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Re: Ren Fairers vs. Scadians

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  • Elise La Plante
    Elizabeth, your observation is pretty keen...it wasn t until I actually got to know a couple Scadians personally (as opposed to reading about the local shire
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 5, 2003
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      Elizabeth, your observation is pretty keen...it wasn't until I
      actually got to know a couple Scadians personally (as opposed to
      reading about the local shire in the internet) that I understood the
      main difference between Scadians and Festers. *grin* And the
      difference is this:

      SCA activities are for the people.
      Fest/Faire activities are for the money.

      That sounds harsh...but think about it. Honors like "Pelican"
      and "Laurel" are awarded to those who have given generously of
      themselves in order that others may learn new skills or acquire
      knowledge. The SCA awards such self-giving and encourages everyone
      involved to continuously better themselves and learn more...and for
      what? For the pure pleasure it brings -- as hedonistic as that may
      sound. Take, for example, a Scadian who loves black-smithing. He
      will teach you everything he knows if you want him to, simply because
      he loves the hobby and wants everyone else to appreciate it. He will
      most likely give you personal attention in the hobby if you want it.

      Now consider the Fest/Faire. Employees may or may not know much
      about the Middle Ages or Renassiace period, and they may or may not
      like the job they have at the Fest/Faire...either way, they are being
      paid to make you listen to them. And in the end, they might not have
      the time or inclination to give you personal attention, as in the
      black-smithing example.

      I know the Minnesota Renaissance Festival in particular requires its
      employees to attend Academy in order to learn improvisation, accents,
      and other skills which would help them in their job at the Fest.
      These, like SCA activities, add to a person's accomplishments and
      help to better themselves. Unlike the SCA, however, these Fest/Faire
      activites are primarily to help the employees Entertain, Engage, and
      Earn (Earn money, that is).

      Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fest! I never miss it! But the intention
      and purpose of learning activites (and the incentive behind those who
      teach them) are the main differences between Scadians and Festers.

      In service to the dream,
      Elise La Plante



      > I can also go up to the person and ask him/her to teach me
      > how to sew whatever it is that's being made, I can go up to the
      > bard afterwards and ask for lessons, I can talk to *anyone* about
      > learning things because the whole original mission of SCA was
      > education!

      > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't
      > even gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I
      > just boggled at what she said considering the usually close
      > relationship between ren faires and SCA . . .
      >
      > ~elizabeth campden~
    • megrimulf
      Elizabeth, First let me say that I ve been directly or indirectly involved in Faires for around ten years, and SCA for five. I ve heard a number of different
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
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        Elizabeth,

        First let me say that I've been directly or indirectly involved in
        Faires for around ten years, and SCA for five. I've heard a number
        of different reasons why people on one side don't like the other, and
        most of the time it's sheer ignorance; in other words, if all the
        facts are known, their reasons don't hold water. The primary cause
        of this is, in my opinion, that Renaissance/Medieval/Fantasy faires
        and the SCA have fundamentally different purposes for existing. If
        that basic concept is understood, that your goals are not the same as
        my goals, (being hypothetical "your" and "my," rather than literally
        meaning Elizabeth and me), I think a lot of those kinds of things
        would simply go away.

        Now, I should point out that, while I've heard quite a number of
        these kinds of conflicts, they are, in the grand scheme of things,
        actually quite rare. That is to say, only a small percentage of
        SCAdians and Rennies ever actually seem to have such conflicts. For
        one thing, far more Rennies than you'd think have never even _heard_
        of the SCA. To use myself as an example, I was involved in Faire for
        more than five years before I ever discovered the existence of the
        SCA. And it's been my experience that an awful lot of SCAdians have
        never been to faire, either.

        All of that having been said, I will say that I've heard more Rennies
        who don't like SCA than the other way 'round. And one thing I've
        heard from them, and I've seen it happen and agree with them, is that
        some SCA people have a snobbish attitude toward faire. They will
        come to faire, spend the day there, eat the food, watch the shows,
        and so on, and then criticize faire for "doing it wrong." These
        would be the same types we would call "authenticity police." A very
        tiny percentage, to be sure, but vocal enough to get noticed and turn
        some faire-folk off to the SCA.

        Both of these activities are a great deal of fun to be involved in,
        and have the potential to be mutually beneficial to one another.
        Can't we all just get along? ;)

        Grímólfr

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Shmi Skywalker" <shmi85@y...>
        wrote:
        > This isn't a question per se, more like a general comment that I'm
        > hoping to get some responses from. I thought of this in response to
        > one of Justin's responses to the guy who's first contact with SCA
        was
        > the murderer in 91.
        >
        > Last Saturday, I went to this party and a few of my friends who
        work
        > at the michigan ren faire were also there. I was nervous about
        diving
        > into SCA alone, so I asked them if they wanted to come with me, at
        > least to the first meeting this friday. The response I got was
        > incredible. First of all, as employees at a ren faire, I pretty
        > expected them to know about SCA. There are large numbers of people
        > who are in SCA and who work at faires or attend religiously, a lot
        of
        > catalogs or merchants at faires will have 'SCA approved' or
        certified
        > or whatever it is, as a stamp of authenticity, etc etc. I could go
        > on, but I probably don't need to. So, from these two girls who work
        > at faire, I got totally slammed for wanting to be involved in
        > SCA. "Let me tell you, they're just a bunch of people who arent
        > interactive at all, they just have a few people doing stuff and
        > everyone else watches and doesnt do anything at all. if you want to
        > do stuff like that, audition for festival, it's so much better!"
        >
        > i had and still have SO MANY problems with what she said.
        >
        > 1. neither of them have been involved in SCA at all
        >
        > 2. i go to the michigan ren faire quite often and I have NEVER been
        > approached by one of the people who work there, i.e. making it an
        > interactive experience. If anything, in my experience, ren faires
        are
        > sort of like standing on stage while a play is going on. Sure,
        you're
        > right there and everything, but it's rare that any of the actors
        > engage you in conversation as part of the play. SCA, on the other
        > hand, is a totally interactive experience. In many ways, people are
        > almost forced to be more than spectators. Of course, you can talk
        to
        > who you want, and participate in what you want, but at events, garb
        > is required and no "spectators" are allowed, according to the SCA
        > website.
        >
        > 3. obviously, when she mentioned how a few people do stuff and
        > everyone else watches, she was probably talking about combat. But
        > anyone over the age of 18 is allowed to try and become certified in
        > combat, and even that certification doesnt mean you're *good*, it
        > just means you wont hurt other people. As opposed to at faire,
        where
        > there are two guys who come in to joust . . . everyone gets to
        > watch . . . and the joust is obviously pre-arranged, diametrically
        > opposite to the way combat in SCA is run. and, beyond all that, she
        > was totally ignoring the *rest* of SCA. I personally don't have a
        lot
        > of interest in becoming combat certified. I have interests in
        > costuming and bardic arts and some fiber arts . . . it's all A&S
        > stuff. And do I have to sit there and watch while someone sews? Do
        I
        > have to sit there and watch someone recite an epic? I can if I
        *want*
        > to, but I can also go up to the person and ask him/her to teach me
        > how to sew whatever it is that's being made, I can go up to the
        bard
        > afterwards and ask for lessons, I can talk to *anyone* about
        learning
        > things because the whole original mission of SCA was education!
        >
        > ...
        >
        > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't
        even
        > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
        > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
        > between ren faires and SCA . . .
        >
        > ~elizabeth campden~
        > (w00t, i picked a surname that i like..)
      • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
        ... Well, all I can say is, You go, girl!!! I am *really* surprised that they reacted as they did. The Rennies that I ve met have usually been quite cordial
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
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          On Wednesday 05 March 2003 22:29, Shmi Skywalker wrote:
          > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't even
          > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
          > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
          > between ren faires and SCA . . .

          Well, all I can say is, "You go, girl!!!"

          I am *really* surprised that they reacted as they did. The Rennies that I've
          met have usually been quite cordial to the SCA. They have their game, we have
          our game, and the world is big enough for both. They are a business, we are
          hobbiests. There's actually a fair number of people who work Ren and play in
          the SCA. And lots of SCAdians go to Ren Faires for fun sometimes.

          These folks need to switch to decaf coffee. :-\

          Justin

          --
          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
          Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
          Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
          fesswise reversed sable.

          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
        • Mickey Loft
          Hi all, Well I have been going to Ren Faires for a number of years. To the level that my husband and I are frequently mistaken for players by customers and
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
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            Hi all,

            Well I have been going to Ren Faires for a number of years. To the level
            that my husband and I are frequently mistaken for players by customers and
            players alike. We know the directions to the privies and to the stages. We
            even tend to know where the different events are and when even. It is quite
            humerious even.

            We were very uninterested in becoming part of the play though. It was not
            really our style to be characters we did not pick. Anyway. I have noticed a
            distinct attitude about the SCA from the faire folks and the other way
            around. It is humourus sometimes, and sad other times.

            Most of the time it is just two groups that have misunderstood each other
            over the last few years. We are both so very much alike.

            I am sorry your friend has a bad impression of the SCA.

            Marressa Jonsdottir

            _________________________________________________________________
            Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/6/2003 7:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What a lot of people know about the SCA at RenFaires and such is what they ve been told by
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 9, 2003
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              In a message dated 3/6/2003 7:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

              > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't even
              > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
              > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
              > between ren faires and SCA . . .

              What a "lot of people know" about the SCA at RenFaires and such is what
              they've been told by other people who were told by other people who were told
              by someone who spent 10 minutes at an event and decided they didn't like it
              because it wasn't what they were used to.
              I ran a demo at a miniature wargamers convention this weekend, and ran into
              two diametrically opposed preconceived opinions of the SCA within 24 hours.
              The guy who asked us to do the demo said some of his people had told him the
              SCA wouldn't be authentic enough for what they wanted. And one of our
              Laurels was told to be careful, because the SCA was there and they would be
              nitpicking about her costume not being authentic enough.

              I've heard that all Civ War reenactors are hardcore down to having the
              correct thread count in each fabric of their uniform and only allowing people
              to have very specific roles (like women can't do anything but US Sanitary
              Commision or balls). But the Civ War reenactors I know (who also do SCA)
              include a woman who tucks her very long braid down the back of her jacket
              while portraying an infantryman. I've also heard that all Civ War reenactors
              think the SCA is a joke - but that certainly didn't describe the 10 or so
              that we talked at length with this weekend.

              Brangwayna Morgan

              >
              > ~elizabeth campden~

              I love the name. There is a lady in my shire whose name is Elizabeth
              Spynnere.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
              ... Wouldn t describe the two or three who live near here, who play in both groups depending on their whims, either. Adults are mature enough to realize that
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
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                On Sunday 09 March 2003 20:39, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                > I've also heard that all Civ War reenactors
                > think the SCA is a joke - but that certainly didn't describe the 10 or so
                > that we talked at length with this weekend.

                Wouldn't describe the two or three who live near here, who play in both
                groups depending on their whims, either.

                Adults are mature enough to realize that each club has different rules and
                that it's okay to choose the one(s) you want to join, without putting down
                the others because they're not the same. Too bad there are still people
                out there who are adults only in the chronological sense.

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
                fesswise reversed sable.

                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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