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Heraldry design thoughts, please?

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  • crawfordb30
    Hello! So, I ve been trying to design a device for myself. I ve found each of the different elements in some fashion in my research, but not combined with each
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 16, 2012
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      Hello! So, I've been trying to design a device for myself. I've found each of the different elements in some fashion in my research, but not combined with each other. Since I haven't been able to definitely say whether it's period or not, it keeps driving me into more research where I haven't been able to find anything more yet.

      Since apparently my local group does not currently have someone acting as the official herald to help, I thought I'd put it up here to see what other thoughts were.

      The blazon (if I got it correct) is azure, a fox passant Or maintaining in its mouth a sword bendwise proper and a chief argent.

      I am currently vaguely targeting 14th century England/Scottish lowlands.

      I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have.
      Thanks,
      Ben.
    • bianca_di_alessandro
      Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you. Bianca
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 17, 2012
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        Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you.

        Bianca
      • crawfordb30
        That would be great. Thank you. Ben
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 17, 2012
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          That would be great. Thank you.

          Ben

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you.
          >
          > Bianca
          >
        • Beth Goldsworthy
          Hi Ben, If you re on facebook, you might want to join the SCA Heraldry chat group. They are a wealth of information and eager to work with you. Elzebeth Lady
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 18, 2012
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            Hi Ben,
            If you're on facebook, you might want to join the SCA Heraldry chat group. They are a wealth of information and eager to work with you.
            Elzebeth


            Lady Elzebeth MacGregor
            Pursuivant/herald of Trinovantia Nova,
            herald and defender with the bow of the Good Ship Crimson Star,
            Member of Drachenwald Needlepoint Guild,
            and a maker of garb.



            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "crawfordb30" wrote:

            Hello! So, I've been trying to design a device for myself. I've found each of the different elements in some fashion in my research, but not combined with each other. Since I haven't been able to definitely say whether it's period or not, it keeps driving me into more research where I haven't been able to find anything more yet.

            Since apparently my local group does not currently have someone acting as the official herald to help, I thought I'd put it up here to see what other thoughts were.

            The blazon (if I got it correct) is azure, a fox passant Or maintaining in its mouth a sword bendwise proper and a chief argent.

            I am currently vaguely targeting 14th century England/Scottish lowlands.

            I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have.
            Thanks,
            Ben.
          • bianca_di_alessandro
            I should also point out that a device does not have to be strictly fitting to the practices of a particular time and place to be registerable in the SCA, it
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 18, 2012
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              I should also point out that a device does not have to be strictly fitting to the practices of a particular time and place to be registerable in the SCA, it just needs to follow the general guidelines for period practice, which I believe your device does.

              But if you're more interested in authenticity for your own sake, I'll be glad to forward the responses I get on period styles in specific areas and times.

              Bianca

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "crawfordb30" wrote:

              That would be great. Thank you.

              Ben

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro wrote:


              Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you.

              Bianca
            • bianca_di_alessandro
              I ve been asked to find out where you are (Kingdom and group) so that we can possibly locate a herald near you who can help you with your submission Bianca ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 18, 2012
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                I"ve been asked to find out where you are (Kingdom and group) so that we can possibly locate a herald near you who can help you with your submission

                Bianca

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "crawfordb30" wrote:

                That would be great. Thank you.

                Ben

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro wrote:


                Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you.

                Bianca
              • crawfordb30
                I m in the Barony of Forgotten Sea in the kingdom of Calontir. And yea, as far as I could tell this does fit submission requirements, and I didn t see a
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 18, 2012
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                  I'm in the Barony of Forgotten Sea in the kingdom of Calontir.

                  And yea, as far as I could tell this does fit submission requirements, and I didn't see a conflict in the ordinary. But, I am trying to stay as close to the area and period as I can (having already sidelined one design for this reason).

                  Elzebeth, thanks for pointing out the facebook group; I'll check that out later on tonight.

                  Thank you,
                  Ben.

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro wrote:

                  I"ve been asked to find out where you are (Kingdom and group) so that we can possibly locate a herald near you who can help you with your submission

                  Bianca

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "crawfordb30" wrote:

                  That would be great. Thank you.

                  Ben

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro wrote:


                  Would you mind if I forwarded your request to a heraldry discussion group? They might have more answers for you.

                  Bianca
                • bianca_di_alessandro
                  ... That is a period I have enjoyed studying - so here are a few thoughts. 1) The tinctures he chose are very period (no purpure or vert). 2) One primary
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 18, 2012
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                    Here is one response that I got that seemed to address your question, hope it is helpful:

                    --- In sca_heralds@yahoogroups.com, "rosamond_playfayre" wrote:

                    That is a period I have enjoyed studying - so here are a few thoughts.

                    1) The tinctures he chose are very period (no purpure or vert).
                    2) One primary charge and a subordinary is true to this period (not like later, more crowded devices).
                    3) Posture is acceptable (passant evolved fairly early in history of heraldry).
                    4) Four-legged beast is fine, but fox is a little unusual (the first use of nearly all non-lion beasts and non-eagle birds was in canting arms): If his persona name is similar to fox in English or French, that would be very true to period!
                    5)Beast holding sword in mouth is very unusual that early in period (I think). The tendency was for a rampant animal to hold a sword or other charge: from 20 paces away, would the image be instantly recognizeable to a friend or foe in the midst of battle?

                    Here are some period rolls of arms that are fairly close to the time Ben is considering - list is from Wikipedia, but fairly accurate:
                    Roll of Caerlaverock or Poem of Caerlaverock,[3] 1300, 110 poetry blazons; The Lord Marshal's Roll, 1295, 565 coats; Collins' Roll, 1296, 598 coats; Stirling Roll, 1304, 102 coats; Stepney Roll, 1308; Dunstable Roll, 1334.

                    I recommend Brian look at this site by Brian Timms - some great repaintings and they will help him with period images: http://www.briantimms.net/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm

                    "The blazon (if I got it correct) is azure, a fox passant Or maintaining in its mouth a sword bendwise proper and a chief argent. I am currently vaguely targeting 14th century England/Scottish lowlands.
                    I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have. Thanks,
                    Ben."

                    In Service I Remain,

                    Lady Rosamond Playfayre
                    Herald, Shire of Drakenmere
                    Kingdom of Meridies
                  • bianca_di_alessandro
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 19, 2012
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                      Here are some more responses, on the subject of local heralds (not sure if the email links are going to come through) and also about your design in particular:

                      --- In EKHerEd@yahoogroups.com, Marc <Commander.Truestar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hmm,
                      >
                      > According to Forgotten Seas, their heraldic post
                      > is vacant at the moment, but hey have many close neighbor groups...
                      > Lord Gaston de Lurs is the Herald of Shire of
                      > Calanais Nuadh (gaston.de.lurs@...)
                      > Aston Tor's herald can be reached at herald@...
                      >
                      > There are more on the Kingdom Map, so heralds are close by :D
                      >
                      > Mithgiladan


                      --- In EKHerEd@yahoogroups.com, Alissa Pyrich <alys.mackyntoich@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Still swamped, but I can point him at some on line resources. His design
                      > isn't incredibly Scottish. It's also very uncommon in Anglo-Scots heraldry
                      > for animals to be holding things, unless they have specific jobs, like a
                      > crane in its viligance.
                      >
                      > According to Academy of St. Gabriel Report 2511, some features typical of
                      > period Scots heraldry include:
                      >
                      > * simple, balanced designs
                      > * single charges or sets of three charges
                      > * a group of identical charges around a fess, a bend, or a chevron
                      > * strongly contrasting foreground and background colors; specifically,
                      > combinations of blue, red, or black with white/silver and yellow/gold
                      > * canting, i.e. using a main charge whose name sounds similar to your
                      > surname.
                      >
                      >
                      > The Heraldry Society of Scotland discusses things that make arms
                      > particularly Scottish: http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/distinctive.html
                      >
                      > While this is English rather than Scots, it gives an excellent feel for
                      > period style: http://members.shaw.ca/yagowe/caerlaverock/rollpic.html
                      >
                      > Sorry to link and run,
                      >
                      > Alys
                      >
                    • bianca_di_alessandro
                      Okay, those links were gaston.de.lurs@gmail.com and herald@astontor.forgottensea.org
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 19, 2012
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                        Okay, those links were gaston.de.lurs@... and herald@...

                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Here are some more responses, on the subject of local heralds (not sure if the email links are going to come through) and also about your design in particular:
                        >
                        > --- In EKHerEd@yahoogroups.com, Marc <Commander.Truestar@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hmm,
                        > >
                        > > According to Forgotten Seas, their heraldic post
                        > > is vacant at the moment, but hey have many close neighbor groups...
                        > > Lord Gaston de Lurs is the Herald of Shire of
                        > > Calanais Nuadh (gaston.de.lurs@)
                        > > Aston Tor's herald can be reached at herald@
                        > >
                        > > There are more on the Kingdom Map, so heralds are close by :D
                        > >
                        > > Mithgiladan
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EKHerEd@yahoogroups.com, Alissa Pyrich <alys.mackyntoich@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Still swamped, but I can point him at some on line resources. His design
                        > > isn't incredibly Scottish. It's also very uncommon in Anglo-Scots heraldry
                        > > for animals to be holding things, unless they have specific jobs, like a
                        > > crane in its viligance.
                        > >
                        > > According to Academy of St. Gabriel Report 2511, some features typical of
                        > > period Scots heraldry include:
                        > >
                        > > * simple, balanced designs
                        > > * single charges or sets of three charges
                        > > * a group of identical charges around a fess, a bend, or a chevron
                        > > * strongly contrasting foreground and background colors; specifically,
                        > > combinations of blue, red, or black with white/silver and yellow/gold
                        > > * canting, i.e. using a main charge whose name sounds similar to your
                        > > surname.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The Heraldry Society of Scotland discusses things that make arms
                        > > particularly Scottish: http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/distinctive.html
                        > >
                        > > While this is English rather than Scots, it gives an excellent feel for
                        > > period style: http://members.shaw.ca/yagowe/caerlaverock/rollpic.html
                        > >
                        > > Sorry to link and run,
                        > >
                        > > Alys
                        > >
                        >
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