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Re: [SCA Newcomers] RE: RE: Ancient Greek Persona

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  • Alison Choyce
    That is cool! ... -- ~Alison
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 26, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      That is cool!


      On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bill Toscano <liamstliam@...> wrote:
       



      On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:
       

      This discussion fascinates me, since I chose & have registered a 6th-century Berber [Imazighen or Tamazight] persona.

       

      I was very fortunate that my 'name' passed the registration process on the first try.

       

      As someone previously stated in this discussion, there are some strong similarities between the Berbers of North Africa & the ancient Greeks.  If I recall my research into the Berbers correctly (I'm afraid I've goofed off for a few years - must get back to playing!),  there was interaction between some of the Berber tribal groups & the Greeks before the Etruscans & Romans arose as powers to be dealt with in the Mediterranean.

       

      But please don't quote me on that - I would need to go back & research further.

       

      First of all, SOME of the Berber tribes had garb that was very close to the Grecian "doric" chiton.  Someone else pointed out that some of the Berber tribes still wear such garb to this day.

       

      The Berber artwork - their decorations on their pottery & woven goods such as rugs - is much, much closer to the primitive geometric art of very early Greece.  Visually it's much closer to the geometric symbolisms of the Native Americans of the American Southwest, which proved a bit of a problem when I tried to register my device - I wanted a 'toothed', horizontal black diamond on a red background, but it was rejected on the basis that it looked too much like Hopi or Navajo rugwork! 

       

      And yet I was able to provide a sample of such from Berber artifacts of the period I wanted to position my persona in...  As one of my friends said, there's more to the approval process than just proving the design existed at that time...

       

      In fact, I've often wondered whether the desert southwest Native Americans were influenced by their Spanish conquerors, who may have brought Spanish weaving with designs inspired by Berber geometric art, to that area, as Spain was conquered by groups including Berber Muslims and was ruled for around 100 years by royalty derived from the Berbers or "Moors".

       

      As I understand it from others who have Turkish personas, the geometric designs are very common in earlier Turkish culture, too, so that may have been another source.  Or as a friend of mine pointed out, when humans first begin making scratches for decoration, they tend to begin with geometric marks as such are easier to make.  But then there's the artwork in those caves in southern France...

       

      Damn!  I've practically written a book!

       

      What is it that you are most attracted to, about the Greek culture?  I agree with those who have said, go ahead & create your persona, making sure it's accurate & authentic.  But if I were in your shoes and for some reason couldn't or chose not to create the ancient Greek persona, then I'd make a list of the characteristics that I liked in the ancient Greek culture - persona - and then look around for the closest match.

       

      The Berbers wear similar clothes, but they don't have too much else in common with the Greeks, though for a woman choosing a Middle Eastern type of persona, I'd strongly recommend the Berbers - they were quite egalitarian and equal-minded for the day, when compared to other Middle Eastern cultures around them.  But many of the Berber tribes are nomadic tent dwellers.  Other Berber groups live in mud-brick villages that also bear some resemblance to the adobe works of the American desert southwest - not related, but interesting parallel evolution.

       

      I deliberately positioned my persona just prior to the Muslim invasion, just to be sure, but apparently the Berber Muslims had the custom of including older women of the tribe in tribal councils, as late as the 19th century - of course, it varies from tribe to tribe, depending on how rigidly they cleave to Islam.

       

       And the Berber garb is SO COOL in the summertime!!!

       

      Best of luck with your efforts!!  Zid



       


      From: "Alison Choyce" <greenfaere@...>
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 7:17:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] RE: RE: Ancient Greek Persona

       

      Corpora is firm on the cutoff date at the end of our period, we recreate pre-17th century with a concentration in Medieval and Renaissance western European culture. The beginning date, as well as other cultures included, are found within the mists of time... I have put the quote from Corpora below. Greek is within what we cover, though you may find it worthwhile the section below.

      Cheers,
      Alison
      EK

      Quoth Corpora:

      The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA, Society is a 501(c)3 Educational Not-for-Profit organization devoted to the study of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Most of its activities take place in the context of a social structure adapted from the forms of the European Middle Ages, which allows participants to take a first-hand look at various aspects of the life, culture and technology of the times under study.

      As a living history group, the Society provides an environment in which members can recreate various aspects of the culture and technology of the period, as well as doing more traditional historical research. We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and participate in activities based on the civil and martial skills of the period. These activities recreate aspects of the life and culture of the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE. The dress, pastimes, and above all the chivalric ideals of the period serve to unify our events and activities.

      For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research. However, the further you go from the core of Medieval and Renaissance Europe, the less the environment we offer will resemble what someone of your time and country would find natural or homelike. For example, you can be an Asian or African guest at a European court, but you cannot expect others to share your special interests-like any long-term visitor in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to adapt to the customs you find around you.








      --
      ~Alison
    • sadiradarkstar
      Ooooh, that is a neat group!! Thanks for linking that - I m sure that the person who first asked about the ancient Greek persona will find that VERY useful!!
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 27, 2013
      • 0 Attachment

        Ooooh, that is a neat group!!

         

        Thanks for linking that - I'm sure that the person who first asked about the ancient Greek persona will find that VERY useful!!

         

        I'm going to mark it, myself.

         

        Neat!

        Zid


        From: "Bill Toscano" <liamstliam@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:25:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] RE: RE: Ancient Greek Persona

         



        On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:
         

        This discussion fascinates me, since I chose & have registered a 6th-century Berber [Imazighen or Tamazight] persona.

         

        I was very fortunate that my 'name' passed the registration process on the first try.

         

        As someone previously stated in this discussion, there are some strong similarities between the Berbers of North Africa & the ancient Greeks.  If I recall my research into the Berbers correctly (I'm afraid I've goofed off for a few years - must get back to playing!),  there was interaction between some of the Berber tribal groups & the Greeks before the Etruscans & Romans arose as powers to be dealt with in the Mediterranean.

         

        But please don't quote me on that - I would need to go back & research further.

         

        First of all, SOME of the Berber tribes had garb that was very close to the Grecian "doric" chiton.  Someone else pointed out that some of the Berber tribes still wear such garb to this day.

         

        The Berber artwork - their decorations on their pottery & woven goods such as rugs - is much, much closer to the primitive geometric art of very early Greece.  Visually it's much closer to the geometric symbolisms of the Native Americans of the American Southwest, which proved a bit of a problem when I tried to register my device - I wanted a 'toothed', horizontal black diamond on a red background, but it was rejected on the basis that it looked too much like Hopi or Navajo rugwork! 

         

        And yet I was able to provide a sample of such from Berber artifacts of the period I wanted to position my persona in...  As one of my friends said, there's more to the approval process than just proving the design existed at that time...

         

        In fact, I've often wondered whether the desert southwest Native Americans were influenced by their Spanish conquerors, who may have brought Spanish weaving with designs inspired by Berber geometric art, to that area, as Spain was conquered by groups including Berber Muslims and was ruled for around 100 years by royalty derived from the Berbers or "Moors".

         

        As I understand it from others who have Turkish personas, the geometric designs are very common in earlier Turkish culture, too, so that may have been another source.  Or as a friend of mine pointed out, when humans first begin making scratches for decoration, they tend to begin with geometric marks as such are easier to make.  But then there's the artwork in those caves in southern France...

         

        Damn!  I've practically written a book!

         

        What is it that you are most attracted to, about the Greek culture?  I agree with those who have said, go ahead & create your persona, making sure it's accurate & authentic.  But if I were in your shoes and for some reason couldn't or chose not to create the ancient Greek persona, then I'd make a list of the characteristics that I liked in the ancient Greek culture - persona - and then look around for the closest match.

         

        The Berbers wear similar clothes, but they don't have too much else in common with the Greeks, though for a woman choosing a Middle Eastern type of persona, I'd strongly recommend the Berbers - they were quite egalitarian and equal-minded for the day, when compared to other Middle Eastern cultures around them.  But many of the Berber tribes are nomadic tent dwellers.  Other Berber groups live in mud-brick villages that also bear some resemblance to the adobe works of the American desert southwest - not related, but interesting parallel evolution.

         

        I deliberately positioned my persona just prior to the Muslim invasion, just to be sure, but apparently the Berber Muslims had the custom of including older women of the tribe in tribal councils, as late as the 19th century - of course, it varies from tribe to tribe, depending on how rigidly they cleave to Islam.

         

         And the Berber garb is SO COOL in the summertime!!!

         

        Best of luck with your efforts!!  Zid



         


        From: "Alison Choyce" <greenfaere@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 7:17:19 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] RE: RE: Ancient Greek Persona

         

        Corpora is firm on the cutoff date at the end of our period, we recreate pre-17th century with a concentration in Medieval and Renaissance western European culture. The beginning date, as well as other cultures included, are found within the mists of time... I have put the quote from Corpora below. Greek is within what we cover, though you may find it worthwhile the section below.

        Cheers,
        Alison
        EK

        Quoth Corpora:

        The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA, Society is a 501(c)3 Educational Not-for-Profit organization devoted to the study of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Most of its activities take place in the context of a social structure adapted from the forms of the European Middle Ages, which allows participants to take a first-hand look at various aspects of the life, culture and technology of the times under study.

        As a living history group, the Society provides an environment in which members can recreate various aspects of the culture and technology of the period, as well as doing more traditional historical research. We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and participate in activities based on the civil and martial skills of the period. These activities recreate aspects of the life and culture of the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE. The dress, pastimes, and above all the chivalric ideals of the period serve to unify our events and activities.

        For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research. However, the further you go from the core of Medieval and Renaissance Europe, the less the environment we offer will resemble what someone of your time and country would find natural or homelike. For example, you can be an Asian or African guest at a European court, but you cannot expect others to share your special interests-like any long-term visitor in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to adapt to the customs you find around you.





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