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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Newcomer name and lineage

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  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/29/2002 9:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Actually, there is no reason you couldn t go with this time period, other than the fact that
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 30, 2002
      In a message dated 8/29/2002 9:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
      scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:


      > Personally I am in love with the time period in which King Arthur
      > Geoffrey of Monmouth existed 455-470 but know this does not fall in
      > the Middle Ages time period.
      >

      Actually, there is no reason you couldn't go with this time period, other
      than the fact that the documentation can be a bit sparse...I know a number of
      people with Romano-British personas...Academics now really are considering
      what used to be called the "Dark Ages" as part of the early medieval period.

      Is the concept of an English family adopting a Jewish child really feasible
      in any era of the Middle Ages or Renaissance? With all the anti-Jewish
      feeling at various times and places, the establishment of Jewish ghettos,
      etc, would an English family even know (or care) of the existence of a Jewish
      orphan? It seems to me that he would more likely have been taken care of by
      other members of the Jewish community. You're doing a tremendous job of
      building the background info for a really stupendous persona, but I'd hate to
      see it all rest on a serious historical improbability.
      I would think a Jew living and working in England would necessarily
      understand and speak English, and be thoroughly familiar with most English
      manners, if his work led him into any major contact with the English and
      wasn't just something that was used by Jews alone.

      Brangwayna Morgan


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • george marko
      Brangwayna, The character would have been adopted by John and Elizabeth as a baby and brought up English......he would have known very little of jewish
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 30, 2002
        Brangwayna,
        The character would have been adopted by John and Elizabeth as a baby and brought up English......he would have known very little of jewish traditions, or language

        Ezekial Raines
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bronwynmgn@...
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:21 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Newcomer name and lineage


        In a message dated 8/29/2002 9:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:


        > Personally I am in love with the time period in which King Arthur
        > Geoffrey of Monmouth existed 455-470 but know this does not fall in
        > the Middle Ages time period.
        >

        Actually, there is no reason you couldn't go with this time period, other
        than the fact that the documentation can be a bit sparse...I know a number of
        people with Romano-British personas...Academics now really are considering
        what used to be called the "Dark Ages" as part of the early medieval period.

        Is the concept of an English family adopting a Jewish child really feasible
        in any era of the Middle Ages or Renaissance? With all the anti-Jewish
        feeling at various times and places, the establishment of Jewish ghettos,
        etc, would an English family even know (or care) of the existence of a Jewish
        orphan? It seems to me that he would more likely have been taken care of by
        other members of the Jewish community. You're doing a tremendous job of
        building the background info for a really stupendous persona, but I'd hate to
        see it all rest on a serious historical improbability.
        I would think a Jew living and working in England would necessarily
        understand and speak English, and be thoroughly familiar with most English
        manners, if his work led him into any major contact with the English and
        wasn't just something that was used by Jews alone.

        Brangwayna Morgan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      • Justinos Tekton called Justin
        ... What about having the persona be fully Jewish, without the adoption ever happening, but adopting an English pseudonym to hide his/her identity? Justin --
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 30, 2002
          On Friday 30 August 2002 09:21, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
          > I would think a Jew living and working in England would necessarily
          > understand and speak English, and be thoroughly familiar with most English
          > manners, if his work led him into any major contact with the English and
          > wasn't just something that was used by Jews alone.

          What about having the persona be fully Jewish, without the adoption ever
          happening, but adopting an English pseudonym to hide his/her identity?

          Justin

          --
          ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()

          Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
          Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio USA)

          justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/31/2002 9:51:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I understand that that was what you intended - What I was asking was, Is this a plausible
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 1, 2002
            In a message dated 8/31/2002 9:51:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:


            > The character would have been adopted by John and Elizabeth as a baby and
            > brought up English......he would have known very little of jewish
            > traditions, or language
            >
            >

            I understand that that was what you intended - What I was asking was, "Is
            this a plausible story: did English people ever adopt Jewish babies, or even
            know they existed to be adopted?" There was not such a thing as an adoption
            agency back then; most orphaned children would have been raised as a matter
            of course by other family members, other members of the local religious
            community to which they belonged, or at most placed with another family of
            the same religious persuasion through the intermediary of a cleric of the
            religion of their family. I don't see a Jewish rabbi handing a Jewish child
            over to a Christian couple to raise, nor a Christian cleric being involved
            with the adoptions of Jewish orphans.
            The concept of a couple being willing to adopt a child not of their race or
            religion is a very modern one, as is adoption as we understand it today. In
            period, someone might be legally granted wardship over the child (usually an
            heir or heiress of some means) by the courts, but would not necessarily
            consider them as their own child; the ward was someone whose lands they were
            to administer (and often skim as much profit off of as possible), before
            selling the marriage of the child to the highest bidder in terms of
            dowry/dower. People fought over the wardships of children who stood to
            inherit considerable lands and money, but a poor Jewish child? "That's the
            Jews' responsbility!"

            My statement about a Jew being raised in England being able to have a
            thorough grounding in English language, manners, and customs was a suggestion
            of a more plausible way in which a Jewish man would have that knowledge,
            rather than going through an implausible persona story, if it is essential
            that the persona be Jewish in race, but have a good knowledge of English
            manners, customs, and language.

            I think you have the makings a a well-rounded, truly focussed persona story,
            which is rare in the SCA, but basing that persona story on an implausible
            beginning, when there are other ways to have the persona have similar
            knowledge and skills, seems odd. Since it seems that you want the persona to
            have all the advantages of being raised English, I am not sure why you want
            the persona to be Jewish by race, since it does not seem that his Jewishness
            has any bearing on what he actually does in life.

            Brangwayna Morgan


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • george marko
            I figured he would have some jewish background since the name Ezekial is Hebrew...I have not seen the name come up in any english name bases....If it is
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 1, 2002
              I figured he would have some jewish background since the name Ezekial is Hebrew...I have not seen the name come up in any english name bases....If it is alright for him to be full english with no jewish background I have no problem with it...I just wanted to make sure using Ezekial would not create a snag in the naming process..I honestly have grown fond of the name..The Raines surname does have true english heritage..I have found the Coat of Arms (Black Shield w/ Silver Chevron between 3 silver lions rampant) Crest (Silver lion rampant) as well as latin motto (Judicium parium aut leges terrae) that went with it..I thought that using Ezekial as my first name would cause a problem
              My personas basic make up would be born in Kent, England, between 455-470 AD...the time of King Arthur Geoffrey of Monmouth..Grandfather is a knight with the past and previous King, father didnt want it and became a merchant (what kind of merchant still needs to be decided)..Ezekial wants to follow in his grandfathers footsteps, seeing I want to become a fighter and soon to be knight...I know alot has to be filled in especially when it comes to the specfics of the time period..money used, how they told time, manners, skills, historic event, hobbies, and so on..Am I on the right track or do major changes needed to be made? Thank you so much for your help with this Lady Morgan.

              Ezekial Raines
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bronwynmgn@...
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 7:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Newcomer name and lineage


              In a message dated 8/31/2002 9:51:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
              scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:


              > The character would have been adopted by John and Elizabeth as a baby and
              > brought up English......he would have known very little of jewish
              > traditions, or language
              >
              >

              I understand that that was what you intended - What I was asking was, "Is
              this a plausible story: did English people ever adopt Jewish babies, or even
              know they existed to be adopted?" There was not such a thing as an adoption
              agency back then; most orphaned children would have been raised as a matter
              of course by other family members, other members of the local religious
              community to which they belonged, or at most placed with another family of
              the same religious persuasion through the intermediary of a cleric of the
              religion of their family. I don't see a Jewish rabbi handing a Jewish child
              over to a Christian couple to raise, nor a Christian cleric being involved
              with the adoptions of Jewish orphans.
              The concept of a couple being willing to adopt a child not of their race or
              religion is a very modern one, as is adoption as we understand it today. In
              period, someone might be legally granted wardship over the child (usually an
              heir or heiress of some means) by the courts, but would not necessarily
              consider them as their own child; the ward was someone whose lands they were
              to administer (and often skim as much profit off of as possible), before
              selling the marriage of the child to the highest bidder in terms of
              dowry/dower. People fought over the wardships of children who stood to
              inherit considerable lands and money, but a poor Jewish child? "That's the
              Jews' responsbility!"

              My statement about a Jew being raised in England being able to have a
              thorough grounding in English language, manners, and customs was a suggestion
              of a more plausible way in which a Jewish man would have that knowledge,
              rather than going through an implausible persona story, if it is essential
              that the persona be Jewish in race, but have a good knowledge of English
              manners, customs, and language.

              I think you have the makings a a well-rounded, truly focussed persona story,
              which is rare in the SCA, but basing that persona story on an implausible
              beginning, when there are other ways to have the persona have similar
              knowledge and skills, seems odd. Since it seems that you want the persona to
              have all the advantages of being raised English, I am not sure why you want
              the persona to be Jewish by race, since it does not seem that his Jewishness
              has any bearing on what he actually does in life.

              Brangwayna Morgan


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bronwynmgn@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/2/2002 10:52:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 3, 2002
                In a message dated 9/2/2002 10:52:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                <<Thank you so much for your help with this Lady Morgan.>>

                Lady Brangwayna is actually the correct usage, since I don't (and can't by
                SCA rules) claim to hold the Morgan lands...

                > My personas basic make up would be born in Kent, England, between 455-470
                > AD...the time of King Arthur Geoffrey of Monmouth..Grandfather is a knight
                > with the past and previous King, father didnt want it and became a merchant
                > (what kind of merchant still needs to be decided)..Ezekial wants to follow
                > in his grandfathers footsteps, seeing I want to become a fighter and soon
                > to be knight...I know alot has to be filled in especially when it comes to
                > the specfics of the time period..money used, how they told time, manners,
                > skills, historic event, hobbies, and so on..Am I on the right track or do
                > major changes needed to be made? Thank you so much for your help with this
                > Lady Morgan.
                >
                >

                OK, we have a bigger problem here than whether or not you could register the
                name Ezekial Raines. You're not only possibly mixing cultural names, but
                cultural time periods as well.
                Hereditary surnames like Raines were extremely rare, if not totally unheard
                of, in the British Isles in the late 5th century AD. They didn't really come
                into play until at least the end of the 12th century, and even then they were
                not universal. Now, you could possibly still register (or use; names don't
                HAVE to be registered) Ezekial Raines (names are registered based on internal
                consistency of the name, and whether it is more important that it reflect a
                certain culture or a certain time period, and don't have to be justified to
                the persona) and dress and act as a 5th century Romano-Britain, but it would
                be like naming yourself Dweezil Zappa and playing a person from the American
                Revolutionary War era, or an Elizabethan nobleman - the name would be so far
                in the future from the character that it would never have happened. In that
                time period, you would most likely have had either a Celtic name or a Roman
                name. I'm not sure if there were any Jews in England in that time period.

                Also, in that time period the whole concept of the knight barely exists
                except as a mounted soldier; it certainly wasn't established to the point of
                being able to decline a knighthood and turn to another career. Turning down
                or buying your way out of a knighthood is much more a 14th century or later
                thing. In the 5th century, you would either have been a soldier or been
                something else, and not really had the choice one way or the other as you
                felt like it.

                I think you probably need to do some good historical reading on the late 5th
                century in Britain, and then think about whether it is the time period you
                want or the character you want, because the two don't seem to coincide. The
                character you are working on sounds much more like a 14th-16th century
                character. The cultures of the two times are so vastly different that a
                character from one would be drastically out of place in the other.

                Brangwayna Morgan


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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