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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Ahhhh, more questions!

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  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:32:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... One thing to remember is that, while there certainly were pirates in the Middle Ages and
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 9, 2003
      In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:32:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

      > Plus I don't know how this whole early Tudor upper class thing is
      > going to mesh with the whole pirate wench thing . . . Plus there's a
      > big part of me that likes to be laced into a super tight bodice with
      > a low cut chemise and show off a lot of cleavage . . . definitely not
      > really the style for anyone except the occasional pirate wench I'd
      > imagine . . .
      >
      > Anyway, this long and probably irritating post is a plea for help:
      > Anyone who's doing the pirate thing, anyone with early Tudor
      > references they could point me towards, anyone with some advice..

      One thing to remember is that, while there certainly were pirates in the
      Middle Ages and Renaissance, the heyday of what people commonly think of when
      they think of pirates is actually the late 17 and 18th centuries, well
      outside the SCA time period. For a good reference for this, look here:
      <A HREF="http://www.skraeling.sca.org/xiphias/newsletter/V4-1-pirate.html">http://www.skraeling.sca.org/xiphias/newsletter/V4-1-pirate.html</A>

      And really, the whole wench thing with the bodice and low cleavage, while
      exceedingly common in the SCA (sometimes on people who really have no
      business wearing anything like that) cannot be traced to a known period
      style. For one thing, bodices like that are the equivalent of a modern bra
      or girdle - a foundation garment, not an outer garment. While it may look
      like a Tudor women's "bodice" is doing the shaping, it isn't; it's the corset
      underneath. The bodice is simply cut to tightly fit over the corset.

      Brangwayna Morgan


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
      In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:32:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Be careful with Norris. The pictures in his books are redrawings of period images, and he s
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 9, 2003
        In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:32:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

        > Have you tried the book by Herbert Norris, Tudor Costume and Fashion, ISBN -
        > 0486298450 (sorry, I work in a bookstore).

        Be careful with Norris. The pictures in his books are redrawings of period
        images, and he's very inconsistent in how accurately he reproduces the period
        image he's using as an example. He also does not identify the image his
        drawings are based on, so it can be very difficult to track down his
        inspiration and find out whether or not he got that one close or if it is
        totally off base. Also, his conjectural cutting diagrams are just that - and
        I don't think the man knew how to sew, so the diagrams just don't work when
        you actually try it with fabric. His take on the bliaut in his earlier
        period book is entirely inaccurate, for example; when you look at existing
        statuary of people wearing bliauts, what he shows doesn't really exist.

        I believe Janet Arnold did a book on this time period in her Patterns of
        Fashion series. Her books are entirely based off of existing clothing, with
        pictures and cutting diagrams. My husband has the one that goes from
        1560-1620, but if I remember correctly, you were looking for a bit earlier,
        about 1540, right?

        Brangwayna Morgan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • shmi85
        Yes, I was looking for clothing around the 1540s. But your mention of Arnold s work was amusing; about six months ago, I was browsing Amazon and found this
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 9, 2003
          Yes, I was looking for clothing around the 1540s. But your mention of
          Arnold's work was amusing; about six months ago, I was browsing
          Amazon and found this book that looked incredibly interesting, except
          that it was 100 dollars or so. I thought I bookmarked it, but I went
          through my bookmarks recently, and couldn't find it for the life of
          me . . . all I could remember was that the cover was black with
          sketches of dress in white . . . lo and behold, it's the arnold 1560-
          1620 book! So thanks for that :)

          Also, your previous comment about piracy's heyday being in the 17th
          and 18th century is, of course, perfectly true, but there was
          significant pirate activity in the 1500s also, perhaps culminating
          with Elizabeth I's commissioning of Sir Francis Drake in the 1580s or
          thereabouts. But there is also documented proof of female pirates in
          in the first half of the 1500s, first Grace O'Malley, an Irish pirate
          who remained active until well into her 60s (and pirated from about
          1540-80) and a Lady Mary Killigrew who pirated on the Atlantic and
          was active in the 1540s and 50s.

          Also, thank you to everyone who answered my original posts first
          about being nervous and then about being a pirate! I went to the
          meeting on Friday night (with my cookies in a christmas tin =P) and
          it went smashingly. I really loved the people I met and the entire
          atmosphere of the meeting and everything. It was one of the very few
          things I've done lately that I've looked back on fondly and wanted to
          go back to: I still think about a guy who does heavy fighting and
          kept on trying to sword fight with the knitting needles while someone
          tried to teach him how to knit, and the joke about Viagra stew at an
          event in the coming September and being told about the Baron Wars
          being back at the FORT (in all capitals) and how people brought siege
          engines and everything . . . :D

          I also have some questions about heraldry: Could someone check the
          documentation of the names Elisabeth, Elisabet and Elissa in the
          early 1500s for me in the Withycombe book? Maybe I'm just dumb, but I
          couldn't find it at my local library, altho I found it on amazon.
          Also, how is it possible to find out if a name, device or badge
          conflict with already registered names? I looked through sca.org
          some, but I couldn't find anything that seemed to work; the only
          search type things that I found weren't working. Any links?

          Thanks!
          ~elisa until further notice~


          > I believe Janet Arnold did a book on this time period in her
          Patterns of
          > Fashion series. Her books are entirely based off of existing
          clothing, with
          > pictures and cutting diagrams. My husband has the one that goes
          from
          > 1560-1620, but if I remember correctly, you were looking for a bit
          earlier,
          > about 1540, right?
          >
          > Brangwayna Morgan
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
          ... As one who has been to Baron Wars every year (except one) that it s been held, I can tell you with certainty that this is a Very Good Thing. :-) Did they
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
            On Sunday 09 March 2003 22:56, shmi85 wrote:
            > and being told about the Baron Wars
            > being back at the FORT (in all capitals)

            As one who has been to Baron Wars every year (except one) that it's been
            held, I can tell you with certainty that this is a Very Good Thing. :-)

            Did they tell you how we all learned to swim and mud wrestle last year?

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
            fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
          • Wenyeva atte Grene
            ... I can do this but it will have to be later this evening. If you send me a private e-mail to remind me I will do it. (I m on digest of this list, so I don t
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
              At 11:08 AM +0000 3/10/03, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              >I also have some questions about heraldry: Could someone check the
              >documentation of the names Elisabeth, Elisabet and Elissa in the
              >early 1500s for me in the Withycombe book?

              I can do this but it will have to be later this evening. If you send
              me a private e-mail to remind me I will do it. (I'm on digest of this
              list, so I don't always get list messages quickly, so private mail
              reaches me faster.)

              >Maybe I'm just dumb, but I
              >couldn't find it at my local library, altho I found it on amazon.

              It's kind of hard to find. It is out of print.

              >Also, how is it possible to find out if a name, device or badge
              >conflict with already registered names? I looked through sca.org
              >some, but I couldn't find anything that seemed to work; the only
              >search type things that I found weren't working. Any links?

              The search forms are here:
              http://www.farreaches.org/heraldry/OandA/

              It takes a little practice. :) But it is fun to search even if you're
              not sure yet exactly what constitutes a conflict.

              I can send some other interesting heraldry links if you like; just let me know.

              --
              Wenyeva atte grene, in An Tir
            • shmi85
              ... year? ... No, they focused on trying to scare the shit out of me about the siege weapons and how the planners want to like, bombard real people with
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
                >
                > Did they tell you how we all learned to swim and mud wrestle last
                year?
                >
                > Justin


                No, they focused on trying to scare the shit out of me about the
                siege weapons and how the planners want to like, bombard real people
                with catapults this year or something. It sounded nuts =P

                ~elisa~
              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                ... Rest assured, SCA rules don t allow using catapults to throw people across the event site. There are cases where catapults do bombard real people, but the
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
                  On Monday 10 March 2003 18:04, shmi85 wrote:
                  > No, they focused on trying to scare the shit out of me about the
                  > siege weapons and how the planners want to like, bombard real people
                  > with catapults this year or something. It sounded nuts =P

                  Rest assured, SCA rules don't allow using catapults to throw people across
                  the event site.

                  There are cases where catapults do bombard real people, but the throw very
                  soft (foam) projectiles and they are only aimed at the large battles full of
                  people wearing nice, protective armor. Innocent civilians are not considered
                  legitimate targets. :-)

                  The worst thing that's likely to happen from one of our catapults is that a
                  fighter, who has patiently worked his or her way from the back of the battle
                  line up toward the front, eagerly anticipating the chance to swing a sword
                  at the enemy, gets bonked on the head with a foam rubber "rock" and has to
                  go back to the Resurrection Point without getting a chance to even strike a
                  blow. It's aggrevating but not especially dangerous.

                  (In my first melee battle at Baron Wars a few years ago, this actually did
                  happen to me, except it was a combat arrow -- made of a tennis ball stuck to
                  the end of a plastic golf tube -- that "killed" me moments before I would have
                  been on the front line in the bridge battle. Aaaaaack!)

                  In short, they were giving you the business. :-)

                  By the way, please *do* stop by and introduce yourself at the Erevnite Asteron
                  household encampment at Baron Wars. That goes for anyone else on this list who
                  makes it to this wonderful event. Baron Wars happens in a real fortress (!)
                  and is one of the coolest events in the Middle Kingdom. It's a weekend not
                  to be missed! If you can't find Erevnite Asteron, ask someone on event staff
                  to tell you where "Justin's camp" is. Since I'm in charge of the first aid
                  (Chirurgeonate) for this event, they'll probably know where to find me.

                  Justin

                  P.S. I'm the Chirurgeon-In-Charge (CIC) of Baron Wars this year, so if they
                  do hurt you, I have to do the paperwork on it after I bandage you up. That
                  means that I have a very strong vested interest in not having you bonked on
                  the head with a rock. Too darned much paperwork, that! [GRIN]

                  P.P.S. There are no real rocks tossed by catapults. If there were, I couldn't
                  tell you about them. If I did, you'd think I was crazy and wouldn't believe
                  me. If you did believe me, then I'd have to shoot you because SCA rules do not
                  allow crazy people to be hit by top-secret rocks that don't exist! [GRIN AGAIN]

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
                  fesswise reversed sable.

                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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