Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Fabric questions

Expand Messages
  • Terrie B.
    Hello everyone! I would like to know some safe substitutions for fabric. I ve been doing a lot of reading on dresses and cothardies. I ve also
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      <delurk>

      Hello everyone!

      I would like to know some safe substitutions for fabric. I've been
      doing a lot of reading on dresses and cothardies. I've also
      experimented with some patterns. However I just can't afford linen in
      my area - which is $12 yard and up. ( I live in a small town in east
      cental Ontario )

      I've been searching the archives but haven't seen a direct answer to
      this question. I've looked at so many pattern sites my head is
      spinning! I'd just like to know what I can use for fabric so I can not
      be embarassed in my cotton broadcloth tunic at my next event...

      (BTW, what is with the adult links in your archive there?)

      YIS,

      (Terrie)

      Tereysa Partera
      Petrea Thule, Septentria

      </delurk>
    • tori T
      cheep bed sheets. everyone that I know tell s me to look for cheep bed sheets. they come in good colors (most of the time lol) and are big enough to do some
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        cheep bed sheets. everyone that I know tell's me to look for cheep bed sheets. they come in good colors (most of the time lol) and are big enough to do some things but if you need a lot, look at the dollar rack for good cheep fabric. thats where I find a lot of my fabric.

        Antonia (Tori)



        "Terrie B." <teebear@...> wrote: <delurk>

        Hello everyone!

        I would like to know some safe substitutions for fabric. I've been
        doing a lot of reading on dresses and cothardies. I've also
        experimented with some patterns. However I just can't afford linen in
        my area - which is $12 yard and up. ( I live in a small town in east
        cental Ontario )

        I've been searching the archives but haven't seen a direct answer to
        this question. I've looked at so many pattern sites my head is
        spinning! I'd just like to know what I can use for fabric so I can not
        be embarassed in my cotton broadcloth tunic at my next event...

        (BTW, what is with the adult links in your archive there?)

        YIS,

        (Terrie)

        Tereysa Partera
        Petrea Thule, Septentria

        </delurk>


        Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




        ---------------------------------
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Katie Pleasance
        You forgot hemp. At Stonemountain and Daughters in Berkeley, CA, there is a wall of hemp fabric. I assume that it must be available elsewhere. I know nothing
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          You forgot hemp. At Stonemountain and Daughters in Berkeley, CA, there is a
          wall of hemp fabric. I assume that it must be available elsewhere. I know
          nothing about it's workability / wearability.

          Katie


          >IMHO, only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
          >garment in Competition. However, avoid polyester at all cost -- you'll
          >either bake or freeze. Cotton, Ramie, Rayon (yes, Rayon -- process is
          >synthetic, fiber is cellulose), silk, wool and linen are your natural
          >fibers -- and you'll be far more comfortable in them.
          >Jerusha
        • Susan Farmer
          ... Honey, if cotton broadcloth is what you got, then wear it proudly. Cotton itself is indeed period in quite a few locations other than Egypt and India --
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            > I would like to know some safe substitutions for fabric. I've been
            > doing a lot of reading on dresses and cothardies. I've also
            > experimented with some patterns. However I just can't afford linen in
            > my area - which is $12 yard and up. ( I live in a small town in east
            > cental Ontario )
            >
            > I've been searching the archives but haven't seen a direct answer to
            > this question. I've looked at so many pattern sites my head is
            > spinning! I'd just like to know what I can use for fabric so I can not
            > be embarassed in my cotton broadcloth tunic at my next event...

            Honey, if cotton broadcloth is what you got, then wear it proudly.
            Cotton itself is indeed period in quite a few locations other than
            Egypt and India -- like Italy.

            IMHO, only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
            garment in Competition. However, avoid polyester at all cost -- you'll
            either bake or freeze. Cotton, Ramie, Rayon (yes, Rayon -- process is
            synthetic, fiber is cellulose), silk, wool and linen are your natural
            fibers -- and you'll be far more comfortable in them.

            Jerusha
          • Susan Farmer
            ... Ooh, yeah. Thanks for the reminder. I think it s considered a bast fiber like linen and ramie (if you read about fabric made from nettles, raime and
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >
              > You forgot hemp. At Stonemountain and Daughters in Berkeley, CA, there is a
              > wall of hemp fabric. I assume that it must be available elsewhere. I know
              > nothing about it's workability / wearability.

              Ooh, yeah. Thanks for the reminder. I think it's considered a "bast
              fiber" like linen and ramie (if you read about fabric made from nettles,
              raime and nettles are in the same plant family).

              Jerusha

              > >IMHO, only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
              > >garment in Competition. However, avoid polyester at all cost -- you'll
              > >either bake or freeze. Cotton, Ramie, Rayon (yes, Rayon -- process is
              > >synthetic, fiber is cellulose), silk, wool and linen are your natural
              > >fibers -- and you'll be far more comfortable in them.
              > >Jerusha
              >
            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
              ... And Byzantium, from what I ve read in my research. Justin -- ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tuesday 29 June 2004 15:41, Susan Farmer wrote:
                > Honey, if cotton broadcloth is what you got, then wear it proudly.
                > Cotton itself is indeed period in quite a few locations other than
                > Egypt and India -- like Italy.

                And Byzantium, from what I've read in my research.

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/29/2004 1:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 30, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 6/29/2004 1:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                  <<I would like to know some safe substitutions for fabric. I've been
                  doing a lot of reading on dresses and cothardies. I've also
                  experimented with some patterns. However I just can't afford linen in
                  my area - which is $12 yard and up. ( I live in a small town in east
                  cental Ontario )>>

                  Have you tried any of the online fabric sources? Fabrics-store.com usually
                  has a wide selection of colors and weights of linen as low as $6/yard (US $) or
                  occasionally even $4/yard in their regular area and even cheaper sometimes in
                  the "Ooops" and "Doggy Bag" sections. I can understand being reluctant to
                  purchase fabric you've never seen, but they will send you a free swatch of any
                  fabric you request. My husband and I have purchased fabric from them and have
                  never needed to return any because we were displeased with it. There are
                  other online merchants as well, but this is the only one I have used.

                  As far as substitutions, that depends on what you are wanting to substitute
                  for. For underclothes, bleached cotton muslin is usually fine and can be found
                  as low as $0.99/yard. Substitutions for overgarments are going to depend on
                  the type of overgarment you are making and whether it needs to flow and drape
                  nicely or be rather stiff. From a physical safety and comfort standpoint, try
                  to avoid anything synthetic or blended with synthetic if at all possible.
                  All natural fibers are far more comfortable to wear, and synthetics will melt to
                  your body if gotten too close to the open flames common at some SCA events.

                  How are wool prices in your area? Wool seems to have been the most commonly
                  used fabric for overgarments in period; tropical weight wool can even be worn
                  in the summer fairly comfortably.


                  Brangwayna Morgan
                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                  Lancaster, PA


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • chemistbb3
                  Didn t even know they were there, but they are not there now! (and neither is the poster!) If you do find something listed in either the links or the files
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 30, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Didn't even know they were there, but they are not there now! (and
                    neither is the poster!)

                    If you do find something listed in either the links or the files
                    sections where you question it's need to be listed for this Group,
                    let the Moderators know and we will check into it. We do our best to
                    keep spam and junk out, but we miss sometimes...

                    William

                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Terrie B." <teebear@r...> wrote:
                    >
                    > (BTW, what is with the adult links in your archive there?)
                    >
                    > YIS,
                    >
                    > (Terrie)
                    >
                    > Tereysa Partera
                    > Petrea Thule, Septentria
                    >
                    > </delurk>
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                      <<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
                      garment in Competition.>>

                      <<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion for
                      authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>

                      Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it perturbs me.

                      Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed to be
                      educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?

                      I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find some of
                      the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may well be
                      needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if you can
                      find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap fabrics
                      myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
                      period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford them and limit
                      the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been a reason;
                      I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?

                      Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by sticking to
                      the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way they did and
                      why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them. I've learned
                      that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period materials is
                      FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping events with
                      their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.

                      We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over synthetics.
                      When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put together,
                      generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement. My wool and linen
                      tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases - without needing
                      repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and old
                      bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come out and repair tears
                      and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a comfort fabric,
                      and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days that are 50
                      degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress will keep you
                      comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to run around
                      in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak and
                      shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood and wool socks and
                      you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way. And
                      certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your clothes, as I've seen at
                      any number of events.

                      It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval and
                      renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern waterproof materials
                      (and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat anyway), and they
                      lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back and forth
                      between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the weather. Why
                      do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for that matter)
                      weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong stuff (stuff
                      that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and then complain
                      when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.

                      I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
                      competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more practical for what
                      we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made of cheap fabric
                      off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about how
                      uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need to make, when you
                      can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?

                      And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen goes in the
                      washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron is my
                      veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+ year old neighbors
                      still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it really needs
                      washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to dry.


                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tori T
                      I have a problem with this last message. some of the things said, yes were true. BUT there are people like myself who work full time just to be broke. And I m
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I have a problem with this last message. some of the things said, yes were true. BUT there are people like myself who work full time just to be broke. And I'm not one of those people who buys wants over needs. Some times people have to use old bed sheets and dollar-a-yard fabric. I am proud to say I am one of them. I have never yet said "oh that dress was so uncomfortable" or "ugh, another repair I have to make". If you do these things corectly, you wont be uncomfortable or have to make repairs all the time. I just got done making another dress for myself and my dad said "thats an old sheet?!?". Yes it was and it is THE most comfortable, best looking dress I have made. So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper fabric and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. if it's period (which cotton is) and it's comfortable and warm (my first dress and first event was made with cotton and I stayed way warm with 4 inches of snow on the ground with NO
                        cloak) then wear it!

                        Antonia



                        bronwynmgn@... wrote: In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                        <<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
                        garment in Competition.>>

                        <<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion for
                        authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>

                        Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it perturbs me.

                        Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed to be
                        educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?

                        I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find some of
                        the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may well be
                        needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if you can
                        find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap fabrics
                        myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
                        period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford them and limit
                        the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been a reason;
                        I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?

                        Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by sticking to
                        the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way they did and
                        why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them. I've learned
                        that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period materials is
                        FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping events with
                        their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.

                        We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over synthetics.
                        When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put together,
                        generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement. My wool and linen
                        tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases - without needing
                        repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and old
                        bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come out and repair tears
                        and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a comfort fabric,
                        and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days that are 50
                        degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress will keep you
                        comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to run around
                        in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak and
                        shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood and wool socks and
                        you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way. And
                        certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your clothes, as I've seen at
                        any number of events.

                        It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval and
                        renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern waterproof materials
                        (and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat anyway), and they
                        lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back and forth
                        between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the weather. Why
                        do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for that matter)
                        weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong stuff (stuff
                        that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and then complain
                        when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.

                        I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
                        competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more practical for what
                        we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made of cheap fabric
                        off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about how
                        uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need to make, when you
                        can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?

                        And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen goes in the
                        washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron is my
                        veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+ year old neighbors
                        still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it really needs
                        washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to dry.


                        Brangwayna Morgan
                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                        Lancaster, PA


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                        Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                        ---------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers/

                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                        ---------------------------------
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kirianna
                        I agree.... And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing cotton too! ~Kirianna ... -- www.jackntracie.com Live, and learn... [Non-text
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I agree....

                          And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing
                          cotton too!

                          ~Kirianna

                          tori T wrote:

                          >I have a problem with this last message. some of the things said, yes were true. BUT there are people like myself who work full time just to be broke. And I'm not one of those people who buys wants over needs. Some times people have to use old bed sheets and dollar-a-yard fabric. I am proud to say I am one of them. I have never yet said "oh that dress was so uncomfortable" or "ugh, another repair I have to make". If you do these things corectly, you wont be uncomfortable or have to make repairs all the time. I just got done making another dress for myself and my dad said "thats an old sheet?!?". Yes it was and it is THE most comfortable, best looking dress I have made. So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper fabric and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. if it's period (which cotton is) and it's comfortable and warm (my first dress and first event was made with cotton and I stayed way warm with 4 inches of snow on the ground with NO
                          > cloak) then wear it!
                          >
                          >Antonia
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >bronwynmgn@... wrote: In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                          >scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                          >
                          ><<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
                          >garment in Competition.>>
                          >
                          ><<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion for
                          >authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>
                          >
                          >Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it perturbs me.
                          >
                          >Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed to be
                          >educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
                          >
                          >I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find some of
                          >the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may well be
                          >needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if you can
                          >find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap fabrics
                          >myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
                          >period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford them and limit
                          >the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been a reason;
                          >I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?
                          >
                          >Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by sticking to
                          >the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way they did and
                          >why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them. I've learned
                          >that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period materials is
                          >FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping events with
                          >their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.
                          >
                          >We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over synthetics.
                          >When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put together,
                          >generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement. My wool and linen
                          >tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases - without needing
                          >repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and old
                          >bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come out and repair tears
                          >and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a comfort fabric,
                          >and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days that are 50
                          >degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress will keep you
                          >comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to run around
                          >in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak and
                          >shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood and wool socks and
                          >you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way. And
                          >certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your clothes, as I've seen at
                          >any number of events.
                          >
                          >It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval and
                          >renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern waterproof materials
                          >(and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat anyway), and they
                          >lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back and forth
                          >between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the weather. Why
                          >do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for that matter)
                          >weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong stuff (stuff
                          >that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and then complain
                          >when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.
                          >
                          >I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
                          >competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more practical for what
                          >we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made of cheap fabric
                          >off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about how
                          >uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need to make, when you
                          >can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?
                          >
                          >And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen goes in the
                          >washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron is my
                          >veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+ year old neighbors
                          >still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it really needs
                          >washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to dry.
                          >
                          >
                          >Brangwayna Morgan
                          >Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                          >Lancaster, PA
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          >
                          >---------------------------------
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >---------------------------------
                          >Do you Yahoo!?
                          >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          --
                          www.jackntracie.com
                          Live, and learn...


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • chemistbb3
                          Ya know, I do have to agree with this to a point. Yes the fabrics that were used in period do work very well for period clothes and they wear very well. They
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ya know, I do have to agree with this to a point.

                            Yes the fabrics that were used in period do work very well for period
                            clothes and they wear very well. They are suppose to since, in
                            period, that is what the folks had and it had to. And yes the SCA is
                            suppose to be educational, but isn't technique the more important
                            thing? If A&S was limited to total authenticity, I doubt that we
                            would see many entries. For example, how many costumers actually
                            work with period fabric that is made as it was in period, with
                            equipment made as it was in period?

                            OK, I can afford the "correct" fabric, even at $50 per yard, (it may
                            be the only fabric I buy for a couple of months though) but I am
                            still not above buying good cotton fabric when I can find it on
                            sale. Sorry, but I baulk at $10 a yard stuff (going price at my
                            local fabric store for linen, if it is available.). I search the
                            bargin tables, just like anyone else. Yes, I am going to bite the
                            bullet and pay the bucks for linen and wool soon, but I will still
                            make good ol' cotton tunics and hoods as well. They are comfortable,
                            wear well, and quite frankly suit the purpose. Also, I know a number
                            of folks that share The Dream that quite frankly have difficulty
                            scraping up enough to pay gas to go to events and have to do without
                            to pay gate. They have done marvelous things with bits and prices
                            from yard sales, and quite frankly won a Frugal Garb contest or two.

                            Yes, the period fabrics are good, but I would rather see my friends
                            at an event in bedsheets than not at all...

                            William
                            (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable
                            for garb?)

                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:
                            > In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                            > scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                            >
                            > <<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
                            > garment in Competition.>>
                            >
                            > <<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion
                            for
                            > authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>
                            >
                            > Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it
                            perturbs me.
                            >
                            > Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed
                            to be
                            > educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
                            >
                            > I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to
                            find some of
                            > the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may
                            well be
                            > needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if
                            you can
                            > find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used
                            cheap fabrics
                            > myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to
                            using only
                            > period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford
                            them and limit
                            > the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has
                            been a reason;
                            > I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?
                            >
                            > Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by
                            sticking to
                            > the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way
                            they did and
                            > why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them.
                            I've learned
                            > that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period
                            materials is
                            > FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping
                            events with
                            > their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.
                            >
                            > We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over
                            synthetics.
                            > When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put
                            together,
                            > generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement.
                            My wool and linen
                            > tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases -
                            without needing
                            > repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and
                            old
                            > bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come
                            out and repair tears
                            > and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a
                            comfort fabric,
                            > and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days
                            that are 50
                            > degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress
                            will keep you
                            > comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to
                            run around
                            > in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak
                            and
                            > shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood
                            and wool socks and
                            > you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way.
                            And
                            > certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your
                            clothes, as I've seen at
                            > any number of events.
                            >
                            > It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval
                            and
                            > renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern
                            waterproof materials
                            > (and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat
                            anyway), and they
                            > lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back
                            and forth
                            > between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the
                            weather. Why
                            > do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for
                            that matter)
                            > weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong
                            stuff (stuff
                            > that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and
                            then complain
                            > when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.
                            >
                            > I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
                            > competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more
                            practical for what
                            > we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made
                            of cheap fabric
                            > off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about
                            how
                            > uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need
                            to make, when you
                            > can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?
                            >
                            > And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen
                            goes in the
                            > washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron
                            is my
                            > veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+
                            year old neighbors
                            > still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it
                            really needs
                            > washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to
                            dry.
                            >
                            >
                            > Brangwayna Morgan
                            > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            > Lancaster, PA
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kirianna
                            (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable Goodwill or second hand stores! ~Kiri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable

                              Goodwill or second hand stores!

                              ~Kiri


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • tori T
                              As far as finding used bed sheets suitable, most of the time I use my old bed sheets (I haven t used many but from my old twin bed and now in a queen).
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                As far as finding used bed sheets suitable, most of the time I use my old bed sheets (I haven't used many but from my old twin bed and now in a queen). Sometimes I can find some at garage sales, but most of the time I would use the flat sheet cause not many people use them or really pay attention to them (most people I know let me refraise that). but not too often. Also you can find some at a nearby goodwill or anystore of the such. You could probably find some at an outlet store or any store like that with not much wrong with it that you can cut around.

                                Antonia





                                chemistbb3 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Ya know, I do have to agree with this to a point.

                                Yes the fabrics that were used in period do work very well for period
                                clothes and they wear very well. They are suppose to since, in
                                period, that is what the folks had and it had to. And yes the SCA is
                                suppose to be educational, but isn't technique the more important
                                thing? If A&S was limited to total authenticity, I doubt that we
                                would see many entries. For example, how many costumers actually
                                work with period fabric that is made as it was in period, with
                                equipment made as it was in period?

                                OK, I can afford the "correct" fabric, even at $50 per yard, (it may
                                be the only fabric I buy for a couple of months though) but I am
                                still not above buying good cotton fabric when I can find it on
                                sale. Sorry, but I baulk at $10 a yard stuff (going price at my
                                local fabric store for linen, if it is available.). I search the
                                bargin tables, just like anyone else. Yes, I am going to bite the
                                bullet and pay the bucks for linen and wool soon, but I will still
                                make good ol' cotton tunics and hoods as well. They are comfortable,
                                wear well, and quite frankly suit the purpose. Also, I know a number
                                of folks that share The Dream that quite frankly have difficulty
                                scraping up enough to pay gas to go to events and have to do without
                                to pay gate. They have done marvelous things with bits and prices
                                from yard sales, and quite frankly won a Frugal Garb contest or two.

                                Yes, the period fabrics are good, but I would rather see my friends
                                at an event in bedsheets than not at all...

                                William
                                (Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable
                                for garb?)

                                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:
                                > In a message dated 6/30/2004 2:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                > scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                >
                                > <<only worry about "periodness" of fabric if you're entering the
                                > garment in Competition.>>
                                >
                                > <<As long as you are not going to try to put this in a competion
                                for
                                > authentisity almost any fabric will do.>>
                                >
                                > Several people have made this comment in this thread, and it
                                perturbs me.
                                >
                                > Is not the SCA an "educational" organization? Are we not supposed
                                to be
                                > educating people about the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
                                >
                                > I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to
                                find some of
                                > the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may
                                well be
                                > needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if
                                you can
                                > find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used
                                cheap fabrics
                                > myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to
                                using only
                                > period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford
                                them and limit
                                > the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has
                                been a reason;
                                > I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?
                                >
                                > Because I have learned far more about life in the Middle Ages by
                                sticking to
                                > the period options. I've learned why they made clothing the way
                                they did and
                                > why they wore it the way they wore it and what it did for them.
                                I've learned
                                > that clothing made to period patterns using the correct period
                                materials is
                                > FAR more comfortable, long-wearing, and suited to our many camping
                                events with
                                > their varying weather than any modern fabric could be.
                                >
                                > We've already talked about the comfort of natural fibers over
                                synthetics.
                                > When you make it to proper period patterns, it's easier to put
                                together,
                                > generally uses less fabric, and works better for active movement.
                                My wool and linen
                                > tunics have lasted for many years - up to 10 in some cases -
                                without needing
                                > repairs at all; when I was wearing polycotton and cotton gauze and
                                old
                                > bedsheets I was constantly having to restitch seams that had come
                                out and repair tears
                                > and wear holes. For hot events, linen cannot be beaten as a
                                comfort fabric,
                                > and when it gets cold at night, or when you have a couple of days
                                that are 50
                                > degrees and raining, a good wool tunic over the linen underdress
                                will keep you
                                > comfortable and cozy warm and DRY for the most part. No need to
                                run around
                                > in wet, clingy polycotton or see through gauze, wrapped in a cloak
                                and
                                > shivering. Go about your business in a heavy wool tunic and hood
                                and wool socks and
                                > you'll be comfortable all day long, without the cloak in your way.
                                And
                                > certainly no need for plastic ponchos or trashbags over your
                                clothes, as I've seen at
                                > any number of events.
                                >
                                > It makes sense that it should work that way; after all, medieval
                                and
                                > renaissance people didn't have indoor climate control or modern
                                waterproof materials
                                > (and wool works better than a rubberized or plastic raincoat
                                anyway), and they
                                > lived far more in the weather than we do; most of us shuttle back
                                and forth
                                > between our houses, offices, and cars and hardly are out in the
                                weather. Why
                                > do we insist that they were always miserable in bad (or good, for
                                that matter)
                                > weather? Because we make our "medieval" clothes out of the wrong
                                stuff (stuff
                                > that was designed for use in climate-controlled conditions) and
                                then complain
                                > when it doesn't keep us comfortable when we're out in real weather.
                                >
                                > I don't encourage people to use period fabric because they can win
                                > competitions by using it. I encourage its use because it is more
                                practical for what
                                > we're doing in the long run. What good is having 10 outfits made
                                of cheap fabric
                                > off the dollar-a-yard table and always going home complaining about
                                how
                                > uncomfortable you were at the event and how many repairs you need
                                to make, when you
                                > can have two made of the correct fabrics and be comfortable?
                                >
                                > And no, I don't dry clean my linen and wool outfits. The linen
                                goes in the
                                > washer and dryer or hangs out to dry and the only thing I ever iron
                                is my
                                > veils; the wool gets aired out and brushed off (something my 80+
                                year old neighbors
                                > still do with their own wool coats, skirts and suits) unless it
                                really needs
                                > washed and then it goes in the washer in cold water and hangs to
                                dry.
                                >
                                >
                                > Brangwayna Morgan
                                > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                > Lancaster, PA
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                                ---------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scanewcomers/

                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                scanewcomers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                                ---------------------------------
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Katie Pleasance
                                Huzzah for William! That s the attitude we newbies need to hear. Some of you old-timers need to remember: Intimidated Newbies Won t Be SCA Newbies For Long --
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Huzzah for William! That's the attitude we newbies need to hear.

                                  Some of you old-timers need to remember: Intimidated Newbies Won't Be SCA
                                  Newbies For Long -- They Will Be Doing Something Other Than SCA.

                                  Katie


                                  >Yes, the period fabrics are good, but I would rather see my friends
                                  >at an event in bedsheets than not at all...
                                  >William
                                  >(Who wonders where people are finding used sheets that are suitable
                                  >for garb?)
                                • Susan Farmer
                                  And on the topic of period fabrics ... I thought the Authenticity Fabric Note was a tad over the top and I ve played in the SCA on and off since there were
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    And on the topic of "period fabrics ..."

                                    I thought the Authenticity Fabric Note was a tad over the top and
                                    I've played in the SCA on and off since there were only 4 kingdoms.

                                    The purpose of this particular group is to **encourage** newcomers,
                                    not *discourage* them.

                                    Jerusha in Meridies
                                  • Tirloch O'Riordain
                                    ... While I agree with your sentiment in spirit (I always think it a good thing to promote the authentic experience and to promote education), I do think that
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      bronwynmgn@... wrote:

                                      >
                                      > I understand full well that it can be difficult and expensive to find
                                      > some of
                                      > the fabrics used in period for garments, and that substitutions may
                                      > well be
                                      > needed at times (silk velvet for Renaissance stuff, for example; if
                                      > you can
                                      > find it, it's about $50/yard if you're really lucky). I've used cheap
                                      > fabrics
                                      > myself in my early years in the SCA, but I am now a convert to using only
                                      > period-correct fabrics, even if I have to scrimp and save to afford
                                      > them and limit
                                      > the number of garments I have. Competition is not and never has been
                                      > a reason;
                                      > I don't do competitions, ever. So, why?


                                      While I agree with your sentiment in spirit (I always think it a good
                                      thing to promote the authentic experience and to promote education), I
                                      do think that you are missing certain realities. You stated that you
                                      used cheap fabrics in your early years but now...

                                      What you are missing in this logic is that these people are in their
                                      early years, many of them are making a first attempt at garb. They are
                                      making now the same decisions that you made years ago. Some of them will
                                      find us a wonderful experience, others may not stick around. Your
                                      decision to switch to more period and expensive clothing is a decision
                                      made about a known future. You know that you will use these clothes. You
                                      know that you are going to be around in a year or two. While I hope that
                                      new people will find our group worthy of their spare time, that may not
                                      be a decision that they have made yet. That is the reason why our
                                      corpora states that the only requirement is that you make an 'attempt"
                                      at pre-seveteenth century clothing. We do not want to restrict them. We
                                      want them to come and to learn and to play. Maybe someday they will
                                      convert as you did, maybe they will not. There are many people for whom
                                      the SCA has become their premiere hobby, and they apply much of their
                                      free time and budget to it. There are many others however for whom it is
                                      a minor hobby, and they do not wish to dedicate much time or money to
                                      it. We have to understand this, and not apply our views to those people,
                                      but rather assist them at any level that they wish to commit to.

                                      Your Servant,

                                      Tirloch
                                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                        <<So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper fabric
                                        and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. >>

                                        I was not ragging on people who have to use cheap fabric if they want garb at
                                        all, nor on people who choose to use cheap fabric because they want to spend
                                        their money on other things, like period musical instruments, armor, or a
                                        flat-screen TV - or even the rent on their apartment or food for their kids. Nor
                                        did I say it was "wrong" to use cheap fabrics - I said I found it better to
                                        use period ones. Saying one thing is better does not mean the other thing is
                                        "wrong". I'm not rolling in money, contrary to your opinion - one paycheck a
                                        month pays my mortgage, and all but about $200 of the other one goes to pay
                                        other bills. Most of that $200 a month goes for gas, food, mundane clothes (which
                                        I wear until they fall apart, regardless of changing fashions), and taking
                                        care of my cats. I still choose to use some of that money, spent wisely, to
                                        buy period fabrics for my garb.

                                        I was responding to the people who insist that the only reason to consider
                                        using period fabrics is if you want to win competitions. I gave a variety of
                                        reasons why I have found saving my money for period fabrics to be more practical
                                        and a better use of the money I do have. Your mileage may vary, of course,
                                        and you are certainly free to choose to spend your money where you will, and to
                                        wear what you like. I simply tried to present an alternative and far more
                                        practical argument to competitions as a reason to use period fabrics, and got
                                        attacked for it.


                                        Brangwayna Morgan
                                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                        Lancaster, PA


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • chemistbb3
                                        Ahhhhh, Then what we had here was a failya to communicate... Now your earlier post makes better sense to me! I have always liked the sound advice you have
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ahhhhh,
                                          Then what we had here was a failya to communicate...

                                          Now your earlier post makes better sense to me!

                                          I have always liked the sound advice you have always given and the
                                          way your earlier post read to me was a bit of a shock. I'M glad that
                                          is cleared up to me!

                                          Williamk

                                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:
                                          > In a message dated 7/1/2004 3:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                          > scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                          >
                                          > <<So dont go ragging on people and saying it's wrong to use cheeper
                                          fabric
                                          > and old sheets just because we cant all have money like you. >>
                                          >
                                          > I was not ragging on people who have to use cheap fabric if they
                                          want garb at
                                          > all, nor on people who choose to use cheap fabric because they want
                                          to spend
                                          > their money on other things, like period musical instruments,
                                          armor, or a
                                          > flat-screen TV - or even the rent on their apartment or food for
                                          their kids. Nor
                                          > did I say it was "wrong" to use cheap fabrics - I said I found it
                                          better to
                                          > use period ones. Saying one thing is better does not mean the
                                          other thing is
                                          > "wrong". I'm not rolling in money, contrary to your opinion - one
                                          paycheck a
                                          > month pays my mortgage, and all but about $200 of the other one
                                          goes to pay
                                          > other bills. Most of that $200 a month goes for gas, food, mundane
                                          clothes (which
                                          > I wear until they fall apart, regardless of changing fashions), and
                                          taking
                                          > care of my cats. I still choose to use some of that money, spent
                                          wisely, to
                                          > buy period fabrics for my garb.
                                          >
                                          > I was responding to the people who insist that the only reason to
                                          consider
                                          > using period fabrics is if you want to win competitions. I gave a
                                          variety of
                                          > reasons why I have found saving my money for period fabrics to be
                                          more practical
                                          > and a better use of the money I do have. Your mileage may vary, of
                                          course,
                                          > and you are certainly free to choose to spend your money where you
                                          will, and to
                                          > wear what you like. I simply tried to present an alternative and
                                          far more
                                          > practical argument to competitions as a reason to use period
                                          fabrics, and got
                                          > attacked for it.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Brangwayna Morgan
                                          > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                          > Lancaster, PA
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mackenzie
                                          ... The way you guys are talking, you make it sound as if cotton wasn t period! Cotton is perfectly period, especially if you re from the Orient, Middle East,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 1, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Kirianna <kitani@c...> wrote:
                                            > I agree....
                                            >
                                            > And, you can still learn about life in the Middle Ages while wearing
                                            > cotton too!


                                            The way you guys are talking, you make it sound as if cotton wasn't
                                            period! Cotton is perfectly period, especially if you're from the
                                            Orient, Middle East, Byzantium, Italy, or Egypt. It was available in
                                            all of those areas for anyone of merchant class or higher. Lower
                                            classes than that in Egypt, slightly east of Middle East, and Orient.
                                            The nobility (as long as they weren't very low, poor nobility) could
                                            afford it in France. England's about the only place where you would
                                            need a royal connection to own cotton (the S&H was too high! LOL).

                                            I suggest you guys take a visit over to SCA_Normans. Kirsten has tons
                                            of information on linen and wool and her arguments about how cotton is
                                            very period (Kirsten is a merchant with plenty of experience).
                                          • Terrie B.
                                            Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied! I do value your
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 3, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I
                                              my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied!
                                              I do value your input!


                                              Not quite scared away,

                                              T
                                            • Tirloch O'Riordain
                                              ... Greetings, You stirred nothing up dear Lady... you but asked a simple question. As in all large organizations, occasionally different subjects will strike
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 3, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Terrie B. wrote:

                                                > Oh dear. I seemed to have stirred up the pot. I truly apologize if I
                                                > my question has caused any disturbances. My thanks to all who replied!
                                                > I do value your input!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Not quite scared away,
                                                >
                                                > T


                                                Greetings,

                                                You stirred nothing up dear Lady... you but asked a simple question.
                                                As in all large organizations, occasionally different subjects will
                                                strike cords with certain people, which often brings out more of an
                                                emotional response than they may wish. I am sad that such a discussion
                                                would take place on this list, but please take no fault of it upon
                                                yourself. If nothing else, you were given a good indicator of the many
                                                different views people have about costuming in the SCA, and therefore
                                                you have a good starting point from which to make up your own mind on
                                                what appeals to you.

                                                I hope that you find the SCA to be a rewarding pastime, as so many of us
                                                have.

                                                Your Servant,

                                                Tirloch
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.