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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Names...Again

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  • Kristine Elliott
    My lady, Are you interested in an Irish name? I am guessing so, since you chose the first name Temair, which is distinctly Irish. The problem with both Temair
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 8 2:24 PM
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      My lady,

      Are you interested in an Irish name? I am guessing so, since you chose
      the first name Temair, which is distinctly Irish. The problem with
      both "Temair Four Cat Creek" and "Temair Four Cat" is that neither are
      anything close to a standard Irish Gaelic name in form. Information on
      what period Gaelic names look like can be found here:
      http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ (Yes, it
      says Scottish, but Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are closely
      related and they put their names together the same way.)

      For information on the name Temair, including how to pronounce it in
      period fashion, please check out:
      http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2177+0 and
      http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1380+0 .

      If you need help creating an Irish name, I will do my best to help
      you, but it is not a language I am comfortable in -- I will probably
      have to pass all but the most basic questions onto Sharon Krossa,
      myself. She actively comments on the SCAHeralds list.

      As a general note, http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ is an excellent
      place to look for a name.

      Let me know if I can help you any more.

      Thanks,

      Cateline


      On 8/8/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
      > Names seem to be a major topic of late, & I wanted to run this by
      > everyone on the List...
      >
      > Temair of Four Cat Creek Is that to Long a Location to use? Or should
      > I just be Temair Four Cats?
      >
      > I am Hoping Temair will be easy enough for me to remember thats who I
      > am *l*
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Tia
      http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-obrien.html that should work better....
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 9 6:29 AM
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      • Hedwig
        Oh OK in that case have you dug around at Saint Gabe s? http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/irish.shtml This is a great place to start...and the heralds generally
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 9 6:53 AM
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          Oh OK in that case have you dug around at Saint Gabe's?
          http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/irish.shtml
          This is a great place to start...and the heralds generally love names from
          here (especially if you include the article you found your name in or based
          your name construction on...)
          In Service,
          Hedwig

          On 8/9/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-obrien.html
          > that should work better....
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tia
          Thank you
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 9 7:39 AM
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            Thank you
          • Tia
            Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under the Vanishingly rare section it
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 16 10:47 AM
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              Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un
              heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
              the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative Bynames.....Rare yes
              But Not unheard of.
              Thank you for your help & Information :-)
            • Kristine Elliott
              There is a difference between saying locative names are rare but period in Ireland and saying Temair Four Cat Creek is period. The next step is to figure
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 16 12:08 PM
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                There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period." The
                next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and see
                if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that pattern
                -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)

                Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever you
                want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register it
                under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for authenticity.
                Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period as
                they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier with
                it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.

                Cateline




                On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un
                > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative Bynames.....Rare yes
                > But Not unheard of.
                > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
                >
                >
                > Medieval costume
                > Medieval knights
                >
                > ________________________________
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
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                --
                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at
                least teach 'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
              • Tia
                Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me to translate Of Four Cat Creek into Gaelic? If I am reading these right..... According to
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 16 12:59 PM
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                  Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me
                  to translate "Of Four Cat Creek" into Gaelic?

                  If I am reading these right..... According to The SCA Heraldry Page
                  Submission Guidelines http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#2.2
                  Part 2 Compatible Name Content section 2 & 3, And Part 3 Styling &
                  Grammer section 2 name style #3 I would Think it "should" *l* be
                  acceptable the way it is....

                  I do Know that not everyone interprets things the same way I do & I
                  could be Missing a Nuance they are going for.

                  Again Thank you for your Help & Information.

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                  <souriete@g...> wrote:
                  > There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                  > period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period."
                  The
                  > next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and
                  see
                  > if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that
                  pattern
                  > -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                  > (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                  > locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)
                  >
                  > Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever
                  you
                  > want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register
                  it
                  > under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for
                  authenticity.
                  > Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                  > mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                  > choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period
                  as
                  > they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier
                  with
                  > it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.
                  >
                  > Cateline
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@y...> wrote:
                  > > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not
                  quite as un
                  > > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                  > > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative
                  Bynames.....Rare yes
                  > > But Not unheard of.
                  > > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Medieval costume
                  > > Medieval knights
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
                  >
                  > If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at
                  > least teach 'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
                • Kristine Elliott
                  You re doing excellently -- looking up sources, looking at the Rules for Submissions. (I m not kidding here -- on our kingdom heralds list people are always
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 16 2:01 PM
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                    You're doing excellently -- looking up sources, looking at the Rules
                    for Submissions. (I'm not kidding here -- on our kingdom heralds list
                    people are always asking questions that could be answered by looking
                    at the RfS, so someone working their name and looking at the RfS is
                    just heavenly!)

                    We need to look at Rules for Submission II.3.:

                    "3. Invented Names. - New name elements, whether invented by the
                    submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if they
                    follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic tradition
                    compatible with the domain of the Society and the name elements used.

                    "Name elements may be created following patterns demonstrated to have
                    been followed in period naming. Old English given names, for instance,
                    are frequently composed of two syllables from a specific pool of name
                    elements. The given name Ælfmund could be created using syllables from
                    the documented names Ælfgar and Eadmund following the pattern
                    established by similar names in Old English. Other kinds of patterns
                    can also be found in period naming, such as patterns of meaning,
                    description, or sound. Such patterns, if sufficiently defined, may
                    also be used to invent new name elements. There is a pattern of using
                    kinds of animals in the English place names Oxford, Swinford and
                    Hartford, and so a case could be made for inventing a similar name
                    like Sheepford. No name will be disqualified based solely on its
                    source."

                    So, yes, this probably does mean translating it into Irish for
                    registration, or at the very least, seeing whether, if it were
                    translated into Irish, it would make a reasonable Irish place name.
                    What we are looking for here, is both the existance of the type of
                    element (in the above example: Ox, Swin(e) and Hart are all animals,
                    as is Sheep) and the combination of that type of element in a period
                    format -- as is shown in the creation of Sheepford. I'm sorry, I did
                    warn you were were getting into heavy linguistics here!

                    Looking at the pattern of "Three Cat Creek" we have the pattern of
                    "Number"+"Animal (feline)"+ "Body of water". So what you or someone
                    needs to do is look at a book of Irish placenames and see if there are
                    any Irish place names with that combination of elements (number,
                    animal, body of water or topographic term) exists; in this case, since
                    Irish Gaelic is a different language, I'd be looking for the 3
                    elements in any order -- off the top of my head I don't know what
                    natural grammatical order they would fall in). I can do that for you.
                    I have at least two books on Irish place names. It will take me a few
                    days, perhaps more than a week to do, but I would be glad to do (for
                    one thing, I'm curious, and for another, I'd like to help you.) Some
                    examples, which I will be paying particular attention to, of locative
                    bynames appearing in a late Irish document can be found at
                    http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/ormond-glossary.html#Glossary
                    and http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/fitzwilliam.html
                    .

                    This email is getting HORRIBLY long, so I am going to break off here
                    and email you about what I think some of the issues are going to be
                    of registering "Temair Three Cat Creek" as is off list, before I bore
                    everyone but you and I to death!

                    Cateline




                    On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                    > Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me
                    > to translate "Of Four Cat Creek" into Gaelic?
                    >
                    > If I am reading these right..... According to The SCA Heraldry Page
                    > Submission Guidelines
                    > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#2.2
                    > Part 2 Compatible Name Content section 2 & 3, And Part 3 Styling &
                    > Grammer section 2 name style #3 I would Think it "should" *l* be
                    > acceptable the way it is....
                    >
                    > I do Know that not everyone interprets things the same way I do & I
                    > could be Missing a Nuance they are going for.
                    >
                    > Again Thank you for your Help & Information.
                    >
                    > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                    >
                    > <souriete@g...> wrote:
                    > > There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                    > > period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period."
                    > The
                    > > next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and
                    > see
                    > > if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that
                    > pattern
                    > > -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                    > > (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                    > > locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)
                    > >
                    > > Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever
                    > you
                    > > want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register
                    > it
                    > > under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for
                    > authenticity.
                    > > Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                    > > mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                    > > choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period
                    > as
                    > > they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier
                    > with
                    > > it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.
                    > >
                    > > Cateline
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not
                    > quite as un
                    > > > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                    > > > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative
                    > Bynames.....Rare yes
                    > > > But Not unheard of.
                    > > > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                    > > >
                  • Tia
                    Cateline, Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water.... Maybe I ll Just go with
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 17 8:26 AM
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                      Cateline,
                      Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that
                      shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water....

                      Maybe I'll Just go with Temair of the creek (Temair Ingen Geo'dh) it
                      might be easier *l*

                      English to Galic Dictionary Link....
                      http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MF2/index.html ... hope I picked the
                      right definitions....

                      OK now "IF" I can prove it would work...my name would look like this
                      In Gaelic... Temair Ingen Cethircattgeo'dh ..... Wow what a mouth Full!

                      I never would have thought Researching a name could get so complex. I
                      am Glad there are Heralds that can help me, As well as Folks who just
                      have an intrest in it!

                      Again Thank you, Sorry if I was being a Dunce.....back to the research.

                      Temair
                    • Kristine Elliott
                      Temair, ingen means daughter of not just of . If you like, I can email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic Temair of the Creek and whether they
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 17 10:28 AM
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                        Temair, "ingen" means "daughter of" not just "of". If you like, I can
                        email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic "Temair of the Creek"
                        and whether they would consider it to be a reasonable byname in
                        Gaelic. (I don't know a lot of Gaelic myself, but I do know who to
                        ask!) You can join SCA Heralds yourself and ask, too; it isn't a
                        closed list but it is sometimes very busy.

                        The problem with finding the correct words for your elements in Gaelic
                        is ... it might not be that simple. If you look at "Quick and Easy
                        Gaelic Names" in the St. Gabriel's Medieval Name Archive (
                        http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ ), you
                        will notice that even in the simple patronymics, the father's name
                        (after "mac" or "ingen" or "inghean") changes spelling, sometimes
                        substantially. I don't KNOW the same thing will happen in a
                        constructed Irish place-name, but I don't know for sure that it won't,
                        either. In fact, when I consult people with Gaelic names, I do my best
                        and then tell them to "Allow changes" on their form, because I am no
                        expert in Gaelic, and if they don't allow changes and I made the
                        tiniest error, the name will be returned for more work, which is
                        always a bummer.

                        In English place names there several places which are essentially
                        number+tree, like Sevenoaks, which appears as Sevenac in 1200. A few
                        other elements that appear after a number are –hampton , which is a
                        farmstead, -stone which means what it looks like, and –hide, which is
                        a unit of measure for land. There may be more; those are what I saw on
                        a quick run-through of Victor Watt's _The Cambridge Dictionary of
                        English Place-Names_. I didn't look at every number (I think I look at
                        five and seven, to be honest, and relied a bit on my memory).

                        I hope this helps a little. Please feel free to ask me more questions
                        on your name, on or off list. I would be glad to help you, or anyone
                        else, to work on their name.

                        Cateline

                        PS: You're not a dunce! We just misunderstood each other.


                        On 8/17/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                        > Cateline,
                        > Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that
                        > shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water....
                        >
                        > Maybe I'll Just go with Temair of the creek (Temair Ingen Geo'dh) it
                        > might be easier *l*
                        >
                        > English to Galic Dictionary Link....
                        > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MF2/index.html ... hope I
                        > picked the
                        > right definitions....
                        >
                        > OK now "IF" I can prove it would work...my name would look like this
                        > In Gaelic... Temair Ingen Cethircattgeo'dh ..... Wow what a mouth Full!
                        >
                        > I never would have thought Researching a name could get so complex. I
                        > am Glad there are Heralds that can help me, As well as Folks who just
                        > have an intrest in it!
                        >
                        > Again Thank you, Sorry if I was being a Dunce.....back to the research.
                        >
                        > Temair
                        >

                        --
                        http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                        If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at
                        least teach 'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
                      • Tia
                        roflol Oh Boy, stuck my foot in that one.....I knew i should have rechecked that refrence.... Back to the drawing Board.......Cateline Dont worry I am one of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 17 10:50 AM
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                          roflol Oh Boy, stuck my foot in that one.....I knew i should have
                          rechecked that refrence....
                          Back to the drawing Board.......Cateline Dont worry I am one of
                          these Bull headed people who likes to do things on there own & gets
                          carried away when they think they have "GOT IT"



                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                          <souriete@g...> wrote:
                          > Temair, "ingen" means "daughter of" not just "of". If you like, I
                          can
                          > email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic "Temair of the
                          Creek"
                          > and whether they would consider it to be a reasonable byname in
                          > Gaelic. (I don't know a lot of Gaelic myself, but I do know who to
                          > ask!) You can join SCA Heralds yourself and ask, too; it isn't a
                          > closed list but it is sometimes very busy.
                          >
                          > The problem with finding the correct words for your elements in
                          Gaelic
                          > is ... it might not be that simple. If you look at "Quick and Easy
                          > Gaelic Names" in the St. Gabriel's Medieval Name Archive (
                          > http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ ),
                          you
                          > will notice that even in the simple patronymics, the father's name
                          > (after "mac" or "ingen" or "inghean") changes spelling, sometimes
                          > substantially. I don't KNOW the same thing will happen in a
                          > constructed Irish place-name, but I don't know for sure that it
                          won't,
                          > either. In fact, when I consult people with Gaelic names, I do my
                          best
                          > and then tell them to "Allow changes" on their form, because I am
                          no
                          > expert in Gaelic, and if they don't allow changes and I made the
                          > tiniest error, the name will be returned for more work, which is
                          > always a bummer.
                          >
                          > In English place names there several places which are essentially
                          > number+tree, like Sevenoaks, which appears as Sevenac in 1200. A
                          few
                          > other elements that appear after a number are –hampton , which is a
                          > farmstead, -stone which means what it looks like, and –hide, which
                          is
                          > a unit of measure for land. There may be more; those are what I
                          saw on
                          > a quick run-through of Victor Watt's _The Cambridge Dictionary of
                          > English Place-Names_. I didn't look at every number (I think I
                          look at
                          > five and seven, to be honest, and relied a bit on my memory).
                          >
                          > I hope this helps a little. Please feel free to ask me more
                          questions
                          > on your name, on or off list. I would be glad to help you, or
                          anyone
                          > else, to work on their name.
                          >
                          > Cateline
                          >
                          > PS: You're not a dunce! We just misunderstood each other.
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