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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More ?'s - Italian garb]

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  • Alison Choyce
    Message 1 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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      <<1- Chemise & undergarments - Correct me if Im wrong... they were made
      out of cotton/linen and usually white/cream in color right? Where
      there any other variances I should know about? Trims/ties etc that
      need to be know to make mind period corrrect? >>

      Made out of linen, lightweight like 3.5 oz that that fabricstore.com sells, and white is the color, if it's off white then you (your persona) did not leave it in the sun long enough, or it's gotten dirty.

      << How about undergarments... what was usually worn under the chemise???
      Or was the chemise the undergarment??? >>

      The chemise is the undergarment and it is meant to protect the more expensive outer clothing .


      << just wondering when the corset/etc
      came into the picture... >>

      Late 15th century. The corset was not just used for support, it was used to create a certain shape to the entire torso, making the ribs more barrel chested and pulling in the waist.

      <<2- Underdress - What fabrics/colors/prints were widely used? Where
      they left pretty plain or have trims or adorments?>>

      The richer you are, the adornments even your underdress will have, however it never outshines the overdress.

      <<3- Overdress - What fabrics/colors/prints were widely used? I have
      read somewhere that an open front is not period - is that correct? Do
      they infact need to open at the sides instead? How about trims or
      adorments for the period? What color of metal was usually used?>>

      Brocades are good, particularly with very large patterns in them, they are generally not open in the front. There is artwork of dresses that are open at the sides, but not all were. And again with trims and such, this where you show off your wealth.



      <<4- Sleeves - What fabrics/colors/prints were widely used? Did they
      usually match the underdress or did they at times have their own
      material like you see with some costums? How about ties/etc?>>

      15th century Italian was not as ostentatious as 16th cenury, sleeves mostly matched, at least I cannot think of artwork off the top of my head were in Italy at this time the sleeves contrasted.


      Good luck,
      Alison






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    • Alison Choyce
      I thought she
      Message 2 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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        <<And for gods sake if you're making Italian Ren Garb
        and planning on going to summer events... think first.
        That stuff's really HOT!!!!!!!! >>

        I thought she said 1400's, which would be 15th century. I have two gowns of that style, that are very cool. The chemise is very lightweight linen, and the gamorra is tropical wool. I have one cioppa that is a heavy brocade that I wear for dance or court, over the gamorra. I would say the chemise and the gamorras are some the coolest garb I have because air can move under the skirts, and it is only fitted around the bust.

        I would say that anyone choosing a name should live with the name for a bit before registering it to be sure they like it, and can answer to it. But we are all involved at different levels, and for some people choosing a name and a persona is an important piece to accomplish early on. I think we do evolve in our interests and pursuits, but you are never "stuck" with anything, you can change your persona if you choose.

        In service,
        Lady Alison Wodehalle, deputy pusuivant
        Shire of Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
        ... Northern Europe during a mini ice age was somewhat cooler than modern-day summers in, say, Meridies or Trimaris. :-) Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
        Message 3 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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          On Thursday 19 May 2005 10:31, Bulgarelli Maria wrote:
          > Mostly because it gets bloody HOT.  

          Northern Europe during a mini ice age was somewhat cooler than modern-day
          summers in, say, Meridies or Trimaris. :-)

          Justin

          --
          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
          keys fesswise reversed sable.

          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
        • christelle
          Hey! Hey! Just because some of us Trimarians wear portable AC under our garb......everyone s gotta complain about the heat!!! Don t get me started
          Message 4 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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            Hey! Hey! Just because some of us "Trimarians" wear portable AC under our
            garb......everyone's gotta complain about the heat!!! <grin>

            Don't get me started on the negativities of snow.

            Christelle/Clarrise........headed to the beach in her chemise

            -------Original Message-------

            From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
            Date: 05/19/05 13:17:04
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More ?'s - Italian garb]

            On Thursday 19 May 2005 10:31, Bulgarelli Maria wrote:
            > Mostly because it gets bloody HOT. Â

            Northern Europe during a mini ice age was somewhat cooler than modern-day
            summers in, say, Meridies or Trimaris. :-)

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
            keys fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bulgarelli Maria
            LOL or Ansteorra. Yeah you re right. Question is where is the peson who s looking for info located. I m thinking if she s located anywhere in the southern
            Message 5 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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              LOL or Ansteorra. Yeah you're right. Question is
              where is the peson who's looking for info located.
              I'm thinking if she's located anywhere in the southern
              part of the US she's not going to want any heavy
              materials. Wool, tropical weight or not, is not fun
              to wear in an Ansteorran July. Believe me. I know.

              Maria
              --- Iustinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
              wrote:
              ---------------------------------
              On Thursday 19 May 2005 10:31, Bulgarelli Maria wrote:
              > Mostly because it gets bloody HOT.

              Northern Europe during a mini ice age was somewhat
              cooler than modern-day
              summers in, say, Meridies or Trimaris. :-)

              Justin

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>
              <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief
              dovetailed Or two
              keys fesswise reversed sable.

              Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)
              http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              justin@... PGP Public Key at
              http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey


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            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
              ... There are _negative_ things about snow?! Justin From northeastern Ohio, and wishing the climate were *cooler* here. Really! -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
              Message 6 of 19 , May 19, 2005
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                On Thursday 19 May 2005 16:17, christelle wrote:
                > Don't get me started on the negativities of snow.

                There are _negative_ things about snow?!

                Justin
                From northeastern Ohio, and wishing the climate were *cooler* here. Really!

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
              • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                ... From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More
                Message 7 of 19 , May 21, 2005
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More ?'s - Italian garb]


                  On Thursday 19 May 2005 16:17, christelle wrote:
                  > Don't get me started on the negativities of snow.

                  There are _negative_ things about snow?!>>

                  Only that we don't get enough of it in SE PA.

                  I miss SE Michigan and blizzards.

                  Laurensa


                  Justin
                  From northeastern Ohio, and wishing the climate were *cooler* here. Really!



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/19/2005 10:35:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scarlettmb@sbcglobal.net writes:
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 22, 2005
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                    In a message dated 5/19/2005 10:35:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    scarlettmb@... writes:

                    <<First of all, if you're a perfectionist, go ahead
                    and be a perfectionist. I'm not going to tell you not
                    to be. But remember you aren't required to wear all
                    that stuff. Very few people wear all the correct
                    undergarments with their SCA garb. Mostly because it
                    gets bloody HOT. >>

                    For a differing point of view, I applaud you for starting out wanting to get
                    your things period, and I urge you not to let the opinions of others prevent
                    you from trying things the period way first. I listened to the folks who
                    told me period clothing was hot because it was wool and all the layers, and
                    made my stuff out of cotton and polycotton, like my modern summer clothes. I
                    found myself trying to find lighter and lighter fabrics, and making shirts just
                    long enough to stay inside my skirts instead of full-length chemises,
                    because the layers were hot.

                    Then I finally decided to make a roughly period gown in linen. It wasn't
                    lightweight linen, either - it's pretty thick. I wore a full-length,
                    long-sleeved cotton muslin undergown and a linen veil with it - and was amazed when I
                    found that I could sit out all day on a hot day and was far more comfortable
                    than I had been in my shirt/skirt combinations. All of my clothes are now
                    made of linen and wool, with the proper layers, and I am both cooler at hot
                    events and warmer at cold events than I was when I tried to use the shortcuts.

                    My persona is 12th century English. She'd likely have always worn a wool
                    outer gown and linen undergarments. I can't manage a wool outer gown in the
                    summer (although when I finish my tropical weight wool bliaut I'm going to see
                    if that works). The highest likely temperature where she lived would have
                    been about 75 degrees; where I live it may be 100 or more. So as a compromise I
                    make some of my outer gowns out of linen, and only on the very hottest days
                    do I find that I need to dispense with my linen undergown and just wear one
                    layer of linen.
                    Italy would probably have had a higher average temperature in period than
                    England, as it's much nearer the Equator, although I don't know what that
                    average might be. In period, they didn't have the climate control for buildings
                    we're used to. So my guess is that clothing made the way period Italians made
                    it would probably be quite comfortable in warmer temperatures - they NEEDED
                    to dress for the weather in a way that we do not.

                    So my advice to you would be go ahead and make one outfit as close to the
                    way a period Italian would have made it as possible, and wear it a few times.
                    If you find it's too hot, then try altering it, either by changing fabrics or
                    losing a layer or so. But don't decide right off the bat not to even try
                    because someone else found what they tried (which may not have been period
                    accurate fabrics) too hot.


                    <<My point here is, don't pigeon hole yourself until you
                    really know what you want to do. I've been in the SCA
                    for 7 years now and still don't have a registered
                    name. I just haven't figured out what to do yet. I'm
                    interested in too many things. I don't have
                    registered arms yet either for the same reason. >>

                    This is good advice for most people; I know I bounced around through Ren
                    Faire wench , viking, and a few other styles before I finally settled on mine.
                    But at the same time, it's certainly not going to hurt you to make the effort
                    to make even your first clothes period; if you find you want to stay with
                    the period you initially chose then you are ahead of the game, and if not you
                    either have a really good outfit to wear to Italian Ren-themed events, or you
                    have a valuable piece of barter or sale material. And I've known people who
                    knew what they wanted to do right from the beginning and never changed their
                    minds.


                    Brangwayna Morgan
                    Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                    Lancaster, PA


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bulgarelli Maria
                    Good advice and about what I was trying to say. I m not a perfectionist (though I know most of the people in the East kingdom can be ... I lived in
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 22, 2005
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                      Good advice and about what I was trying to say. I'm
                      not a perfectionist (though I know most of the people
                      in the East kingdom can be ... I lived in Philadelphia
                      for most of my life.)

                      I think the biggest thing to remember here is that we
                      live in the US in the middle of a big warming trend
                      and let's be honest, the middle ages was a mini ice
                      age. So ... use your best judgement and do what you
                      think will be comfortable. Here in Houston, where I
                      live now, I was at an event yesterday in early greek
                      because it was so frikkin hot I couldn't wear anything
                      else. There were women there who fainted because they
                      had their heavy SUMMER garb on (tropical wool etc.)
                      So like I said, it's all going to depend on where you
                      live and how comfortable you want to be.

                      Maria
                      --- bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                      ---------------------------------
                      In a message dated 5/19/2005 10:35:39 A.M. Eastern
                      Standard Time,
                      scarlettmb@... writes:

                      <<First of all, if you're a perfectionist, go ahead
                      and be a perfectionist. I'm not going to tell you
                      not
                      to be. But remember you aren't required to wear all
                      that stuff. Very few people wear all the correct
                      undergarments with their SCA garb. Mostly because it
                      gets bloody HOT. >>

                      For a differing point of view, I applaud you for
                      starting out wanting to get
                      your things period, and I urge you not to let the
                      opinions of others prevent
                      you from trying things the period way first. I
                      listened to the folks who
                      told me period clothing was hot because it was wool
                      and all the layers, and
                      made my stuff out of cotton and polycotton, like my
                      modern summer clothes. I
                      found myself trying to find lighter and lighter
                      fabrics, and making shirts just
                      long enough to stay inside my skirts instead of
                      full-length chemises,
                      because the layers were hot.

                      Then I finally decided to make a roughly period gown
                      in linen. It wasn't
                      lightweight linen, either - it's pretty thick. I wore
                      a full-length,
                      long-sleeved cotton muslin undergown and a linen veil
                      with it - and was amazed when I
                      found that I could sit out all day on a hot day and
                      was far more comfortable
                      than I had been in my shirt/skirt combinations. All
                      of my clothes are now
                      made of linen and wool, with the proper layers, and I
                      am both cooler at hot
                      events and warmer at cold events than I was when I
                      tried to use the shortcuts.

                      My persona is 12th century English. She'd likely have
                      always worn a wool
                      outer gown and linen undergarments. I can't manage a
                      wool outer gown in the
                      summer (although when I finish my tropical weight wool
                      bliaut I'm going to see
                      if that works). The highest likely temperature where
                      she lived would have
                      been about 75 degrees; where I live it may be 100 or
                      more. So as a compromise I
                      make some of my outer gowns out of linen, and only on
                      the very hottest days
                      do I find that I need to dispense with my linen
                      undergown and just wear one
                      layer of linen.
                      Italy would probably have had a higher average
                      temperature in period than
                      England, as it's much nearer the Equator, although I
                      don't know what that
                      average might be. In period, they didn't have the
                      climate control for buildings
                      we're used to. So my guess is that clothing made the
                      way period Italians made
                      it would probably be quite comfortable in warmer
                      temperatures - they NEEDED
                      to dress for the weather in a way that we do not.

                      So my advice to you would be go ahead and make one
                      outfit as close to the
                      way a period Italian would have made it as possible,
                      and wear it a few times.
                      If you find it's too hot, then try altering it, either
                      by changing fabrics or
                      losing a layer or so. But don't decide right off the
                      bat not to even try
                      because someone else found what they tried (which may
                      not have been period
                      accurate fabrics) too hot.


                      <<My point here is, don't pigeon hole yourself until
                      you
                      really know what you want to do. I've been in the
                      SCA
                      for 7 years now and still don't have a registered
                      name. I just haven't figured out what to do yet.
                      I'm
                      interested in too many things. I don't have
                      registered arms yet either for the same reason. >>

                      This is good advice for most people; I know I bounced
                      around through Ren
                      Faire wench , viking, and a few other styles before I
                      finally settled on mine.
                      But at the same time, it's certainly not going to hurt
                      you to make the effort
                      to make even your first clothes period; if you find
                      you want to stay with
                      the period you initially chose then you are ahead of
                      the game, and if not you
                      either have a really good outfit to wear to Italian
                      Ren-themed events, or you
                      have a valuable piece of barter or sale material. And
                      I've known people who
                      knew what they wanted to do right from the beginning
                      and never changed their
                      minds.


                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • Janet
                      I think if you like the style, make one or two sets of it and see how it works for you. Even if you decide on a different persona, it never hurts to have extra
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 22, 2005
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                        I think if you like the style, make one or two sets of
                        it and see how it works for you. Even if you decide on
                        a different persona, it never hurts to have extra garb
                        around. People do where garb from other times and
                        places than their own persona.
                        ~Isabel

                        > <<My point here is, don't pigeon hole yourself
                        > until you
                        > really know what you want to do. I've been in the
                        > SCA
                        > for 7 years now and still don't have a registered
                        > name. I just haven't figured out what to do yet.
                        > I'm
                        > interested in too many things. I don't have
                        > registered arms yet either for the same reason. >>
                        >
                        > This is good advice for most people; I know I
                        > bounced around through Ren
                        > Faire wench , viking, and a few other styles before
                        > I finally settled on mine.
                        > But at the same time, it's certainly not going to
                        > hurt you to make the effort
                        > to make even your first clothes period; if you find
                        > you want to stay with
                        > the period you initially chose then you are ahead of
                        > the game, and if not you
                        > either have a really good outfit to wear to Italian
                        > Ren-themed events, or you
                        > have a valuable piece of barter or sale material.
                        > And I've known people who
                        > knew what they wanted to do right from the beginning
                        > and never changed their
                        > minds.


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                      • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                        ... From: Bulgarelli Maria To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More ? s - Italian
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 22, 2005
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Bulgarelli Maria
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 6:33 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More ?'s - Italian garb]


                          There were women there who fainted because they
                          had their heavy SUMMER garb on (tropical wool etc.)
                          So like I said, it's all going to depend on where you
                          live and how comfortable you want to be.>>
                          I live in SE PA, which can get very hot and humid, and I adore my tropical weight wool dress. I can't wait to make more!

                          Laurensa




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bulgarelli Maria
                          I am originally from Philadelphia so I know the weather there. Moved here 7 years ago. Believe me I could wear tropical weight wool there in the hottest part
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 22, 2005
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                            I am originally from Philadelphia so I know the
                            weather there. Moved here 7 years ago. Believe me I
                            could wear tropical weight wool there in the hottest
                            part of the summer. I wouldn't wear it here in May
                            for any reason. On Saturday it went up to about 98
                            degrees.

                            Maria
                            --- Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@...> wrote:
                            ---------------------------------

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Bulgarelli Maria
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 6:33 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: woops [Fwd: More
                            ?'s - Italian garb]


                            There were women there who fainted because they
                            had their heavy SUMMER garb on (tropical wool etc.)
                            So like I said, it's all going to depend on where
                            you
                            live and how comfortable you want to be.>>
                            I live in SE PA, which can get very hot and humid,
                            and I adore my tropical weight wool dress. I can't
                            wait to make more!

                            Laurensa




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                          • Alison Choyce
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 23, 2005
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                              << I live in SE PA, which can get very hot and humid, and I adore my tropical weight wool dress. I can't wait to make more!

                              Laurensa >>

                              I also live in SE PA, and attend Pennsic, and the wool gammurras I had referred to a few days ago is what I wear in the sweltering conditions of both places-very comfortably. It is worn with a lightweight linen chemise. As I purchase new mundane clothing,I am now trying to purchase summer clothes made of linen or lightweight wool, since learning how comfortable I am in garb.

                              BTW, I primarily wear cotehardies, and even the one I have made out of a wool flannel is more comfortable in hot & humid weather at Pennsic, than any of the things I initially made in cotton.

                              IN service,
                              Alison Wodehalle
                              Shire of Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                              ... Wool is great to have at Pennsic for the evenings, too, because it can get much colder than many people expect. :-) Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 23, 2005
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                                On Monday 23 May 2005 06:12, Alison Choyce wrote:
                                > I also live in SE PA, and attend Pennsic, and the wool gammurras I had
                                > referred to a few days ago is what I wear in the sweltering conditions
                                > of both places-very comfortably.  It is worn with a lightweight linen
                                > chemise.

                                Wool is great to have at Pennsic for the evenings, too, because it can get
                                much colder than many people expect. :-)

                                Justin

                                --
                                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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