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Names...Again

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  • Tia
    Names seem to be a major topic of late, & I wanted to run this by everyone on the List... Temair of Four Cat Creek Is that to Long a Location to use? Or should
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 8, 2005
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      Names seem to be a major topic of late, & I wanted to run this by
      everyone on the List...

      Temair of Four Cat Creek Is that to Long a Location to use? Or should
      I just be Temair Four Cats?

      I am Hoping Temair will be easy enough for me to remember thats who I
      am *l*
    • vanessa gonzales
      Hi, I don t know which one s better but it seems to me that they have two different implications; one that you live by the creek and the other that you have
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 8, 2005
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        Hi, I don't know which one's better but it seems to me that they have two different implications; one that you live by the creek and the other that you have four cats. Anyhow, I like the way Four Cat Creek sounds, it has a nice ring to it. Good luck!

        Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:Names seem to be a major topic of late, & I wanted to run this by
        everyone on the List...

        Temair of Four Cat Creek Is that to Long a Location to use? Or should
        I just be Temair Four Cats?

        I am Hoping Temair will be easy enough for me to remember thats who I
        am *l*




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      • Hedwig
        May I ask where you found your name? I haven t found it in any of my heraldry resources...but then that doesn t mean anything really...just that it isn t in
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 8, 2005
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          May I ask where you found your name? I haven't found it in any of my
          heraldry resources...but then that doesn't mean anything really...just that
          it isn't in any of my books and references. If you can give some more
          background information on your name some of us may be able to help you a bit
          better...
          In Service,
          Hedwig


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kristine Elliott
          My lady, Are you interested in an Irish name? I am guessing so, since you chose the first name Temair, which is distinctly Irish. The problem with both Temair
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 8, 2005
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            My lady,

            Are you interested in an Irish name? I am guessing so, since you chose
            the first name Temair, which is distinctly Irish. The problem with
            both "Temair Four Cat Creek" and "Temair Four Cat" is that neither are
            anything close to a standard Irish Gaelic name in form. Information on
            what period Gaelic names look like can be found here:
            http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ (Yes, it
            says Scottish, but Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are closely
            related and they put their names together the same way.)

            For information on the name Temair, including how to pronounce it in
            period fashion, please check out:
            http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2177+0 and
            http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1380+0 .

            If you need help creating an Irish name, I will do my best to help
            you, but it is not a language I am comfortable in -- I will probably
            have to pass all but the most basic questions onto Sharon Krossa,
            myself. She actively comments on the SCAHeralds list.

            As a general note, http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ is an excellent
            place to look for a name.

            Let me know if I can help you any more.

            Thanks,

            Cateline


            On 8/8/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
            > Names seem to be a major topic of late, & I wanted to run this by
            > everyone on the List...
            >
            > Temair of Four Cat Creek Is that to Long a Location to use? Or should
            > I just be Temair Four Cats?
            >
            > I am Hoping Temair will be easy enough for me to remember thats who I
            > am *l*
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tia
            Temair Is Irish I found it on......rooting....OBriens Corpus Genologium Hiberniae Heraldry Page....it was a link somewhere on the SCA homepage I think....
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 9, 2005
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              Temair Is Irish I found it on......rooting....OBriens Corpus
              Genologium Hiberniae Heraldry Page....it was a link somewhere on the
              SCA homepage I think.... http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-
              obrien.html there it is

              The creek & Four cats Is yes I live by a creek & I do have 4 cats ;-)
              According to O'Brien's Irish names were set up 2 ways
              For women anyhow...your first name (Ingen= Daughter of) & then your
              fathers name
              Temair Ingen Duff....supposedly the Ingen replaces the Mac In MacDuff

              Then there is the approach (wich I was taking) first Name then A
              location or specific Marker/ atribute..... Hence Temair Four Cats etc.

              I do not doubt if I turned my name into the Heralds It would be shot
              down. But that is the Wonder of SCA you dont have to be Perfect to
              Play.
            • Tia
              http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-obrien.html that should work better....
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 9, 2005
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              • Hedwig
                Oh OK in that case have you dug around at Saint Gabe s? http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/irish.shtml This is a great place to start...and the heralds generally
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 9, 2005
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                  Oh OK in that case have you dug around at Saint Gabe's?
                  http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/irish.shtml
                  This is a great place to start...and the heralds generally love names from
                  here (especially if you include the article you found your name in or based
                  your name construction on...)
                  In Service,
                  Hedwig

                  On 8/9/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-obrien.html
                  > that should work better....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Tia
                  Thank you
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 9, 2005
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                    Thank you
                  • Tia
                    Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under the Vanishingly rare section it
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 16, 2005
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                      Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un
                      heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                      the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative Bynames.....Rare yes
                      But Not unheard of.
                      Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                    • Kristine Elliott
                      There is a difference between saying locative names are rare but period in Ireland and saying Temair Four Cat Creek is period. The next step is to figure
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 16, 2005
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                        There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                        period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period." The
                        next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and see
                        if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that pattern
                        -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                        (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                        locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)

                        Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever you
                        want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register it
                        under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for authenticity.
                        Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                        mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                        choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period as
                        they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier with
                        it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.

                        Cateline




                        On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                        > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not quite as un
                        > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                        > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative Bynames.....Rare yes
                        > But Not unheard of.
                        > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Tia
                        Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me to translate Of Four Cat Creek into Gaelic? If I am reading these right..... According to
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 16, 2005
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                          Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me
                          to translate "Of Four Cat Creek" into Gaelic?

                          If I am reading these right..... According to The SCA Heraldry Page
                          Submission Guidelines http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#2.2
                          Part 2 Compatible Name Content section 2 & 3, And Part 3 Styling &
                          Grammer section 2 name style #3 I would Think it "should" *l* be
                          acceptable the way it is....

                          I do Know that not everyone interprets things the same way I do & I
                          could be Missing a Nuance they are going for.

                          Again Thank you for your Help & Information.

                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                          <souriete@g...> wrote:
                          > There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                          > period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period."
                          The
                          > next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and
                          see
                          > if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that
                          pattern
                          > -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                          > (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                          > locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)
                          >
                          > Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever
                          you
                          > want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register
                          it
                          > under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for
                          authenticity.
                          > Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                          > mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                          > choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period
                          as
                          > they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier
                          with
                          > it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.
                          >
                          > Cateline
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@y...> wrote:
                          > > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not
                          quite as un
                          > > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                          > > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative
                          Bynames.....Rare yes
                          > > But Not unheard of.
                          > > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > SPONSORED LINKS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Medieval costume
                          > > Medieval knights
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > http://www.geocities.com/souriete/
                          >
                          > If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at
                          > least teach 'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
                        • Kristine Elliott
                          You re doing excellently -- looking up sources, looking at the Rules for Submissions. (I m not kidding here -- on our kingdom heralds list people are always
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 16, 2005
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                            You're doing excellently -- looking up sources, looking at the Rules
                            for Submissions. (I'm not kidding here -- on our kingdom heralds list
                            people are always asking questions that could be answered by looking
                            at the RfS, so someone working their name and looking at the RfS is
                            just heavenly!)

                            We need to look at Rules for Submission II.3.:

                            "3. Invented Names. - New name elements, whether invented by the
                            submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if they
                            follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic tradition
                            compatible with the domain of the Society and the name elements used.

                            "Name elements may be created following patterns demonstrated to have
                            been followed in period naming. Old English given names, for instance,
                            are frequently composed of two syllables from a specific pool of name
                            elements. The given name Ælfmund could be created using syllables from
                            the documented names Ælfgar and Eadmund following the pattern
                            established by similar names in Old English. Other kinds of patterns
                            can also be found in period naming, such as patterns of meaning,
                            description, or sound. Such patterns, if sufficiently defined, may
                            also be used to invent new name elements. There is a pattern of using
                            kinds of animals in the English place names Oxford, Swinford and
                            Hartford, and so a case could be made for inventing a similar name
                            like Sheepford. No name will be disqualified based solely on its
                            source."

                            So, yes, this probably does mean translating it into Irish for
                            registration, or at the very least, seeing whether, if it were
                            translated into Irish, it would make a reasonable Irish place name.
                            What we are looking for here, is both the existance of the type of
                            element (in the above example: Ox, Swin(e) and Hart are all animals,
                            as is Sheep) and the combination of that type of element in a period
                            format -- as is shown in the creation of Sheepford. I'm sorry, I did
                            warn you were were getting into heavy linguistics here!

                            Looking at the pattern of "Three Cat Creek" we have the pattern of
                            "Number"+"Animal (feline)"+ "Body of water". So what you or someone
                            needs to do is look at a book of Irish placenames and see if there are
                            any Irish place names with that combination of elements (number,
                            animal, body of water or topographic term) exists; in this case, since
                            Irish Gaelic is a different language, I'd be looking for the 3
                            elements in any order -- off the top of my head I don't know what
                            natural grammatical order they would fall in). I can do that for you.
                            I have at least two books on Irish place names. It will take me a few
                            days, perhaps more than a week to do, but I would be glad to do (for
                            one thing, I'm curious, and for another, I'd like to help you.) Some
                            examples, which I will be paying particular attention to, of locative
                            bynames appearing in a late Irish document can be found at
                            http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/ormond-glossary.html#Glossary
                            and http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/fitzwilliam.html
                            .

                            This email is getting HORRIBLY long, so I am going to break off here
                            and email you about what I think some of the issues are going to be
                            of registering "Temair Three Cat Creek" as is off list, before I bore
                            everyone but you and I to death!

                            Cateline




                            On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                            > Perhaps I am not quite understanding what you mean..do you want me
                            > to translate "Of Four Cat Creek" into Gaelic?
                            >
                            > If I am reading these right..... According to The SCA Heraldry Page
                            > Submission Guidelines
                            > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#2.2
                            > Part 2 Compatible Name Content section 2 & 3, And Part 3 Styling &
                            > Grammer section 2 name style #3 I would Think it "should" *l* be
                            > acceptable the way it is....
                            >
                            > I do Know that not everyone interprets things the same way I do & I
                            > could be Missing a Nuance they are going for.
                            >
                            > Again Thank you for your Help & Information.
                            >
                            > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                            >
                            > <souriete@g...> wrote:
                            > > There is a difference between saying "locative names are rare but
                            > > period in Ireland" and saying "Temair Four Cat Creek is period."
                            > The
                            > > next step is to figure out what Irish locative names look like and
                            > see
                            > > if Four Cat Creek fits that pattern or can be made to fit that
                            > pattern
                            > > -- we're talking about entering heavy linguistics territory here.
                            > > (Certainly, beyond me -- I could help a person with an English
                            > > locative, but I am no expert in Irish Gaelic.)
                            > >
                            > > Of course, as you mentioned before, you can call yourself whatever
                            > you
                            > > want. If you chose to register a device, you will have to register
                            > it
                            > > under a name that meets the CoA's minimum standards for
                            > authenticity.
                            > > Frankly, with what you have now (and the documentation you have
                            > > mentioned on the list), I doubt your name is registerable. Your
                            > > choice, of course. I always recommend that my clients go as period
                            > as
                            > > they can stand with their name -- I believe they will be happier
                            > with
                            > > it in the long run, and I like people to be happy.
                            > >
                            > > Cateline
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On 8/16/05, Tia <teedle77@y...> wrote:
                            > > > Temair Of Four Cat Creek is a do-able name choice and not
                            > quite as un
                            > > > heard of as you think, if you check Gabriels page under
                            > > > the "Vanishingly rare section" it notes Locative
                            > Bynames.....Rare yes
                            > > > But Not unheard of.
                            > > > Thank you for your help & Information :-)
                            > > >
                          • Tia
                            Cateline, Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water.... Maybe I ll Just go with
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 17, 2005
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                              Cateline,
                              Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that
                              shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water....

                              Maybe I'll Just go with Temair of the creek (Temair Ingen Geo'dh) it
                              might be easier *l*

                              English to Galic Dictionary Link....
                              http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MF2/index.html ... hope I picked the
                              right definitions....

                              OK now "IF" I can prove it would work...my name would look like this
                              In Gaelic... Temair Ingen Cethircattgeo'dh ..... Wow what a mouth Full!

                              I never would have thought Researching a name could get so complex. I
                              am Glad there are Heralds that can help me, As well as Folks who just
                              have an intrest in it!

                              Again Thank you, Sorry if I was being a Dunce.....back to the research.

                              Temair
                            • Kristine Elliott
                              Temair, ingen means daughter of not just of . If you like, I can email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic Temair of the Creek and whether they
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                Temair, "ingen" means "daughter of" not just "of". If you like, I can
                                email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic "Temair of the Creek"
                                and whether they would consider it to be a reasonable byname in
                                Gaelic. (I don't know a lot of Gaelic myself, but I do know who to
                                ask!) You can join SCA Heralds yourself and ask, too; it isn't a
                                closed list but it is sometimes very busy.

                                The problem with finding the correct words for your elements in Gaelic
                                is ... it might not be that simple. If you look at "Quick and Easy
                                Gaelic Names" in the St. Gabriel's Medieval Name Archive (
                                http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ ), you
                                will notice that even in the simple patronymics, the father's name
                                (after "mac" or "ingen" or "inghean") changes spelling, sometimes
                                substantially. I don't KNOW the same thing will happen in a
                                constructed Irish place-name, but I don't know for sure that it won't,
                                either. In fact, when I consult people with Gaelic names, I do my best
                                and then tell them to "Allow changes" on their form, because I am no
                                expert in Gaelic, and if they don't allow changes and I made the
                                tiniest error, the name will be returned for more work, which is
                                always a bummer.

                                In English place names there several places which are essentially
                                number+tree, like Sevenoaks, which appears as Sevenac in 1200. A few
                                other elements that appear after a number are –hampton , which is a
                                farmstead, -stone which means what it looks like, and –hide, which is
                                a unit of measure for land. There may be more; those are what I saw on
                                a quick run-through of Victor Watt's _The Cambridge Dictionary of
                                English Place-Names_. I didn't look at every number (I think I look at
                                five and seven, to be honest, and relied a bit on my memory).

                                I hope this helps a little. Please feel free to ask me more questions
                                on your name, on or off list. I would be glad to help you, or anyone
                                else, to work on their name.

                                Cateline

                                PS: You're not a dunce! We just misunderstood each other.


                                On 8/17/05, Tia <teedle77@...> wrote:
                                > Cateline,
                                > Thank you! Now I get it!......OK Now I just have to find a source that
                                > shows the pattern of Number+animal+body of water....
                                >
                                > Maybe I'll Just go with Temair of the creek (Temair Ingen Geo'dh) it
                                > might be easier *l*
                                >
                                > English to Galic Dictionary Link....
                                > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MF2/index.html ... hope I
                                > picked the
                                > right definitions....
                                >
                                > OK now "IF" I can prove it would work...my name would look like this
                                > In Gaelic... Temair Ingen Cethircattgeo'dh ..... Wow what a mouth Full!
                                >
                                > I never would have thought Researching a name could get so complex. I
                                > am Glad there are Heralds that can help me, As well as Folks who just
                                > have an intrest in it!
                                >
                                > Again Thank you, Sorry if I was being a Dunce.....back to the research.
                                >
                                > Temair
                                >

                                --
                                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                                If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at
                                least teach 'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
                              • Tia
                                roflol Oh Boy, stuck my foot in that one.....I knew i should have rechecked that refrence.... Back to the drawing Board.......Cateline Dont worry I am one of
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                  roflol Oh Boy, stuck my foot in that one.....I knew i should have
                                  rechecked that refrence....
                                  Back to the drawing Board.......Cateline Dont worry I am one of
                                  these Bull headed people who likes to do things on there own & gets
                                  carried away when they think they have "GOT IT"



                                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott
                                  <souriete@g...> wrote:
                                  > Temair, "ingen" means "daughter of" not just "of". If you like, I
                                  can
                                  > email SCA Heralds and ask how to put in Gaelic "Temair of the
                                  Creek"
                                  > and whether they would consider it to be a reasonable byname in
                                  > Gaelic. (I don't know a lot of Gaelic myself, but I do know who to
                                  > ask!) You can join SCA Heralds yourself and ask, too; it isn't a
                                  > closed list but it is sometimes very busy.
                                  >
                                  > The problem with finding the correct words for your elements in
                                  Gaelic
                                  > is ... it might not be that simple. If you look at "Quick and Easy
                                  > Gaelic Names" in the St. Gabriel's Medieval Name Archive (
                                  > http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/ ),
                                  you
                                  > will notice that even in the simple patronymics, the father's name
                                  > (after "mac" or "ingen" or "inghean") changes spelling, sometimes
                                  > substantially. I don't KNOW the same thing will happen in a
                                  > constructed Irish place-name, but I don't know for sure that it
                                  won't,
                                  > either. In fact, when I consult people with Gaelic names, I do my
                                  best
                                  > and then tell them to "Allow changes" on their form, because I am
                                  no
                                  > expert in Gaelic, and if they don't allow changes and I made the
                                  > tiniest error, the name will be returned for more work, which is
                                  > always a bummer.
                                  >
                                  > In English place names there several places which are essentially
                                  > number+tree, like Sevenoaks, which appears as Sevenac in 1200. A
                                  few
                                  > other elements that appear after a number are –hampton , which is a
                                  > farmstead, -stone which means what it looks like, and –hide, which
                                  is
                                  > a unit of measure for land. There may be more; those are what I
                                  saw on
                                  > a quick run-through of Victor Watt's _The Cambridge Dictionary of
                                  > English Place-Names_. I didn't look at every number (I think I
                                  look at
                                  > five and seven, to be honest, and relied a bit on my memory).
                                  >
                                  > I hope this helps a little. Please feel free to ask me more
                                  questions
                                  > on your name, on or off list. I would be glad to help you, or
                                  anyone
                                  > else, to work on their name.
                                  >
                                  > Cateline
                                  >
                                  > PS: You're not a dunce! We just misunderstood each other.
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