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name again

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  • Steven & Gretchen Hulett
    ok what do you all think of this name? Oona le Baker de Summersette Gretchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
      ok what do you all think of this name?

      Oona le Baker de Summersette

      Gretchen


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bulgarelli Maria
      Period people didn t have middle names. The only exception to this was if there were more than one person with the same name and they did different things for
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
        Period people didn't have middle names. The only
        exception to this was if there were more than one
        person with the same name and they did different
        things for a living. Like let's say there are 3
        different men named Colin Buchanan; one is a baker,
        one is a miller and one is a potter. They would then
        be called Colin Buchanan Baker, Colin Buchanan Miller
        and Colin Buchanan Potter. That's the usual exception
        to the problem. Usually the only way someone ended up
        with a middle name. The Heralds usually don't pass
        middle names (around here at least) unless you can
        show a REALLY good reason for it.

        Maria

        --- Steven & Gretchen Hulett <sghulett@...>
        wrote:


        ---------------------------------
        ok what do you all think of this name?

        Oona le Baker de Summersette

        Gretchen


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
        As with all blanket statements, this one comes with exceptions. It s not unknown for the use of middle names, even in period. It would have to be judged on a
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
          As with all blanket statements, this one comes with exceptions.

          It's not unknown for the use of middle names, even in period.

          It would have to be judged on a case by case basis, and of course the burden of proving that a middle name would be used in the submitter's case restes entirely with the submitter.

          Capt Elias
          Dragonship Haven, East
          (Stratford, CT, USA)

          -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

          - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of Dilletanteism!
          There are SO damn many more things I want to try in the SCA
          than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

          -------------------------------------------------------------
          Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
          Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
          To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
          Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
          Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
          Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
          You stand upon the ravage and behold
          A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
          For so appears this fleet majestical,
          Holding due course to Harfleur.
          - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...>
          Date: Friday, July 29, 2005 1:38 pm
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] name again

          > Period people didn't have middle names. The only
          > exception to this was if there were more than one
          > person with the same name and they did different
          > things for a living. Like let's say there are 3
          > different men named Colin Buchanan; one is a baker,
          > one is a miller and one is a potter. They would then
          > be called Colin Buchanan Baker, Colin Buchanan Miller
          > and Colin Buchanan Potter. That's the usual exception
          > to the problem. Usually the only way someone ended up
          > with a middle name. The Heralds usually don't pass
          > middle names (around here at least) unless you can
          > show a REALLY good reason for it.
          >
          > Maria
          >
          > --- Steven & Gretchen Hulett <sghulett@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > ok what do you all think of this name?
          >
          > Oona le Baker de Summersette
          >
          > Gretchen
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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          >
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        • Bulgarelli Maria
          Sorry, but a herald just told me wednesday night what I said. That s why I could say it with such authority. And I did say that it was possible under certain
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
            Sorry, but a herald just told me wednesday night what
            I said. That's why I could say it with such
            authority. And I did say that it was possible under
            certain circumstances. I gave only one of those.



            In Service To The Dream,
            Lady Elizabetta de Medici
            Maria Buchanan
            Official Worrier of House Starfire
            Hospitaler - Shire of Gate's Edge
            Hospitaler - Barony of the Stargate
            In the Stellar Kingdom of Ansteorra
            281-433-0347
          • Bulgarelli Maria
            Also, I do remember saying specifically that here in Ansteorra it wouldn t happen. Maria ... As with all blanket statements, this one comes with exceptions.
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
              Also, I do remember saying specifically that here in
              Ansteorra it wouldn't happen.

              Maria

              --- gedney@... wrote:


              ---------------------------------
              As with all blanket statements, this one comes with
              exceptions.

              It's not unknown for the use of middle names, even in
              period.

              It would have to be judged on a case by case basis,
              and of course the burden of proving that a middle name
              would be used in the submitter's case restes entirely
              with the submitter.

              Capt Elias
              Dragonship Haven, East
              (Stratford, CT, USA)

              -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

              - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of
              Dilletanteism!
              There are SO damn many more things I want to try in
              the SCA
              than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

              -------------------------------------------------------------
              Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
              Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
              To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
              Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
              Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
              Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
              You stand upon the ravage and behold
              A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
              For so appears this fleet majestical,
              Holding due course to Harfleur.
              - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue





              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...>
              Date: Friday, July 29, 2005 1:38 pm
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] name again

              > Period people didn't have middle names. The only
              > exception to this was if there were more than one
              > person with the same name and they did different
              > things for a living. Like let's say there are 3
              > different men named Colin Buchanan; one is a baker,
              > one is a miller and one is a potter. They would
              then
              > be called Colin Buchanan Baker, Colin Buchanan
              Miller
              > and Colin Buchanan Potter. That's the usual
              exception
              > to the problem. Usually the only way someone ended
              up
              > with a middle name. The Heralds usually don't pass
              > middle names (around here at least) unless you can
              > show a REALLY good reason for it.
              >
              > Maria
              >
              > --- Steven & Gretchen Hulett <sghulett@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > ok what do you all think of this name?
              >
              > Oona le Baker de Summersette
              >
              > Gretchen
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "scanewcomers" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              Yahoo!
              > Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              --------------------
              > ~-->
              > <font face=arial size=-
              >
              1>http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12hrvk1hp/M=362335.6886444.7839734.2575449/D=groups/S=1705126283:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122665901/A=2894362/R=0/SIG=138c78jl6/*http://www.networkforgood.org/topics/arts_culture/?source=YAHOO&cmpgn=GRP&RTP=http://groups.yahoo.com/">What
              would our lives be like without music, dance, and
              theater?Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
              Network for Good.</font>
              >
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
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              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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              >
              >
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              >


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              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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              ---------------------------------
            • Alison Choyce
              From: Bulgarelli Maria Period people didn t have middle names. The only exception to this was if there were more than one person with the same name ........
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
                From: Bulgarelli Maria
                Period people didn't have middle names. The only
                exception to this was if there were more than one
                person with the same name ........ The Heralds usually don't pass
                middle names (around here at least) unless you can
                show a REALLY good reason for it.

                Maria

                Maria,
                Thank you for answering Capt Elias, and explaining where your information came from. I am citing below, for the benefit of everyone on the list, the response of a friend of mine. She has been researching names for over 20 years, and is respected as a name researcher across the Heraldic community. Her area of greatest knowledge is England of this era.

                My Question to her was, "is three elements reasonable in a 12-13th century English name," and I included the name in the question. In her answer she makes reference to the Knowne World Heraldic Symposium ("last year's symposium proceedings")

                Quoth Dame Cateline la souriete de la Mor:
                The short answer is, the name is fine and period if she has
                documented the elements. I have attached as documentation for you my
                article from last year's symposium proceedings (which I know you
                have!)

                Off the top of my head, I'd guess that the bynames are fine though
                they might require a few minor spelling changes to more documentable
                forms, but the given name looks Irish. Of course that is probably OK:
                it might be a weirdness -- the spelling certainly is as it falls
                somewhere in between the Irish Gaelic form (U/)na/Una and the modern
                anglicized form Oonagh. You might want to check the lingual weirdness
                table. And see
                http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1685+0 for the
                given name.

                Whoever told her she can't have 3 elements in England is very much
                mistaken. Please feel free to quote from my article as needed!

                Cateline


                In service,
                Alison


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                ... It s good that you found a reliable source for your information. On the other hand, it s also worth noting that if you put five heralds into a room, you
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 29, 2005
                  On Friday 29 July 2005 16:55, Bulgarelli Maria wrote:
                  > Sorry, but a herald just told me wednesday night what
                  > I said.  That's why I could say it with such
                  > authority.

                  It's good that you found a reliable source for your information. On the other
                  hand, it's also worth noting that if you put five heralds into a room, you are
                  likely to get six opinions on any question. And fourteen of the six opinions
                  will be different tomorrow than they are today. :-)

                  Even professional scholars and historians don't always agree on things. If
                  it were not so, then it would be awfully hard for graduate students in
                  liberal arts to find subjects for their dissertations. ;-)

                  There's an old saying that if you consult enough experts, you can confirm
                  any opinion. This is very true in the SCA as well as real-world research. I am
                  not, by any means, saying your heraldic source was wrong, only that there may
                  be more than one right answer to the question depending on who is asked.

                  Justin

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                  keys fesswise reversed sable.

                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
                • Gretchen~ Hulett Hall Academy
                  With the help of local hearldry I was able to come up with a name. I am Osanna Beaupel
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 1, 2005
                    With the help of local hearldry I was able to come up with a name.

                    I am Osanna Beaupel




                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Steven & Gretchen Hulett"
                    <sghulett@b...> wrote:
                    > ok what do you all think of this name?
                    >
                    > Oona le Baker de Summersette
                    >
                    > Gretchen
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • souriete
                    In medieval or Renaissance England people did not have Middle Names, the way 20th century (and now 21st century) Americans think of them †an additional
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 4, 2005
                      In medieval or Renaissance England people did not have Middle Names,
                      the way 20th century (and now 21st century) Americans think of them â€"
                      an additional euphonious given name between the first name and the
                      surname, or an extra family surname to put between the first name and
                      the surname, etc. However 3 and 4 element English names can be
                      documented in England from the 12th century through the 14th
                      centuries. In that case each element appended to the given name was a
                      functional byname (describing the person by their occupation, place of
                      origin, place of residence, name of relative or personal
                      characteristic) or inherited surname. An inherited surname, of course,
                      was originally a functional byname that became inherited by being
                      passed down in a family from person to person. People didn't wake up
                      one morning in 1253 (or any other year!) and say "From now on we are
                      all going to use inherited surnames." Different people in different
                      areas started to use inherited surnames at different times. In the
                      same place and time, we can find evidence of a father and his sons,
                      with some sons using the same surname as the father and other using
                      different surnames.

                      In my limited study, I found about 800 multiple element bynames from
                      English records for which I could clearly identify the type of all
                      elements. Of these, 35% appear in the form Given name â€" Relationship
                      Name â€" Local Name Examples include: Brian Saffray de Pampesworth 1336,
                      Nicholas Pieres de Donstaple 1310, Alanus filius Bede de Swainton’
                      1230, Ailwinus frater Willelmi de Nisindon' 1188, Sewallus Buchard de
                      Kessinglond 1257, Ragenilda uxor Herberti de Bulunia 1203-4. In the
                      case of Brian Saffray, Nicholas Pieres and Sewallus Buchard, it looks
                      like they have a middle name or second given name, but in each case,
                      it is an unmarked patronymic and Saffray, Pieres and Buchard are the
                      given names of their fathers. The rest of the list has marked
                      patronymics, in these cases marked by a Latin word: filius means "son
                      of", frater means "brother of" and uxor means "wife of."

                      My study revealed that the second most common patter was Given Name -
                      Local name â€" Local name, of which 15.6% was composed of this type of
                      name. In some cases these represented place of origin and current
                      residence. It could also represent place of origin and an inherited
                      surname that was originally a local byname. There are a number of
                      other possible explanations for two local bynames. Examples are: Peter
                      de Herlyngge of London 1340, Henry de Waperlond de Wentebrigge 1342-3,
                      Adam atte Ponde de Alvesbourne 1311, William de Hesil of Holborn
                      1346-7, Richard de Coventre de Berewyk 1346, Henry de Suleby of
                      Fletestrete 1324-5.

                      The third most common multiple byname pattern I found was Given name â€"
                      Occupational Name â€" Local name, a pattern which 9.5% of the sample
                      followed. Examples of this pattern are: John le Parmenter of York
                      1349, Richard le Fevre de Bury 1309-10, Willelmus presbiter de Sancto
                      Antonino 1119, William le Skynnere de Flaxtone 1338. (A parmenter is a
                      tailor, a fevre is a smith, a presbiter is a type of cleric.)

                      The fourth most common multiple byname pattern I found was Given name
                      â€" Relationship Name â€" Relationship name, a pattern which 6.3% of the
                      sample followed. Examples of this pattern are: Petrus filius
                      Willelmi fil. Alufi 1228, Adrian fil. Ralph Eswy 1219, Godiua uxor
                      Sibaldi Brunstani late 12th.

                      This is a very short extraction from my article "Patterns in Middle
                      English Names with Multiple Bynames" published in the _Known World
                      Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, Proceedings: 2004_. The full article
                      explains bynames in more detail, gives the sources for each name
                      quoted above and lists more patterns I was able to document, with
                      sample names.

                      I must point out that a given name and a SINGLE byname is by far the
                      most common and documentable form of medieval English name
                      registerable in the SCA. That is certainly the best (most period) form
                      for a medieval English name. However, two (and three) bynames can be
                      documented for medieval England, so if you want to do something like
                      that it is possible. I hope this clarifies English naming practices a
                      little. Let me know if you have any questions.

                      Cateline la souriete


                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Alison Choyce" <choyce@c...> wrote:
                      > From: Bulgarelli Maria
                      > Period people didn't have middle names. The only
                      > exception to this was if there were more than one
                      > person with the same name ........ The Heralds usually don't pass
                      > middle names (around here at least) unless you can
                      > show a REALLY good reason for it.
                      >
                      > Maria
                      >
                      > Maria,
                      > Thank you for answering Capt Elias, and explaining where your
                      information came from. I am citing below, for the benefit of everyone
                      on the list, the response of a friend of mine. She has been
                      researching names for over 20 years, and is respected as a name
                      researcher across the Heraldic community. Her area of greatest
                      knowledge is England of this era.
                      >
                      > My Question to her was, "is three elements reasonable in a 12-13th
                      century English name," and I included the name in the question. In
                      her answer she makes reference to the Knowne World Heraldic Symposium
                      ("last year's symposium proceedings")
                      >
                      > Quoth Dame Cateline la souriete de la Mor:
                      > The short answer is, the name is fine and period if she has
                      > documented the elements. I have attached as documentation for you my
                      > article from last year's symposium proceedings (which I know you
                      > have!)
                      >
                      > Off the top of my head, I'd guess that the bynames are fine though
                      > they might require a few minor spelling changes to more documentable
                      > forms, but the given name looks Irish. Of course that is probably OK:
                      > it might be a weirdness -- the spelling certainly is as it falls
                      > somewhere in between the Irish Gaelic form (U/)na/Una and the modern
                      > anglicized form Oonagh. You might want to check the lingual weirdness
                      > table. And see
                      > http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1685+0 for the
                      > given name.
                      >
                      > Whoever told her she can't have 3 elements in England is very much
                      > mistaken. Please feel free to quote from my article as needed!
                      >
                      > Cateline
                      >
                      >
                      > In service,
                      > Alison
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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