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Ren Fairers vs. Scadians

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  • Shmi Skywalker
    This isn t a question per se, more like a general comment that I m hoping to get some responses from. I thought of this in response to one of Justin s
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 5, 2003
      This isn't a question per se, more like a general comment that I'm
      hoping to get some responses from. I thought of this in response to
      one of Justin's responses to the guy who's first contact with SCA was
      the murderer in 91.

      Last Saturday, I went to this party and a few of my friends who work
      at the michigan ren faire were also there. I was nervous about diving
      into SCA alone, so I asked them if they wanted to come with me, at
      least to the first meeting this friday. The response I got was
      incredible. First of all, as employees at a ren faire, I pretty
      expected them to know about SCA. There are large numbers of people
      who are in SCA and who work at faires or attend religiously, a lot of
      catalogs or merchants at faires will have 'SCA approved' or certified
      or whatever it is, as a stamp of authenticity, etc etc. I could go
      on, but I probably don't need to. So, from these two girls who work
      at faire, I got totally slammed for wanting to be involved in
      SCA. "Let me tell you, they're just a bunch of people who arent
      interactive at all, they just have a few people doing stuff and
      everyone else watches and doesnt do anything at all. if you want to
      do stuff like that, audition for festival, it's so much better!"

      i had and still have SO MANY problems with what she said.

      1. neither of them have been involved in SCA at all

      2. i go to the michigan ren faire quite often and I have NEVER been
      approached by one of the people who work there, i.e. making it an
      interactive experience. If anything, in my experience, ren faires are
      sort of like standing on stage while a play is going on. Sure, you're
      right there and everything, but it's rare that any of the actors
      engage you in conversation as part of the play. SCA, on the other
      hand, is a totally interactive experience. In many ways, people are
      almost forced to be more than spectators. Of course, you can talk to
      who you want, and participate in what you want, but at events, garb
      is required and no "spectators" are allowed, according to the SCA
      website.

      3. obviously, when she mentioned how a few people do stuff and
      everyone else watches, she was probably talking about combat. But
      anyone over the age of 18 is allowed to try and become certified in
      combat, and even that certification doesnt mean you're *good*, it
      just means you wont hurt other people. As opposed to at faire, where
      there are two guys who come in to joust . . . everyone gets to
      watch . . . and the joust is obviously pre-arranged, diametrically
      opposite to the way combat in SCA is run. and, beyond all that, she
      was totally ignoring the *rest* of SCA. I personally don't have a lot
      of interest in becoming combat certified. I have interests in
      costuming and bardic arts and some fiber arts . . . it's all A&S
      stuff. And do I have to sit there and watch while someone sews? Do I
      have to sit there and watch someone recite an epic? I can if I *want*
      to, but I can also go up to the person and ask him/her to teach me
      how to sew whatever it is that's being made, I can go up to the bard
      afterwards and ask for lessons, I can talk to *anyone* about learning
      things because the whole original mission of SCA was education!

      ...

      It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't even
      gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
      boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
      between ren faires and SCA . . .

      ~elizabeth campden~
      (w00t, i picked a surname that i like..)
    • Elise La Plante
      Elizabeth, your observation is pretty keen...it wasn t until I actually got to know a couple Scadians personally (as opposed to reading about the local shire
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 5, 2003
        Elizabeth, your observation is pretty keen...it wasn't until I
        actually got to know a couple Scadians personally (as opposed to
        reading about the local shire in the internet) that I understood the
        main difference between Scadians and Festers. *grin* And the
        difference is this:

        SCA activities are for the people.
        Fest/Faire activities are for the money.

        That sounds harsh...but think about it. Honors like "Pelican"
        and "Laurel" are awarded to those who have given generously of
        themselves in order that others may learn new skills or acquire
        knowledge. The SCA awards such self-giving and encourages everyone
        involved to continuously better themselves and learn more...and for
        what? For the pure pleasure it brings -- as hedonistic as that may
        sound. Take, for example, a Scadian who loves black-smithing. He
        will teach you everything he knows if you want him to, simply because
        he loves the hobby and wants everyone else to appreciate it. He will
        most likely give you personal attention in the hobby if you want it.

        Now consider the Fest/Faire. Employees may or may not know much
        about the Middle Ages or Renassiace period, and they may or may not
        like the job they have at the Fest/Faire...either way, they are being
        paid to make you listen to them. And in the end, they might not have
        the time or inclination to give you personal attention, as in the
        black-smithing example.

        I know the Minnesota Renaissance Festival in particular requires its
        employees to attend Academy in order to learn improvisation, accents,
        and other skills which would help them in their job at the Fest.
        These, like SCA activities, add to a person's accomplishments and
        help to better themselves. Unlike the SCA, however, these Fest/Faire
        activites are primarily to help the employees Entertain, Engage, and
        Earn (Earn money, that is).

        Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fest! I never miss it! But the intention
        and purpose of learning activites (and the incentive behind those who
        teach them) are the main differences between Scadians and Festers.

        In service to the dream,
        Elise La Plante



        > I can also go up to the person and ask him/her to teach me
        > how to sew whatever it is that's being made, I can go up to the
        > bard afterwards and ask for lessons, I can talk to *anyone* about
        > learning things because the whole original mission of SCA was
        > education!

        > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't
        > even gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I
        > just boggled at what she said considering the usually close
        > relationship between ren faires and SCA . . .
        >
        > ~elizabeth campden~
      • megrimulf
        Elizabeth, First let me say that I ve been directly or indirectly involved in Faires for around ten years, and SCA for five. I ve heard a number of different
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
          Elizabeth,

          First let me say that I've been directly or indirectly involved in
          Faires for around ten years, and SCA for five. I've heard a number
          of different reasons why people on one side don't like the other, and
          most of the time it's sheer ignorance; in other words, if all the
          facts are known, their reasons don't hold water. The primary cause
          of this is, in my opinion, that Renaissance/Medieval/Fantasy faires
          and the SCA have fundamentally different purposes for existing. If
          that basic concept is understood, that your goals are not the same as
          my goals, (being hypothetical "your" and "my," rather than literally
          meaning Elizabeth and me), I think a lot of those kinds of things
          would simply go away.

          Now, I should point out that, while I've heard quite a number of
          these kinds of conflicts, they are, in the grand scheme of things,
          actually quite rare. That is to say, only a small percentage of
          SCAdians and Rennies ever actually seem to have such conflicts. For
          one thing, far more Rennies than you'd think have never even _heard_
          of the SCA. To use myself as an example, I was involved in Faire for
          more than five years before I ever discovered the existence of the
          SCA. And it's been my experience that an awful lot of SCAdians have
          never been to faire, either.

          All of that having been said, I will say that I've heard more Rennies
          who don't like SCA than the other way 'round. And one thing I've
          heard from them, and I've seen it happen and agree with them, is that
          some SCA people have a snobbish attitude toward faire. They will
          come to faire, spend the day there, eat the food, watch the shows,
          and so on, and then criticize faire for "doing it wrong." These
          would be the same types we would call "authenticity police." A very
          tiny percentage, to be sure, but vocal enough to get noticed and turn
          some faire-folk off to the SCA.

          Both of these activities are a great deal of fun to be involved in,
          and have the potential to be mutually beneficial to one another.
          Can't we all just get along? ;)

          Grímólfr

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Shmi Skywalker" <shmi85@y...>
          wrote:
          > This isn't a question per se, more like a general comment that I'm
          > hoping to get some responses from. I thought of this in response to
          > one of Justin's responses to the guy who's first contact with SCA
          was
          > the murderer in 91.
          >
          > Last Saturday, I went to this party and a few of my friends who
          work
          > at the michigan ren faire were also there. I was nervous about
          diving
          > into SCA alone, so I asked them if they wanted to come with me, at
          > least to the first meeting this friday. The response I got was
          > incredible. First of all, as employees at a ren faire, I pretty
          > expected them to know about SCA. There are large numbers of people
          > who are in SCA and who work at faires or attend religiously, a lot
          of
          > catalogs or merchants at faires will have 'SCA approved' or
          certified
          > or whatever it is, as a stamp of authenticity, etc etc. I could go
          > on, but I probably don't need to. So, from these two girls who work
          > at faire, I got totally slammed for wanting to be involved in
          > SCA. "Let me tell you, they're just a bunch of people who arent
          > interactive at all, they just have a few people doing stuff and
          > everyone else watches and doesnt do anything at all. if you want to
          > do stuff like that, audition for festival, it's so much better!"
          >
          > i had and still have SO MANY problems with what she said.
          >
          > 1. neither of them have been involved in SCA at all
          >
          > 2. i go to the michigan ren faire quite often and I have NEVER been
          > approached by one of the people who work there, i.e. making it an
          > interactive experience. If anything, in my experience, ren faires
          are
          > sort of like standing on stage while a play is going on. Sure,
          you're
          > right there and everything, but it's rare that any of the actors
          > engage you in conversation as part of the play. SCA, on the other
          > hand, is a totally interactive experience. In many ways, people are
          > almost forced to be more than spectators. Of course, you can talk
          to
          > who you want, and participate in what you want, but at events, garb
          > is required and no "spectators" are allowed, according to the SCA
          > website.
          >
          > 3. obviously, when she mentioned how a few people do stuff and
          > everyone else watches, she was probably talking about combat. But
          > anyone over the age of 18 is allowed to try and become certified in
          > combat, and even that certification doesnt mean you're *good*, it
          > just means you wont hurt other people. As opposed to at faire,
          where
          > there are two guys who come in to joust . . . everyone gets to
          > watch . . . and the joust is obviously pre-arranged, diametrically
          > opposite to the way combat in SCA is run. and, beyond all that, she
          > was totally ignoring the *rest* of SCA. I personally don't have a
          lot
          > of interest in becoming combat certified. I have interests in
          > costuming and bardic arts and some fiber arts . . . it's all A&S
          > stuff. And do I have to sit there and watch while someone sews? Do
          I
          > have to sit there and watch someone recite an epic? I can if I
          *want*
          > to, but I can also go up to the person and ask him/her to teach me
          > how to sew whatever it is that's being made, I can go up to the
          bard
          > afterwards and ask for lessons, I can talk to *anyone* about
          learning
          > things because the whole original mission of SCA was education!
          >
          > ...
          >
          > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't
          even
          > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
          > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
          > between ren faires and SCA . . .
          >
          > ~elizabeth campden~
          > (w00t, i picked a surname that i like..)
        • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
          ... Well, all I can say is, You go, girl!!! I am *really* surprised that they reacted as they did. The Rennies that I ve met have usually been quite cordial
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
            On Wednesday 05 March 2003 22:29, Shmi Skywalker wrote:
            > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't even
            > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
            > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
            > between ren faires and SCA . . .

            Well, all I can say is, "You go, girl!!!"

            I am *really* surprised that they reacted as they did. The Rennies that I've
            met have usually been quite cordial to the SCA. They have their game, we have
            our game, and the world is big enough for both. They are a business, we are
            hobbiests. There's actually a fair number of people who work Ren and play in
            the SCA. And lots of SCAdians go to Ren Faires for fun sometimes.

            These folks need to switch to decaf coffee. :-\

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
            fesswise reversed sable.

            Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
          • Mickey Loft
            Hi all, Well I have been going to Ren Faires for a number of years. To the level that my husband and I are frequently mistaken for players by customers and
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 6, 2003
              Hi all,

              Well I have been going to Ren Faires for a number of years. To the level
              that my husband and I are frequently mistaken for players by customers and
              players alike. We know the directions to the privies and to the stages. We
              even tend to know where the different events are and when even. It is quite
              humerious even.

              We were very uninterested in becoming part of the play though. It was not
              really our style to be characters we did not pick. Anyway. I have noticed a
              distinct attitude about the SCA from the faire folks and the other way
              around. It is humourus sometimes, and sad other times.

              Most of the time it is just two groups that have misunderstood each other
              over the last few years. We are both so very much alike.

              I am sorry your friend has a bad impression of the SCA.

              Marressa Jonsdottir

              _________________________________________________________________
              Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
              http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
            • bronwynmgn@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/6/2003 7:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What a lot of people know about the SCA at RenFaires and such is what they ve been told by
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 9, 2003
                In a message dated 3/6/2003 7:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                > It's kind of funny that I got all riled up by this and I haven't even
                > gone to any meetings or gotten involved at all. But anyway, I just
                > boggled at what she said considering the usually close relationship
                > between ren faires and SCA . . .

                What a "lot of people know" about the SCA at RenFaires and such is what
                they've been told by other people who were told by other people who were told
                by someone who spent 10 minutes at an event and decided they didn't like it
                because it wasn't what they were used to.
                I ran a demo at a miniature wargamers convention this weekend, and ran into
                two diametrically opposed preconceived opinions of the SCA within 24 hours.
                The guy who asked us to do the demo said some of his people had told him the
                SCA wouldn't be authentic enough for what they wanted. And one of our
                Laurels was told to be careful, because the SCA was there and they would be
                nitpicking about her costume not being authentic enough.

                I've heard that all Civ War reenactors are hardcore down to having the
                correct thread count in each fabric of their uniform and only allowing people
                to have very specific roles (like women can't do anything but US Sanitary
                Commision or balls). But the Civ War reenactors I know (who also do SCA)
                include a woman who tucks her very long braid down the back of her jacket
                while portraying an infantryman. I've also heard that all Civ War reenactors
                think the SCA is a joke - but that certainly didn't describe the 10 or so
                that we talked at length with this weekend.

                Brangwayna Morgan

                >
                > ~elizabeth campden~

                I love the name. There is a lady in my shire whose name is Elizabeth
                Spynnere.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iustinos Tekton called Justin
                ... Wouldn t describe the two or three who live near here, who play in both groups depending on their whims, either. Adults are mature enough to realize that
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 10, 2003
                  On Sunday 09 March 2003 20:39, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                  > I've also heard that all Civ War reenactors
                  > think the SCA is a joke - but that certainly didn't describe the 10 or so
                  > that we talked at length with this weekend.

                  Wouldn't describe the two or three who live near here, who play in both
                  groups depending on their whims, either.

                  Adults are mature enough to realize that each club has different rules and
                  that it's okay to choose the one(s) you want to join, without putting down
                  the others because they're not the same. Too bad there are still people
                  out there who are adults only in the chronological sense.

                  Justin

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Iustinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable, on a chief dovetailed Or, two keys
                  fesswise reversed sable.

                  Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
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