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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Fabric questions

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  • Kirianna
    I agree.... And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing cotton too! ~Kirianna ... -- www.jackntracie.com Live, and learn... [Non-text
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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      I agree....

      And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing
      cotton too!

      ~Kirianna

      tori T wrote:

      >I have a problem with this last message. some of the things said, yes were true. BUT there are people like myself who work full time just to be broke. And I'm not one of those people who buys wants over needs. Some times people have to use old bed sheets and dollar-a-yard fabric. I am proud to say I am one of them. I have never yet said "oh that dress was so uncomfortable" or "ugh, another repair I have to make". If you do these things corectly, you wont be uncomfortable or have to make repairs all the time. I just got done making another dress for myself and my dad said "thats an old sheet?!?". Yes it was and it is THE most comfortable, best looking dress I have made. So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper fabric and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. if it's period (which cotton is) and it's comfortable and warm (my first dress and first event was made with cotton and I stayed way warm with 4 inches of snow on the ground with NO
      > cloak) then wear it!
      >
      >Antonia
      >
      >
      >
      >bronwynmgn@... wrote: In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      >scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >
      ><<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
      >garment in Competition.>>
      >
      ><<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion for
      >authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>
      >
      >Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it perturbs me.
      >
      >Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed to be
      >educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
      >
      >I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find some of
      >the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may well be
      >needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if you can
      >find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap fabrics
      >myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
      >period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford them and limit
      >the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been a reason;
      >I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?
      >
      >Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by sticking to
      >the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way they did and
      >why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them. I've learned
      >that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period materials is
      >FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping events with
      >their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.
      >
      >We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over synthetics.
      >When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put together,
      >generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement. My wool and linen
      >tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases - without needing
      >repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and old
      >bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come out and repair tears
      >and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a comfort fabric,
      >and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days that are 50
      >degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress will keep you
      >comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to run around
      >in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak and
      >shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood and wool socks and
      >you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way. And
      >certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your clothes, as I've seen at
      >any number of events.
      >
      >It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval and
      >renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern waterproof materials
      >(and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat anyway), and they
      >lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back and forth
      >between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the weather. Why
      >do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for that matter)
      >weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong stuff (stuff
      >that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and then complain
      >when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.
      >
      >I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
      >competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more practical for what
      >we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made of cheap fabric
      >off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about how
      >uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need to make, when you
      >can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?
      >
      >And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen goes in the
      >washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron is my
      >veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+ year old neighbors
      >still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it really needs
      >washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to dry.
      >
      >
      >Brangwayna Morgan
      >Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
      >Lancaster, PA
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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      --
      www.jackntracie.com
      Live, and learn...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kirianna
      (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable Goodwill or second hand stores! ~Kiri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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        (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable

        Goodwill or second hand stores!

        ~Kiri


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tori T
        As far as finding used bed sheets suitable, most of the time I use my old bed sheets (I haven t used many but from my old twin bed and now in a queen).
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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          As far as finding used bed sheets suitable, most of the time I use my old bed sheets (I haven't used many but from my old twin bed and now in a queen). Sometimes I can find some at garage sales, but most of the time I would use the flat sheet cause not many people use them or really pay attention to them (most people I know let me refraise that). but not too often. Also you can find some at a nearby goodwill or anystore of the such. You could probably find some at an outlet store or any store like that with not much wrong with it that you can cut around.

          Antonia





          chemistbb3 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Ya know, I do have to agree with this to a point.

          Yes the fabrics that were used in period do work very well for period
          clothes and they wear very well. They are suppose to since, in
          period, that is what the folks had and it had to. And yes the SCA is
          suppose to be educational, but isn't technique the more important
          thing? If A&S was limited to total authenticity, I doubt that we
          would see many entries. For example, how many costumers actually
          work with period fabric that is made as it was in period, with
          equipment made as it was in period?

          OK, I can afford the "correct" fabric, even at $50 per yard, (it may
          be the only fabric I buy for a couple of months though) but I am
          still not above buying good cotton fabric when I can find it on
          sale. Sorry, but I baulk at $10 a yard stuff (going price at my
          local fabric store for linen, if it is available.). I search the
          bargin tables, just like anyone else. Yes, I am going to bite the
          bullet and pay the bucks for linen and wool soon, but I will still
          make good ol' cotton tunics and hoods as well. They are comfortable,
          wear well, and quite frankly suit the purpose. Also, I know a number
          of folks that share The Dream that quite frankly have difficulty
          scraping up enough to pay gas to go to events and have to do without
          to pay gate. They have done marvelous things with bits and prices
          from yard sales, and quite frankly won a Frugal Garb contest or two.

          Yes, the period fabrics are good, but I would rather see my friends
          at an event in bedsheets than not at all...

          William
          (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable
          for garb?)

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:
          > In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
          >
          > <<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
          > garment in Competition.>>
          >
          > <<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion
          for
          > authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>
          >
          > Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it
          perturbs me.
          >
          > Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed
          to be
          > educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
          >
          > I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to
          find some of
          > the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may
          well be
          > needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if
          you can
          > find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used
          cheap fabrics
          > myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to
          using only
          > period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford
          them and limit
          > the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has
          been a reason;
          > I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?
          >
          > Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by
          sticking to
          > the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way
          they did and
          > why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them.
          I've learned
          > that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period
          materials is
          > FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping
          events with
          > their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.
          >
          > We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over
          synthetics.
          > When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put
          together,
          > generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement.
          My wool and linen
          > tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases -
          without needing
          > repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and
          old
          > bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come
          out and repair tears
          > and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a
          comfort fabric,
          > and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days
          that are 50
          > degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress
          will keep you
          > comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to
          run around
          > in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak
          and
          > shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood
          and wool socks and
          > you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way.
          And
          > certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your
          clothes, as I've seen at
          > any number of events.
          >
          > It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval
          and
          > renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern
          waterproof materials
          > (and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat
          anyway), and they
          > lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back
          and forth
          > between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the
          weather. Why
          > do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for
          that matter)
          > weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong
          stuff (stuff
          > that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and
          then complain
          > when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.
          >
          > I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
          > competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more
          practical for what
          > we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made
          of cheap fabric
          > off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about
          how
          > uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need
          to make, when you
          > can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?
          >
          > And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen
          goes in the
          > washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron
          is my
          > veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+
          year old neighbors
          > still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it
          really needs
          > washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to
          dry.
          >
          >
          > Brangwayna Morgan
          > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
          > Lancaster, PA
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        • Katie Pleasance
          Huzzah for William! That s the attitude we newbies need to hear. Some of you old-timers need to remember: Intimidated Newbies Won t Be SCA Newbies For Long --
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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            Huzzah for William! That's the attitude we newbies need to hear.

            Some of you old-timers need to remember: Intimidated Newbies Won't Be SCA
            Newbies For Long -- They Will Be Doing Something Other Than SCA.

            Katie


            >Yes, the period fabrics are good, but I would rather see my friends
            >at an event in bedsheets than not at all...
            >William
            >(Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable
            >for garb?)
          • Susan Farmer
            And on the topic of period fabrics ... I thought the Authenticity Fabric Note was a tad over the top and I ve played in the SCA on and off since there were
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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              And on the topic of "period fabrics ..."

              I thought the Authenticity Fabric Note was a tad over the top and
              I've played in the SCA on and off since there were only 4 kingdoms.

              The purpose of this particular group is to **encourage** newcomers,
              not *discourage* them.

              Jerusha in Meridies
            • Tirloch O'Riordain
              ... While I agree with your sentiment in spirit (I always think it a good thing to promote the authentic experience and to promote education), I do think that
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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                bronwynmgn@... wrote:

                >
                > I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find
                > some of
                > the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may
                > well be
                > needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if
                > you can
                > find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap
                > fabrics
                > myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
                > period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford
                > them and limit
                > the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been
                > a reason;
                > I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?


                While I agree with your sentiment in spirit (I always think it a good
                thing to promote the authentic experience and to promote education), I
                do think that you are missing certain realities. You stated that you
                used cheap fabrics in your early years but now...

                What you are missing in this logic is that these people are in their
                early years, many of them are making a first attempt at garb. They are
                making now the same decisions that you made years ago. Some of them will
                find us a wonderful experience, others may not stick around. Your
                decision to switch to more period and expensive clothing is a decision
                made about a known future. You know that you will use these clothes. You
                know that you are going to be around in a year or two. While I hope that
                new people will find our group worthy of their spare time, that may not
                be a decision that they have made yet. That is the reason why our
                corpora states that the only requirement is that you make an 'attempt"
                at pre-seveteenth century clothing. We do not want to restrict them. We
                want them to come and to learn and to play. Maybe someday they will
                convert as you did, maybe they will not. There are many people for whom
                the SCA has become their premiere hobby, and they apply much of their
                free time and budget to it. There are many others however for whom it is
                a minor hobby, and they do not wish to dedicate much time or money to
                it. We have to understand this, and not apply our views to those people,
                but rather assist them at any level that they wish to commit to.

                Your Servant,

                Tirloch
              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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                  In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                  <<So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper fabric
                  and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. >>

                  I was not ragging on people who have to use cheap fabric if they want garb at
                  all, nor on people who choose to use cheap fabric because they want to spend
                  their money on other things, like period musical instruments, armor, or a
                  flat-screen TV - or even the rent on their apartment or food for their kids. Nor
                  did I say it was "wrong" to use cheap fabrics - I said I found it better to
                  use period ones. Saying one thing is better does not mean the other thing is
                  "wrong". I'm not rolling in money, contrary to your opinion - one paycheck a
                  month pays my mortgage, and all but about $200 of the other one goes to pay
                  other bills. Most of that $200 a month goes for gas, food, mundane clothes (which
                  I wear until they fall apart, regardless of changing fashions), and taking
                  care of my cats. I still choose to use some of that money, spent wisely, to
                  buy period fabrics for my garb.

                  I was responding to the people who insist that the only reason to consider
                  using period fabrics is if you want to win competitions. I gave a variety of
                  reasons why I have found saving my money for period fabrics to be more practical
                  and a better use of the money I do have. Your mileage may vary, of course,
                  and you are certainly free to choose to spend your money where you will, and to
                  wear what you like. I simply tried to present an alternative and far more
                  practical argument to competitions as a reason to use period fabrics, and got
                  attacked for it.


                  Brangwayna Morgan
                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                  Lancaster, PA


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • chemistbb3
                  Ahhhhh, Then what we had here was a failya to communicate... Now your earlier post makes better sense to me! I have always liked the sound advice you have
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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                    Ahhhhh,
                    Then what we had here was a failya to communicate...

                    Now your earlier post makes better sense to me!

                    I have always liked the sound advice you have always given and the
                    way your earlier post read to me was a bit of a shock. I'M glad that
                    is cleared up to me!

                    Williamk

                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:
                    > In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    > scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                    >
                    > <<So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper
                    fabric
                    > and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. >>
                    >
                    > I was not ragging on people who have to use cheap fabric if they
                    want garb at
                    > all, nor on people who choose to use cheap fabric because they want
                    to spend
                    > their money on other things, like period musical instruments,
                    armor, or a
                    > flat-screen TV - or even the rent on their apartment or food for
                    their kids. Nor
                    > did I say it was "wrong" to use cheap fabrics - I said I found it
                    better to
                    > use period ones. Saying one thing is better does not mean the
                    other thing is
                    > "wrong". I'm not rolling in money, contrary to your opinion - one
                    paycheck a
                    > month pays my mortgage, and all but about $200 of the other one
                    goes to pay
                    > other bills. Most of that $200 a month goes for gas, food, mundane
                    clothes (which
                    > I wear until they fall apart, regardless of changing fashions), and
                    taking
                    > care of my cats. I still choose to use some of that money, spent
                    wisely, to
                    > buy period fabrics for my garb.
                    >
                    > I was responding to the people who insist that the only reason to
                    consider
                    > using period fabrics is if you want to win competitions. I gave a
                    variety of
                    > reasons why I have found saving my money for period fabrics to be
                    more practical
                    > and a better use of the money I do have. Your mileage may vary, of
                    course,
                    > and you are certainly free to choose to spend your money where you
                    will, and to
                    > wear what you like. I simply tried to present an alternative and
                    far more
                    > practical argument to competitions as a reason to use period
                    fabrics, and got
                    > attacked for it.
                    >
                    >
                    > Brangwayna Morgan
                    > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                    > Lancaster, PA
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mackenzie
                    ... The way you guys are talking, you make it sound as if cotton wasn t period! Cotton is perfectly period, especially if you re from the Orient, Middle East,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
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                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kirianna <kitani@c...> wrote:
                      > I agree....
                      >
                      > And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing
                      > cotton too!


                      The way you guys are talking, you make it sound as if cotton wasn't
                      period! Cotton is perfectly period, especially if you're from the
                      Orient, Middle East, Byzantium, Italy, or Egypt. It was available in
                      all of those areas for anyone of merchant class or higher. Lower
                      classes than that in Egypt, slightly east of Middle East, and Orient.
                      The nobility (as long as they weren't very low, poor nobility) could
                      afford it in France. England's about the only place where you would
                      need a royal connection to own cotton (the S&H was too high! LOL).

                      I suggest you guys take a visit over to SCA_Normans. Kirsten has tons
                      of information on linen and wool and her arguments about how cotton is
                      very period (Kirsten is a merchant with plenty of experience).
                    • Terrie B.
                      Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied! I do value your
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 3, 2004
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                        Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I
                        my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied!
                        I do value your input!


                        Not quite scared away,

                        T
                      • Tirloch O'Riordain
                        ... Greetings, You stirred nothing up dear Lady... you but asked a simple question. As in all large organizations, occasionally different subjects will strike
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 3, 2004
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                          Terrie B. wrote:

                          > Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I
                          > my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied!
                          > I do value your input!
                          >
                          >
                          > Not quite scared away,
                          >
                          > T


                          Greetings,

                          You stirred nothing up dear Lady... you but asked a simple question.
                          As in all large organizations, occasionally different subjects will
                          strike cords with certain people, which often brings out more of an
                          emotional response than they may wish. I am sad that such a discussion
                          would take place on this list, but please take no fault of it upon
                          yourself. If nothing else, you were given a good indicator of the many
                          different views people have about costuming in the SCA, and therefore
                          you have a good starting point from which to make up your own mind on
                          what appeals to you.

                          I hope that you find the SCA to be a rewarding pastime, as so many of us
                          have.

                          Your Servant,

                          Tirloch
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