and few and far
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                          Looks like Justin is all over it. ;)

                                          Honestly, the vast majority of folks are purely helpful, the few true
                                          elitists who revel in snobbery and few and far between, and honestly
                                          you may never neet one. Most branches are full of people just like
                                          you: coming to an event on a weekend to have fun, dress up in
                                          medievaloid garb, and learning to do medieval stuff better and learn
                                          something.

                                          You don't have to have perfect garb, or really anything more than an
                                          effort at garb at all, and be generally nice, and you'll get along
                                          fine at most any event anywhere. Don't worry about titles and all that
                                          "milord/ milady" is the SCAdian version of "hey you" when you don't
                                          know and it's perfectly acceptable.

                                          The rest you'll figure out by osmosis over time. No worries.

                                          Njall Tjorkilsson
                                          Riddari, Northshield
                                        • Maria
                                          Good point. I shouldn t say every group, I should say in pretty much every area. Maria ... From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin To:
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 14, 2006
                                            Good point. I shouldn't say every group, I should say in pretty much every area.

                                            Maria
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:46 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Garb question


                                            On Tuesday 14 March 2006 13:53, Maria wrote:
                                            > That being said - you'll find fashion police in every group.

                                            Not to disagree with your basic point, but I'd have to say they're not
                                            in *every* group. Our local shire is pretty laid back. I think a lot of
                                            this varies from one geographic region to another; here in the Marche of
                                            Alderford (Canton, Ohio), as long as you meet the basic SCA rule of
                                            "an attempt at pre-1600 costume" nobody will give you a bad time.

                                            I'm not disputing your point, just saying that I don't think the problem
                                            is quite as widespread as many newcomers assume. You were spot-on in your
                                            advice about how to handle it, though. The SCA Inc. only requires "an
                                            attempt" -- anything beyond that is at the discretion of the individual.
                                            Heck, I'm a Peer of the Realm and most of my garb looks just about the
                                            same as my garb looked the day I first joined. I respect those who work
                                            hard to make really elaborate garb -- and in fact I'm learning to sew
                                            for myself, and enjoying it -- but there will never be a day when I'm
                                            willing to spend 100+ hours making one Court outfit. I respect the skill
                                            in others, but it's not my thing.

                                            The truly sincere authenticity mavens -- and here I will point to this
                                            list's own Brangwayna as a positive example -- want to *help* others be
                                            as authentic as possible, and can teach you lots of terrific ways to have
                                            very-authentic garb without spending a fortune in time or money. People
                                            like Brangwayna (and I hope she doesn't mind being used as a favorable
                                            example) have the aim of teaching, not criticism, and in many cases the
                                            reward for them is that they genuinely have *fun* helping others learn.

                                            As for those few people who make themselves feel important by belittling
                                            others -- well, they are unworthy of notice from civilized folk
                                            such as the denizens of this list -- so mostly I just ignore them. :-)
                                            Fortunately they are, as Maria pointed out, a small minority in this large
                                            organization, and there are plenty of *nice* folk to play with!

                                            As a bit of practical advice, if you should happen to encounter a garb
                                            critic, the simple statement of "I'm new, and this is my first garb" will
                                            usually cause them to remember their courtesy. Or, you will learn that they
                                            were genuinely trying to be helpful rather than judgmental, and you may meet
                                            a new friend. Sometimes well-intentioned people just don't have much skill
                                            at phrasing. :-) To paraphrase Duke Cariadoc, "Never ascribe to malice that
                                            which can be explained by error."

                                            Justin

                                            --
                                            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                            keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey


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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • rebeccaatthewell_2000
                                            Thanks everyone. It is hard reorienting yourself from ren faire thinkging to SCA thinking :) but I shall attempt it, and I won t be making my own clothing
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 15, 2006
                                              Thanks everyone. It is hard reorienting yourself from ren faire
                                              thinkging to SCA thinking :) but I shall attempt it, and I won't be
                                              making my own clothing lol, I shall have someone else make it because I
                                              am not domestically inclined :D

                                              the things that interest me are:
                                              Drawing
                                              Poetry (writing and reciting)
                                              Archery!!
                                              music (both vocal and instrumental)
                                              Bardic recitations

                                              and I have a feeling each one of them could be a full time job if I
                                              allowed to. :)

                                              Thanks for the encouragement
                                              Isabella (Rebecca)
                                            • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 3/15/2006 6:41:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 15, 2006
                                                In a message dated 3/15/2006 6:41:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                <<and women doing anything is not really period either
                                                but I am not much for following such things (me and
                                                Joan of Arc, of course she came to a bad end, soooo
                                                lol)>>

                                                Your garb question has been pretty well addressed by now (and yes, I'm the
                                                Brangwayna that Justin mentioned), so I'll leave that bit unless you would like
                                                info on accurate materials, clothing designs, and so forth.

                                                I did want to hit this second point, though. I think, as you learn more
                                                about medieval life, you'll find that the "women weren't allowed to do anything"
                                                bit is pretty much a modern misconception or even an outright myth. Pretty
                                                much throughout the SCA period, at least in the Western European cultures I'm
                                                most familiar with, women had quite a few more career avenues available than
                                                choosing between being a wife and mother or a nun.
                                                Just a few examples - smithing, bell-founding (there is an existing bell on
                                                which the maker's name, Johanna, appears), a number of careers in the textile
                                                and food industries including women who owned their own businesses and took
                                                apprentices. In the leisure areas, too, there is plenty of evidence for
                                                women hunting with both bows and hawks, and participating in active games and
                                                sports. There is even evidence for women directing troops to protect the
                                                castles where they lived while their husbands were away.


                                                Brangwayna Morgan
                                                Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                                Lancaster, PA


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Jeff Suzuki
                                                ... Besides those occupations already listed, it s worth noting that in many areas, among certain classes, women were more likely to be literate and numerate,
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 16, 2006
                                                  --- bronwynmgn@... wrote:

                                                  > I did want to hit this second point, though. I
                                                  > think, as you learn more
                                                  > about medieval life, you'll find that the "women
                                                  > weren't allowed to do anything"
                                                  > bit is pretty much a modern misconception or even an
                                                  > outright myth.

                                                  Besides those occupations already listed, it's worth
                                                  noting that in many areas, among certain classes,
                                                  women were more likely to be literate and numerate,
                                                  since keeping track of the household accounts was
                                                  "women's work."

                                                  And once you control the books...

                                                  Jeffs/etc.

                                                  Jeffs/etc.

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                                                • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                  ... In addition to what Brangwayna has said, I should also mention that in the SCA we create the *current middle ages*, not the *historical middle ages*. In
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Apr 10, 2006
                                                    On Wednesday 15 March 2006 18:39, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                                    > Pretty
                                                    > much throughout the SCA period, at least in the Western  European cultures I'm
                                                    > most familiar with, women had quite a few more career  avenues available than
                                                    > choosing between being a wife and mother or a nun.

                                                    In addition to what Brangwayna has said, I should also mention that in the SCA
                                                    we create the *current middle ages*, not the *historical middle ages*. In
                                                    short terms, that means when it comes to things like gender roles, we do "the
                                                    middle ages as we wish they had been." So I can (and do) sew and cook, and
                                                    many women can (and do) fight and make armor and so on. It's great that there
                                                    *are* historical precedents for things like this, as Brangwayna cites, but also
                                                    it's great that in the SCA you can participate in any activity you wish without
                                                    having to prove that your gender could have done so in period.

                                                    Again, not to disagree with what Brangwayna said about the historical facts,
                                                    just adding the SCA-specific spin as an extra bit of info. :-)

                                                    Justin

                                                    --
                                                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                    Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                    keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                    Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                    justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                  • Sydney Walker Freedman
                                                    There are some who are attracted to the SCA and medieval studies partially because of the traditional gender roles. (Ahem, maybe not that many...) Sorry. I
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Apr 10, 2006
                                                      There are some who are attracted to the SCA and medieval studies partially
                                                      because of the traditional gender roles. (Ahem, maybe not that many...)
                                                      Sorry. I just really enjoy sitting at my loom and singing chansons de
                                                      toile. Also, it's a good thing I don't fight; I don't need a sword. I'm
                                                      scary enough as it is with a cane. :)

                                                      Pax Christi,
                                                      Cecilia

                                                      > On Wednesday 15 March 2006 18:39, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                                      > > Pretty
                                                      > > much throughout the SCA period, at least in the Western  European
                                                      > cultures I'm
                                                      > > most familiar with, women had quite a few more career  avenues
                                                      > available than
                                                      > > choosing between being a wife and mother or a nun.
                                                      >
                                                      > In addition to what Brangwayna has said, I should also mention that in
                                                      > the SCA
                                                      > we create the *current middle ages*, not the *historical middle ages*. In
                                                      > short terms, that means when it comes to things like gender roles, we do
                                                      > "the
                                                      > middle ages as we wish they had been." So I can (and do) sew and
                                                      > cook, and
                                                      > many women can (and do) fight and make armor and so on. It's great that
                                                      > there
                                                      > *are* historical precedents for things like this, as Brangwayna cites,
                                                      > but also
                                                      > it's great that in the SCA you can participate in any activity you wish
                                                      > without
                                                      > having to prove that your gender could have done so in period.
                                                      >
                                                      > Again, not to disagree with what Brangwayna said about the historical
                                                      > facts,
                                                      > just adding the SCA-specific spin as an extra bit of info. :-)
                                                      >
                                                      > Justin
                                                      >
                                                      > --
                                                      > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                      > justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                                                      >
                                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                      > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                      >


                                                      Pax Christi,
                                                      Sydney
                                                    • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                                                      ... And that s okay, too. Just because you *can* cross traditional gender roles doesn t mean that you *must*. :-) Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Apr 10, 2006
                                                        On Monday 10 April 2006 22:49, Sydney Walker Freedman wrote:
                                                        > There are some who are attracted to the SCA and medieval studies partially
                                                        > because of the traditional gender roles.

                                                        And that's okay, too. Just because you *can* cross traditional gender roles
                                                        doesn't mean that you *must*. :-)

                                                        Justin

                                                        --
                                                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                                        Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                                        keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                                        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                                        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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